Derby County v Port Vale - The Matchday Thread

[Jimbo Ram]

17 minutes ago, IslandExile said:

Ok, please let's not allow the crap refereeing cover up the poor footballing performance.

I'm not even concerned about the result, made harder by the referee obviously, or even the individual "mistakes" by Stearman and Collins.

What concerns me is the style of play. We seem to have gone from one extreme to the other. From overplaying to whack it long.

Sure, Warne has yet to settle in himself but I think we're seeing a flavour of what some of us feared. I'll try and be a bit more patient and judge after more games. I'm just a tad nervy.

The midfield balance and personnel are not right and it is difficult to play a system with wing backs when we haven’t really got any.

[VulcanRam]

Anyway, the refereeing performance shouldn’t detract from what was a really poor performance . Mendez laing is about the only outfield player who could say he had a good game.

midfield anonymous yet again. Looked very poor at the back.

worse still, Some of the players just looked half arsed about it

[Ram-Alf]

5 minutes ago, CornwallRam said:

 

Interesting for their first penalty, the West Stand linesman flagged for a corner, which the ref overruled. After that, the linesman didn't flag for anything until the ref had made a decision. I think the linesman thought that the ref was incompetent and wanted to keep out of it.

I'm in the North Stand Corner so can someone clear this up for me please, As I saw it altho from as far away as poss, Nowts given until PV players surround the ref, Lino looks to be pointing for a corner, Lad next to me says he's given a pen, I said was his flag across his chest...he didn't know?‍♀️

Ref then speaks to the lino, Still confused, Then walks towards the spot...still confused...what's he given...then I see it's a penalty, I left thinking the linesman gave the penalty ?‍♀️

I'm annoyed bloody annoyed I can accept being beaten, I can't accept pro players either giving the most stupid of pens away or passing across your own box was this Stearman too?‍♀️The Collins incident again I'm down the other end and my eyes seem to be as bad as that of fool in the middle ?

[Justa]

I was incensed with some of the refs decisions at todays game.

Watching the highlights I can totally understand why the first penalty was given and why Collins was sent off.

Too easy to concentrate on the ref - we have to be better than that.

[PistoldPete]

27 minutes ago, Jimbo Ram said:

For goodness sake, everyone is disappointed that we lost but talk of we should have won/deserved to win is ridiculous. 

Nobody has said that we deserved to win but on balance of play (even playing 10 against 11) we deserved a draw. As others have said , of course we should have won when 1-0 up and controlling the game. A combination of self inflicted damage and ref inflicted , but we shouldn't allow dodgy refs to upset our game, the sending off changed the game. 

[May Contain Nuts]

End to end end at the cost of anything else so far. Entertainment.

Rotherham's defensive record was great though so I live in hope it's a temporary adjustment period rather than what we'll see every week.

Edited October 8, 2022 by Kokosnuss

[Tamworthram]

1 hour ago, uttoxram75 said:

The ref cheated, the fact we were  poor is irrelevant, the ref cheated. 

it’s pointless trying to compete when that happens. 

I would disagree.

I don’t normally criticise the officials but today, they were poor. However, they seem to have got two key decisions right. The second penalty was definitely the right decision and, given Collins reaction, I suspect he did make contact and if so a red card was correct.

We could have been a couple of goals up by half time but we could just have easily been on level terms. I don’t often agree with radio Derby but there are two things they said which I thought were spot on: 1) It contributed but we didn’t lose because of the officials and 2) Port Vale did a job on us.

[HorsforthRam]

As others have said, our main problem is midfield. Doesn’t work defensively or offensively for long enough 

[Tamworthram]

6 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

Nobody has said that we deserved to win but on balance of play (even playing 10 against 11) we deserved a draw. As others have said , of course we should have won when 1-0 up and controlling the game. A combination of self inflicted damage and ref inflicted , but we shouldn't allow dodgy refs to upset our game, the sending off changed the game. 

I don’t think we were really controlling the game (apart from the first 10 minutes) I thought Port Vale were a real handful and far better than Cambridge last week. I turned to the person next to me said I hope Warne knows what to change at half time.

[DavesaRam]

It's amazing how differently people see things at a football match! It seems most people think the Rams were pretty poor, even awful for mot of the match. I saw it that we could have been 2 or 3 up at half time, and all match long Port Vale only threatened our goal 3 times - and one of those wasn't the first penalty, which wasn't even on target. And yes, justice was done by that miss.

And yes as was apoplectic about the ref for most of the match. He was appallingly bad in the first half, but was screwing both side, because he had absolutely no idea what an agenda was. Clearly the EFL put him right on that one at half time. Having said that, Vale should have been down to ten men long before half time. Their number 22 spent virtually the entire match diving to the floor, and should have been carded for it, so his actual yellow card for the foul should have been his second. 

So when he committed that yellow card foul in front of the dug-outs in the second half, he should have been walking off. The ref dodged the issue by playing the advantage, but then failing to go back and deal with the foul afterwards. The first penalty should have been a yellow card for simulation - a very harsh decision, given by the linesman, the second one the ref gave from 30 yards behind the play, as he was for most of his poor decisions. He gave offside following a Derby free-kick from 30 yards behind the play (again) when the lino hadn't seen anything, and had no idea what was going on, until the ref indicated offside, and had to tell him to put his flag up - which he did, pointing straight up into the sky because he still didn't know what was going on.. Again, how I don't know because there were defenders between the Derby players and the goal.

And the Collins incident - Collins was wrestled to the floor, the defender pulling Collins down on top of himself, so regardless of the "afters", it should have been a penalty. 

A penalty to Derby County? Are you being serious, Dave? But he was able to instantaneously give the red card from  - yes, you've guessed it - 30 yards behind the play. No way could he see what had happened, and seemed determined to wade in with his card regardless. But when Collins was then thrown to the floor, what did he do? Nowt. AS he did when Max Birds was tripped running into the area. Come on - that is two very good penalty shouts come to nothing. And when Sibley was wrestled to the ground right near the end, it was somehow a free- kick to Port Vale. Someone reckoned at wasn't yet another penalty denied, but that must come from having aspirations of becoming an EFL match official. What made it worse was the Vale player giving Sibley a playful double slap to the cheek as he got up, rubbing things in - the Vale man knew what had gone on, no doubt. 

The turning point was the decision ignoring the trip on Max Bird in the area - that made it blatantly clear that the match was never going to go our way, as were the vast majority of decisions, and sadly our heads went down from that point onwards. So it was only a matter of time before that 2nd goal went in. And to their credit Vale did take advantage of the extra man.

And about whether the police should get involved for Collins assaulting the Port Vale player - they certainly should get involved with their keep after the match had ended, because he was winding the Derby fans up, and actually told the South Standers to meet him outside - and yes there were some stood near the Vale team coach afterwards to have "words" with him. That is inciting the crowd to violence, which I believe is an arrestable offence.

It is the first match in ages where the officials were escorted off the pitch before any of the players - they normally wait until the Derby players come across to the South Stand so it sounds like were are applauding them off the pitch. Not today - they were running away as soon as they possibly could.

There is a tweet going round showing how the opposition manager met with this ref after a previous match where he had made some awful decisions against Port Vale. Not that we can read anything into this, of course, but it is funny how things turned out today.

I left the ground today disappointed and very angry, but also pleased with how Derby were trying to get things moving forwards every time they got the ball, and were the only team really threatening the goal. If that chance which Knight put wide had gone in, we would have been two up after only 7 minutes, and game over. There were several clearances on or near the goal line. IF their number 22 (and no, I have no intention of bothering to look his name up) had been properly dealt with for his misdemeanours, or if we had been given just on of the three good penalty shouts, we would have won that. And if we hadn't let our heads go down at the appalling decisions going against us, we may well have won. When we are moving forwards, it is not so silky smooth and easy on the eye as it was under Rosenior, but it is one heck of a lot faster and with a whole load of purpose, which to me is much more exciting. There is much to be hopeful about with this team. Stick around guys and stay wit us. I believe we are going somewhere!

[Dava75]

You know the marginal calls aren’t going to go your way when the referee hugs and hi fives the PV player after the warm up ?

[Zag zig]

39 minutes ago, IslandExile said:

Ok, please let's not allow the crap refereeing cover up the poor footballing performance.

I'm not even concerned about the result, made harder by the referee obviously, or even the individual "mistakes" by Stearman and Collins.

What concerns me is the style of play. We seem to have gone from one extreme to the other. From overplaying to whack it long.

Sure, Warne has yet to settle in himself but I think we're seeing a flavour of what some of us feared. I'll try and be a bit more patient and judge after more games. I'm just a tad nervy.

Likewise. Slightly worried we’re still trying to fit square pegs into round holes. Yes Warne has a preference for a back 3, but without Davies and wing backs that are really wingers, we look defensively fragile. On to the Wing backs, I get it’s the manager’s preferred style of play, but are the personnel right?

33 minutes ago, Srg said:

Midfield still an issue. This isn’t a Warne issue, it’s been a problem all season. Bird dangling legs in and too tentative for far too much of games. Hourihane largely anonymous most weeks.

Then when you play 3 at the back and 2 of them are so unbelievably slow, you’re asking them to cover out to the touchline which they can’t do.

Most of our downfall, beyond the referee, was the inability to win headers today. Was 30mins in before Cashin headed the ball in the right direction. Caused so much pressure it was silly. They weren’t a big side, we just lacked any kinder of muscle about us. 

All that said, we win that game with a referee that wasn’t that guy. 

Then the midfield, Warne said in an interview before the game, he doesn’t want holding midfielder’s to defend, but Bird is going to take time to adjust and playing alongside Hourihane they just seem so similar, whilst Knight brings energy, he just seems to be charging around at times, some good runs, some bad. Sibley can’t find enough form or confidence under any manager to start, yet probably has the craft to unlock tight defences in this league.

Think defensively, we need Curtis to stay fit, the use of wingbacks and finding a balance in midfield is going to require patience and acceptance, it’s probably going to be a play off push this year at best. I’ll say it too, Rosenior got criticism for always playing out and no plan b, lets hope Warne thinks hard about 3-5-2 with the players he sometimes has available, as I’m not sure we currently have the team for it.

[Jimbo Ram]

1 minute ago, DavesaRam said:

It's amazing how differently people see things at a football match! It seems most people think the Rams were pretty poor, even awful for mot of the match. I saw it that we could have been 2 or 3 up at half time, and all match long Port Vale only threatened our goal 3 times - and one of those wasn't the first penalty, which wasn't even on target. And yes, justice was done by that miss.

And yes as was apoplectic about the ref for most of the match. He was appallingly bad in the first half, but was screwing both side, because he had absolutely no idea what an agenda was. Clearly the EFL put him right on that one at half time. Having said that, Vale should have been down to ten men long before half time. Their number 22 spent virtually the entire match diving to the floor, and should have been carded for it, so his actual yellow card for the foul should have been his second. 

So when he committed that yellow card foul in front of the dug-outs in the second half, he should have been walking off. The ref dodged the issue by playing the advantage, but then failing to go back and deal with the foul afterwards. The first penalty should have been a yellow card for simulation - a very harsh decision, given by the linesman, the second one the ref gave from 30 yards behind the play, as he was for most of his poor decisions. He gave offside following a Derby free-kick from 30 yards behind the play (again) when the lino hadn't seen anything, and had no idea what was going on, until the ref indicated offside, and had to tell him to put his flag up - which he did, pointing straight up into the sky because he still didn't know what was going on.. Again, how I don't know because there were defenders between the Derby players and the goal.

And the Collins incident - Collins was wrestled to the floor, the defender pulling Collins down on top of himself, so regardless of the "afters", it should have been a penalty. 

A penalty to Derby County? Are you being serious, Dave? But he was able to instantaneously give the red card from  - yes, you've guessed it - 30 yards behind the play. No way could he see what had happened, and seemed determined to wade in with his card regardless. But when Collins was then thrown to the floor, what did he do? Nowt. AS he did when Max Birds was tripped running into the area. Come on - that is two very good penalty shouts come to nothing. And when Sibley was wrestled to the ground right near the end, it was somehow a free- kick to Port Vale. Someone reckoned at wasn't yet another penalty denied, but that must come from having aspirations of becoming an EFL match official. What made it worse was the Vale player giving Sibley a playful double slap to the cheek as he got up, rubbing things in - the Vale man knew what had gone on, no doubt. 

The turning point was the decision ignoring the trip on Max Bird in the area - that made it blatantly clear that the match was never going to go our way, as were the vast majority of decisions, and sadly our heads went down from that point onwards. So it was only a matter of time before that 2nd goal went in. And to their credit Vale did take advantage of the extra man.

And about whether the police should get involved for Collins assaulting the Port Vale player - they certainly should get involved with their keep after the match had ended, because he was winding the Derby fans up, and actually told the South Standers to meet him outside - and yes there were some stood near the Vale team coach afterwards to have "words" with him. That is inciting the crowd to violence, which I believe is an arrestable offence.

It is the first match in ages where the officials were escorted off the pitch before any of the players - they normally wait until the Derby players come across to the South Stand so it sounds like were are applauding them off the pitch. Not today - they were running away as soon as they possibly could.

There is a tweet going round showing how the opposition manager met with this ref after a previous match where he had made some awful decisions against Port Vale. Not that we can read anything into this, of course, but it is funny how things turned out today.

I left the ground today disappointed and very angry, but also pleased with how Derby were trying to get things moving forwards every time they got the ball, and were the only team really threatening the goal. If that chance which Knight put wide had gone in, we would have been two up after only 7 minutes, and game over. There were several clearances on or near the goal line. IF their number 22 (and no, I have no intention of bothering to look his name up) had been properly dealt with for his misdemeanours, or if we had been given just on of the three good penalty shouts, we would have won that. And if we hadn't let our heads go down at the appalling decisions going against us, we may well have won. When we are moving forwards, it is not so silky smooth and easy on the eye as it was under Rosenior, but it is one heck of a lot faster and with a whole load of purpose, which to me is much more exciting. There is much to be hopeful about with this team. Stick around guys and stay wit us. I believe we are going somewhere!

Bit one sided that Dave ?

[kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong]

Quite possibly the worst refereeing I've ever seen combined with players who are miles behind with their fitness left the team unable to press or win second balls effectively.

Having said that we should have been 2 or 3 up by halftime 

This is going to be a longer haul project than we perhaps expected after the first game.

Edited October 8, 2022 by kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong

[RoyMac5]

4 minutes ago, HorsforthRam said:

As others have said, our main problem is midfield. Doesn’t work defensively or offensively for long enough 

 

[jono]

48 minutes ago, Rampant said:

In what way do you think he cheated? I'm not necessarily disagreeing with your sentiment but which decisions do you feel he got wrong?

I can’t comment much on the “controversial” ones, just too far away and in a jumble of legs and bodies I can’t swear black and white what happened, let alone make a snap decision that a ref has to make. The only one that I got a reasonable look at was Stearmans hand ball. He certainly had his arm up in completely the wrong place, and right or wrong with the decision, he was courting disaster. I await countless stills of Collo’s sending off before casting judgment. I Hope Collo didn’t have a red mist  moment, but it happens. Silly, costly but eventually forgivable given suitable apologies. Or did the PV defender cheat and feign injury / contact. ?  Unforgivable in my world, by any player on any team. All will be revealed in due course I suppose, but until the evidence is in there’s little else to say.
 

That said, I saw 2 distinct 2 handed pushes where the ref was in the same LOS viewpoint as me but 40 yards closer and he didn’t give them. Why ? There were at least two backing in / push the attacker cases where we were penalised but we’re so clearly  the wronged party it was laughable. I saw NML seemingly fouled and a free kick given against, eh ? I saw a linesman ignore a player 15 yards offside. (Tbf sun in his eyes) I saw the Sibbo incident at the end where no way on earth could he have given it against us even if Sibbo made a meal. .. But he did. I saw Sibbo buy a foul that he shouldn’t have got, I saw Stearman pulled down by the leg but for some reason it ended in us conceding a free kick - all with the ref well positioned. Such a shame we can’t have a rousing rendition of “where’s your father” 

We were good for 20 minutes in the first half and for the first 10 mins of the second. After that we were scrappy and Port Vale worked incredibly hard. Honestly, they out fought us. We weren’t a well oiled machine, we were disjointed. Birdy looked off it, Hourihan slows the game down and today didn’t look like he had a game changing moment in him. Our midfield was bereft of bite for huge patches of the game. 
 

[PistoldPete]

10 minutes ago, DavesaRam said:

It's amazing how differently people see things at a football match! It seems most people think the Rams were pretty poor, even awful for mot of the match. I saw it that we could have been 2 or 3 up at half time, and all match long Port Vale only threatened our goal 3 times - and one of those wasn't the first penalty, which wasn't even on target. And yes, justice was done by that miss.

And yes as was apoplectic about the ref for most of the match. He was appallingly bad in the first half, but was screwing both side, because he had absolutely no idea what an agenda was. Clearly the EFL put him right on that one at half time. Having said that, Vale should have been down to ten men long before half time. Their number 22 spent virtually the entire match diving to the floor, and should have been carded for it, so his actual yellow card for the foul should have been his second. 

So when he committed that yellow card foul in front of the dug-outs in the second half, he should have been walking off. The ref dodged the issue by playing the advantage, but then failing to go back and deal with the foul afterwards. The first penalty should have been a yellow card for simulation - a very harsh decision, given by the linesman, the second one the ref gave from 30 yards behind the play, as he was for most of his poor decisions. He gave offside following a Derby free-kick from 30 yards behind the play (again) when the lino hadn't seen anything, and had no idea what was going on, until the ref indicated offside, and had to tell him to put his flag up - which he did, pointing straight up into the sky because he still didn't know what was going on.. Again, how I don't know because there were defenders between the Derby players and the goal.

And the Collins incident - Collins was wrestled to the floor, the defender pulling Collins down on top of himself, so regardless of the "afters", it should have been a penalty. 

A penalty to Derby County? Are you being serious, Dave? But he was able to instantaneously give the red card from  - yes, you've guessed it - 30 yards behind the play. No way could he see what had happened, and seemed determined to wade in with his card regardless. But when Collins was then thrown to the floor, what did he do? Nowt. AS he did when Max Birds was tripped running into the area. Come on - that is two very good penalty shouts come to nothing. And when Sibley was wrestled to the ground right near the end, it was somehow a free- kick to Port Vale. Someone reckoned at wasn't yet another penalty denied, but that must come from having aspirations of becoming an EFL match official. What made it worse was the Vale player giving Sibley a playful double slap to the cheek as he got up, rubbing things in - the Vale man knew what had gone on, no doubt. 

The turning point was the decision ignoring the trip on Max Bird in the area - that made it blatantly clear that the match was never going to go our way, as were the vast majority of decisions, and sadly our heads went down from that point onwards. So it was only a matter of time before that 2nd goal went in. And to their credit Vale did take advantage of the extra man.

And about whether the police should get involved for Collins assaulting the Port Vale player - they certainly should get involved with their keep after the match had ended, because he was winding the Derby fans up, and actually told the South Standers to meet him outside - and yes there were some stood near the Vale team coach afterwards to have "words" with him. That is inciting the crowd to violence, which I believe is an arrestable offence.

It is the first match in ages where the officials were escorted off the pitch before any of the players - they normally wait until the Derby players come across to the South Stand so it sounds like were are applauding them off the pitch. Not today - they were running away as soon as they possibly could.

There is a tweet going round showing how the opposition manager met with this ref after a previous match where he had made some awful decisions against Port Vale. Not that we can read anything into this, of course, but it is funny how things turned out today.

I left the ground today disappointed and very angry, but also pleased with how Derby were trying to get things moving forwards every time they got the ball, and were the only team really threatening the goal. If that chance which Knight put wide had gone in, we would have been two up after only 7 minutes, and game over. There were several clearances on or near the goal line. IF their number 22 (and no, I have no intention of bothering to look his name up) had been properly dealt with for his misdemeanours, or if we had been given just on of the three good penalty shouts, we would have won that. And if we hadn't let our heads go down at the appalling decisions going against us, we may well have won. When we are moving forwards, it is not so silky smooth and easy on the eye as it was under Rosenior, but it is one heck of a lot faster and with a whole load of purpose, which to me is much more exciting. There is much to be hopeful about with this team. Stick around guys and stay wit us. I believe we are going somewhere!

I agree with you about the ref and lino being extremely poor Dave but really I thought we were quite poor too. We gifted them the  goals. 

[MickD]

1 hour ago, PistoldPete said:

It was in the penalty area. 

It was in the corner quadrant when the holding happened.  He should have warned the players and the allowed the corner.

[PistoldPete]

2 minutes ago, MickD said:

It was in the corner quadrant when the holding happened.  He should have warned the players and the allowed the corner.

He gave a free kick to Port Vale.  The foul was on Sibley. This is what the ref did most of the game.  

[GenBr]

1 hour ago, Jimbo Ram said:

But he was signed during the transfer window that is now closed.

Which reopens in January, no? Which is what all of the comments were talking about...