Paul Warne appointed as Head Coach

[DB83]

3 hours ago, Andicis said:

i) Rosenior did not win 7 league games.

ii) In Warne's first few games he had some of the tougher games too as in the first 12, he had to play Ipswich away, Portsmouth away when they were flying and the Wendies.

iii) He (DB83 EDIT: Warne) also didn't get a preseason to get to know the players and was thrown straight into the action.

iv) How do you know Rosenior put this squad together and Rooney had no influence prior to that on summer plans?? 

v) Of course nobody can say whether Rosenior would have improved the form, but we didn't look capable of getting a win away for love or money or really capable of scoring many goals or creating chances. 

i) Correct. He won 4 league games from 9. Exactly the same as Warne in his first 9 league games.

ii) This is entirely objective. Also, the Sheff Wed game was not in the first 9 League games (it was Warne's 10th league game in charge). Please be consistent if you want to criticise me for including first team games in the FA Cup, EFL Cup, and EFL Trophy in my statistics. Personally, I think those competitions are important as well.

iii) Because of course Rosenior had the perfect smooth and stress-free pre-season, right??

iv) I'm sure Rooney did have some influence, but why shouldn't Rosenior leverage the influence of a Derby manager who was so loved that he was awarded Freedom of the City. The point is that most of the players who are doing so well right now were signed when Rosenior was in charge. Why are you so determined to discredit his role here??

v) This is your opinion of course but I think it is utter nonsense. We won at Mansfield (yes I know, ELF Cup, but Warne couldn't win there in the EFL Trophy), and can you seriously re-watch the games at Charlton and Fleetwood and claim that "we didn't look capable of getting a win away for love or money or really capable of scoring many goals or creating chances". I totally disagree with that, I think we created many chances in both of games and could easily have emerged victorious.

I am not criticising Warne (or indeed you!!). I think he's doing an amazing job, and I hope it can continue for the rest of the season and beyond. I just don't understand people like yourself who seem so determined to downplay and undermine the role that Rosenior has had in our current success.

[DB83]

23 minutes ago, Caerphilly Ram said:

My bad for not reading back further! I just took the post at face value, sorry. 

No need to apologise!! After all, it's all just our own opinions ?

[DB83]

32 minutes ago, Brailsford Ram said:

Stick to league games, under Rosenior we played four, drawing two, losing two and winning none.

The draws at Morecambe and Burton were while had started the current unbeaten run but it was still a transitional period from Rosenior's to Warne's system. Since then, results suggest we may have completed the transitional period and winning games where previously we might have drawn them has now become a habit. The next few weeks will give us a better idea as to whether or not that is true. We now average two points per game under Paul Warne which over a season usually ensures automatic promotion. To my mind we never looked like achieving that under Rosenior under whom we did not face Ipswich, Plymouth, Sheffield Wednesday or Bolton - just Barnsley who now are sixth.

I barely disagree with anything you say. But, were the Charlton, Shrewsbury and Fleetwood away games not a transitional period from "our club is dead" to "we still exist and can compete"?? I think Rosenior deserves the benefit of a transitional period too (the Lincoln away game was obviously bad though).

Also we did face Plymouth under Rosenior, and we lost in the last minute due to a catastrophic Cashin error.

My only point is that we started decently under Rosenior, and I will stand up to anyone who tries to downplay his role in our success this season.

Edited January 25, 2023 by DB83

[Andicis]

28 minutes ago, DB83 said:

i) Correct. He won 4 league games from 9. Exactly the same as Warne in his first 9 league games.

ii) This is entirely objective. Also, the Sheff Wed game was not in the first 9 League games (it was Warne's 10th league game in charge). Please be consistent if you want to criticise me for including first team games in the FA Cup, EFL Cup, and EFL Trophy in my statistics. Personally, I think those competitions are important as well.

iii) Because of course Rosenior had the perfect smooth and stress-free pre-season, right??

iv) I'm sure Rooney did have some influence, but why shouldn't Rosenior leverage the influence of a Derby manager who was so loved that he was awarded Freedom of the City. The point is that most of the players who are doing so well right now were signed when Rosenior was in charge. Why are you so determined to discredit his role here??

v) This is your opinion of course but I think it is utter nonsense. We won at Mansfield (yes I know, ELF Cup, but Warne couldn't win there in the EFL Trophy), and can you seriously re-watch the games at Charlton and Fleetwood and claim that "we didn't look capable of getting a win away for love or money or really capable of scoring many goals or creating chances". I totally disagree with that, I think we created many chances in both of games and could easily have emerged victorious.

I am not criticising Warne (or indeed you!!). I think he's doing an amazing job, and I hope it can continue for the rest of the season and beyond. I just don't understand people like yourself who seem so determined to downplay and undermine the role that Rosenior has had in our current success.

The pizza cup is not important. The results are almost entirely meaningless. It's a game to play youth and try out different things, winning or losing doesn't really matter. I find it unlikely you think that or the very early stages of the Carabao are important.

It's not so much that I'm determined to discredit Rosenior, more that people keep making claims that he was integral to recruitment when there is little evidence to back the claim up. Most of the groundwork would have been done long before Rosenior was interim head coach as we knew long before our position.

Again, I'm not going to credit anyone with pizza cup wins. I can't remember the exact details of either of those games, but that was the overwhelming feeling I had at the time. I didn't have much faith in us winning away under Rosenior at any point.  A quick scan of Google tells me we had 2 shots on target Vs Charlton but that it was a somewhat even game. Almost certainly should have beaten Fleetwood, but we didn't. Shrewsbury and Lincoln were abject.

I don't think Rosenior has had more than a minor role in our success personally. I don't believe he was the massively responsible party for recruitment maybe he was, but I struggle to believe it wasn't months of planning in advance. What is there to downplay? From a performance point of view, not great. Whether you believe he somehow recruited all of these players by himself is not really public knowledge.

A final note to sign off on would be to question why if you are so well intended you would deliberately have chosen misleading statistics on your original post? Not exactly supportive of the current manager is it?

Edited January 26, 2023 by Andicis

[kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong]

24 minutes ago, DB83 said:

I barely disagree with anything you say. But, were the Charlton, Shrewsbury and Fleetwood away games not a transitional period from "our club is dead" to "we still exist and can compete"?? I think Rosenior deserves the benefit of a transitional period too (the Lincoln away game was obviously bad though).

Also we did face Plymouth under Rosenior, and we lost in the last minute due to a catastrophic Cashin error.

My only point is that we started decently under Rosenior, and I will stand up to anyone who tries to downplay his role in our success this season.

Why,who cares now,it's the distant past.

Onwards and upwards

Edited January 26, 2023 by kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong

[uttoxram75]

I think the world of Liam Rosenoir, he did nothing but good for Derby County FC. I wish him all the best at Hull City.

I think that Paul Warne is doing a great job at Derby.

It is possible to have both the above opinions.

[DB83]

4 hours ago, Andicis said:

The pizza cup is not important. The results are almost entirely meaningless. It's a game to play youth and try out different things, winning or losing doesn't really matter. I find it unlikely you think that or the very early stages of the Carabao are important.

It's not so much that I'm determined to discredit Rosenior, more that people keep making claims that he was integral to recruitment when there is little evidence to back the claim up. Most of the groundwork would have been done long before Rosenior was interim head coach as we knew long before our position.

Again, I'm not going to credit anyone with pizza cup wins. I can't remember the exact details of either of those games, but that was the overwhelming feeling I had at the time. I didn't have much faith in us winning away under Rosenior at any point.  A quick scan of Google tells me we had 2 shots on target Vs Charlton but that it was a somewhat even game. Almost certainly should have beaten Fleetwood, but we didn't. Shrewsbury and Lincoln were abject.

I don't think Rosenior has had more than a minor role in our success personally. I don't believe he was the massively responsible party for recruitment maybe he was, but I struggle to believe it wasn't months of planning in advance. What is there to downplay? From a performance point of view, not great. Whether you believe he somehow recruited all of these players by himself is not really public knowledge.

A final note to sign off on would be to question why if you are so well intended you would deliberately have chosen misleading statistics on your original post? Not exactly supportive of the current manager is it?

I'm sorry you don't feel that the EFL Cup or EFL Trophy are important. I utterly disagree with that.

Did you see the packed City Ground tonight for the EFL Cup semi-final first leg?? Forest fans were so deflated to have lost that match (lol). Did you hear Bolton fans last weekend singing about going to Wembley?? They are still only in the EFL Trophy semi-final, but they clearly want to be there in the final (and before you call them a tin-pot club, they were knocking Atletico Madrid out of Europe not that long ago). Paul Warne even won the EFL Trophy last season, so don't tell me he doesn't think it matters.

Were you there when Derby beat Stoke City in the quarter-final and Manchester United in the first leg of the semi-final of the EFL Cup back in 2008/2009?? Definitely amongst the top nights this century. And my grandparents regularly used to talk about the BEST EVER atmosphere at the Baseball Ground, which was a League Cup replay win against Chelsea (3-1) back in 1968. The whole Clough and Taylor era arguably began that night. And I know others on this forum will remember that match. That's how important the EFL Cup is.

So, this is my response to your first (two line) paragraph. You are wrong. The EFL Cup and EFL Trophy are important. I may or may not respond to your other four paragraphs tomorrow. In the meantime, please feel free to tell me the ("deliberately misleading") facts I've quoted that are wrong. I'm supportive of Warne. I just cannot understand why you (and others) are so unable to appreciate the vital role that Rosenior has played in our success this season.

Edited January 26, 2023 by DB83

[Crewton]

As I said at the time, I had sympathy for Rosenior when he was dismissed because the team was at the start of a transitional season and he was still trying to get his philosophy across to the players. The obvious shortcoming to me was the insistence on playing out from the back, which I felt was both risky and restrictive in making swift transitions from defence to attack and making the most of what pace we did have in the team. Maybe he would have modified that approach over time, we'll never know, but I think it was clear to most that we needed to mix it up more. I didn't envisage that under LR we'd be chasing the top 2 by the end of January, so for me, at the moment, Warne has brought an improvement in form and a clarity and simplicity to our football. After trying his preferred formation, he's shown pragmatism by changing it to suit the players at his disposal. There's been games that have been a tough watch, but gradually we've evolved into a more effective team and the spirit is formidable. 

Ultimately, there's really nothing to criticise Rosenior for, but I'm certainly happy with the direction that Warne is taking us. 

 

[ram59]

Results wise, LR was in charge for too few games, to make any meaningful comparison. The away performances weren't as bad as the few results and the home performances weren't as good as the few results. I suspect that if LR was still in charge, we would still be in the play off positions.

However, as much as I admire the man, his tactics used to drive me crazy and time and time again, he would come out and say not to blame the players because they were only doing what he said and that he wasn't changing his ways any time soon. PW has shown more adaptability than many managers and it's refreshing to see Derby play with pace and energy, without losing the skill factor. Some of our recent goals have been delightful team goals.

[Ram-Alf]

9 hours ago, DB83 said:

How are draws at Morecambe, Burton and Torquay any better than draws at Shrewsbury and Fleetwood though?? All I'm saying is that I think our away record would have improved under Rosenior in the same way that it has done under Warne. It's impossible to know, of course, but after the nightmare of last season I don't think 1W 2D 2L from the first 5 away matches is as horrific as people make it out to be.

They're not as they're all draws, The defining factor is we scored goals in those games, You only need to look at our goals for column to see we're getting players in more forward positions and scoring, While under LR that took an age to get the same players in those positions.

Possession football under LR was turgid to watch for me, It was like watching the Chuckle Brothers..."to you to me" awful stuff imo, But you keep banging the LR drum if it makes you sleep better aye  

[Srg]

1 minute ago, The Last Post said:

They're not as they're all draws, The defining factor is we scored goals in those games, You only need to look at our goals for column to see we're getting players in more forward positions and scoring, While under LR that took an age to get the same players in those positions.

Possession football under LR was turgid to watch for me, It was like watching the Chuckle Brothers..."to you to me" awful stuff imo, But you keep banging the LR drum if it makes you sleep better aye  

Actually scored joint most goals in the country in 2023. Odd, but true. 

[Wolfie]

9 hours ago, DB83 said:

We've got better since then, but we may well have got better with Rosenior still in charge too. The desperation of people on here to prove that Rosenior was rubbish is just so disappointing IMO. We are where we are now because of a) great player recruitment by Rosenior and b) good team improvement (eventually) by Warne, but it isn't clear to me that b) couldn't also have been achieved by Rosenior. That's all I'm saying.

I've literally seen nobody saying that.

[sage]

16 minutes ago, ram59 said:

Results wise, LR was in charge for too few games, to make any meaningful comparison. The away performances weren't as bad as the few results and the home performances weren't as good as the few results. I suspect that if LR was still in charge, we would still be in the play off positions.

However, as much as I admire the man, his tactics used to drive me crazy and time and time again, he would come out and say not to blame the players because they were only doing what he said and that he wasn't changing his ways any time soon. PW has shown more adaptability than many managers and it's refreshing to see Derby play with pace and energy, without losing the skill factor. Some of our recent goals have been delightful team goals.

PW has also said don't blame the players if they are following my instructions. 

As Cloughie used to say, 3 points shuts everyone up.

 

[TomTom92]

Thought the comparisons were crass when Warne was appointed and they’re even worse now it’s january. 
 
I think LR must be thanked for his efforts and for assembling a decent team with the restrictions in place. He also managed to sign “good characters” which PW also rates highly. 
 
We’ll never know what LR would or could’ve achieved if he’d been given a full season. For me the football was slow and I think we’d have finished 6th at best. But as I say I’m not psychic so my opinion is irrelevant.

One thing everyone can agree on is that the team are on red hot form at the moment and at the moment the PW appointment is looking a masterstroke by Clowes.

[sage]

9 hours ago, Andicis said:

The pizza cup is not important. The results are almost entirely meaningless. It's a game to play youth and try out different things, winning or losing doesn't really matter. I find it unlikely you think that or the very early stages of the Carabao are important.

It's not so much that I'm determined to discredit Rosenior, more that people keep making claims that he was integral to recruitment when there is little evidence to back the claim up. Most of the groundwork would have been done long before Rosenior was interim head coach as we knew long before our position.

Again, I'm not going to credit anyone with pizza cup wins. I can't remember the exact details of either of those games, but that was the overwhelming feeling I had at the time. I didn't have much faith in us winning away under Rosenior at any point.  A quick scan of Google tells me we had 2 shots on target Vs Charlton but that it was a somewhat even game. Almost certainly should have beaten Fleetwood, but we didn't. Shrewsbury and Lincoln were abject.

I don't think Rosenior has had more than a minor role in our success personally. I don't believe he was the massively responsible party for recruitment maybe he was, but I struggle to believe it wasn't months of planning in advance. What is there to downplay? From a performance point of view, not great. Whether you believe he somehow recruited all of these players by himself is not really public knowledge.

A final note to sign off on would be to question why if you are so well intended you would deliberately have chosen misleading statistics on your original post? Not exactly supportive of the current manager is it?

Not determined to discredit him? Are you my ex wife's divorce lawyer?

Most if not all of the ex players said it was Rosenoir who kept speaking to them through the summer and persuaded them to come when higher wages were often available elsewhere.

Both LR and PW (so far) did the jobs asked of them excellently.

How hard is that to accept?

[RoyMac5]

10 hours ago, DB83 said:

How are draws at Morecambe, Burton and Torquay any better than draws at Shrewsbury and Fleetwood though?? All I'm saying is that I think our away record would have improved under Rosenior in the same way that it has done under Warne. It's impossible to know, of course, but after the nightmare of last season I don't think 1W 2D 2L from the first 5 away matches is as horrific as people make it out to be.

Do you think we're looking the same team as we did under Rosenior? We started the season like a house on fire and then our play got worse. Whereas under Warne we play differently and we're getting better.

So, lovely as Rosenior was, I see little evidence that he would have got us winning away matches like we do now.

Edited January 26, 2023 by RoyMac5

[Eddie]

10 hours ago, DB83 said:

Why are you assuming that the team wouldn't have gotten better over time under Rosenior though?? Yes, 14 points from 9 league games under Rosenior, but 15 points from the first 9 league games under Warne. Hardly a massive improvement, was it?? We've got better since then, but we may well have got better with Rosenior still in charge too. The desperation of people on here to prove that Rosenior was rubbish is just so disappointing IMO. We are where we are now because of a) great player recruitment by Rosenior and b) good team improvement (eventually) by Warne, but it isn't clear to me that b) couldn't also have been achieved by Rosenior. That's all I'm saying.

 

Well, I think that we sacked Tim Ward, replacing him with Hartlepool's manager, a little too early.

Who's to know how well his team would have done the following season. It's one thing lauding Clough over a 5-1 victory over Cardiff and doing the double over champions QPR, but we finished one place lower than the previous season under Ward.

 

Three statisticians were out hunting when they saw a deer.

The first fired, and missed to the left.

The second fired, and missed to the right.

The third one said "We got it!"

 

If ifs and ands were pots and pans, there'd be no work for tinkers' hands.

 

[RoyMac5]

Don't subscribe so can't tell you what it says.

 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, RoyMac5 said:

Don't subscribe so can't tell you what it says.

I've sent you a pm.

[RoyMac5]

"...Curtis Davies led a rendition of Derby's iconic chant after Tuesday's night game, but it may be some time before we see Warne follow suit.

Derby's head coach said he could be persuaded to do the bounce if they are promoted as his team continue to soar at the top of League One.

But after the win against Port Vale and back in the dressing room, Warne loudly did his own rendition - while he was going to the toilet.

"It was quite calm after the game," he said. "I spoke, then Richie Barker spoke and went full coach mode so I was having a waz in the urinals and I started singing 'if you don't do the bounce, if you don't do the bounce then you're a red'.

"I was having great fun and the players just booed him off! The next edition of Rams TV should be quite good because the cameras were in there."