World Cup Qatar

[Mr Tibbs]

I think if Sven managed to get a tune out of the same sort of average players then maybe I'd agree to the sentiments being echo'ed in here but he had an absolute luxury of talent at his disposal IMO. He could hardly get a tune out of world class ones. That and he was a supposed top rated manager, he had pedigree. Maybe all those circumstances made his job harder but he inherited a team full of aging Premier League greats that underachieved which were then displaced by the greatest set of players the team has had in my lifetime, which also underachieved. 

Southgate, who's never done anything at club level and probably never will, took a team of players who have never been fancied and turned them into something greater than the sum of its parts. I think it's easy to be critical because of our finishes in the last two tournaments but in 2018 we had a midfield three of Lingard, Henderson and Ashley Young... that was not a great team. 

I'd argue this is his best squad so far so the jury's really out this winter, of course. I think the way we've played the last two tournaments have been to our strengths, albeit the final vs Italy we missed an opportunity to get after them more I admit. Not sure he'll get away with playing the same this tournament when players like Rice, Bellingham, Mount, Foden and Grealish are all coming to a prime age.

It's time to let them play. 

 

[Leeds Ram]

There's a reasonable argument to say if england had played a modern 4-3-3 under Sven then we win at least 1 tournament possibly 2 with the talent we had at our disposal. Southgate has got a very good squad, not as good as Sven had but he's produced good results. I have a bad feeling this is where he will falter though. I hope I'm wrong but can see us falling in the last 16 quite easily given who he's selected and how we're playing. 

[kevinhectoring]

14 hours ago, JoetheRam said:

Southgate has got us further than we did in 2002

He’s the best media face for the FA that we’ve seen in years. Because he’s politically correct, plenty smart enough and has loads of integrity. When it comes to managing the team on the pitch, he’s no better than Wayne Rooney 

[kevinhectoring]

On 12/11/2022 at 08:58, BondJovi said:

My bigger concern with the squad is the number of out of form/lacking match sharpness players we have.

I thought Maguire looked very poor against Villa on Thursday. Late to many challenges. Phillips won't be remotely match fit, neither will Walker. Kane is already 'tired'

Not sure Sterling or Grealish are doing enough currently. Rashford seems to have rediscovered himself though.

Southgate will stick to his favourites so half the squad won't get involved. 

I just don't sense that this world cup carries the magnitude it normally does. 

At this level you don’t need many to be performing miracles. Given what we’ve seen recently, it might be Foden’s time ...

Edited November 14, 2022 by kevinhectoring

[Bris Vegas]

6 hours ago, Mr Tibbs said:

I think if Sven managed to get a tune out of the same sort of average players then maybe I'd agree to the sentiments being echo'ed in here but he had an absolute luxury of talent at his disposal IMO. He could hardly get a tune out of world class ones. That and he was a supposed top rated manager, he had pedigree. Maybe all those circumstances made his job harder but he inherited a team full of aging Premier League greats that underachieved which were then displaced by the greatest set of players the team has had in my lifetime, which also underachieved. 

Southgate, who's never done anything at club level and probably never will, took a team of players who have never been fancied and turned them into something greater than the sum of its parts. I think it's easy to be critical because of our finishes in the last two tournaments but in 2018 we had a midfield three of Lingard, Henderson and Ashley Young... that was not a great team. 

I'd argue this is his best squad so far so the jury's really out this winter, of course. I think the way we've played the last two tournaments have been to our strengths, albeit the final vs Italy we missed an opportunity to get after them more I admit. Not sure he'll get away with playing the same this tournament when players like Rice, Bellingham, Mount, Foden and Grealish are all coming to a prime age.

It's time to let them play. 

 

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not a huge Sven fan or anything. 

But ultimately in 2002 we lost to eventual winners Brazil who were simply better than us while in 2004 we lost to hosts Portugal on penalties and again in 2006 where we played a large chunk of the game with 10 men.

Did they really underachieve considering the circumstances?

Also, what is the difference between losing to eventual winners at the last 16 stage or in the final? Ultimately it’s the same isn’t it? 

England have a lot of good players. But would you say any of our current players are among the best players for their respective clubs?

I think only Harry Kane fits in to that category. 

I often thinK of English players as the water carriers in their respective clubs. I’m probably being harsh. 

 

 

[Day]

5 hours ago, Bris Vegas said:

England have a lot of good players. But would you say any of our current players are among the best players for their respective clubs?

I think only Harry Kane fits in to that category. 

Bellingham, Trent AA, Trippier, Foden, Maddison, Wilson…..and Mount, Saka borderline.

They are up there as key players in their respective teams.

[Srg]

6 minutes ago, David said:

Bellingham, Trent AA, Trippier, Foden, Maddison, Wilson…..and Mount, Saka borderline.

They are up there as key players in their respective teams.

Basically a starting XI, bar the centre backs - which is obviously why Safegate plays 3 of the b*******.

[TigerTedd]

38 minutes ago, Srg said:

Basically a starting XI, bar the centre backs - which is obviously why Safegate plays 3 of the b*******.

He won’t do this, but based on how potentially crap our defence is, we really should just go for the whole, ‘we’re gonna score one more than you,’ attitude. 

that could be a lot of fun, and we’ve got the attacking players to do it. 

2 at the back with Rice screening them, and every other bugger on the pitch running at their goal, playing in their half of the pitch. 

[Srg]

28 minutes ago, TigerTedd said:

He won’t do this, but based on how potentially crap our defence is, we really should just go for the whole, ‘we’re gonna score one more than you,’ attitude. 

that could be a lot of fun, and we’ve got the attacking players to do it. 

2 at the back with Rice screening them, and every other bugger on the pitch running at their goal, playing in their half of the pitch. 

Basically, yes. We should be looking to blow some of the smaller nations away. But if you look at the last 2 tournaments, we've really struggled and relied on set pieces and penalties, which laughable with the quality we have in the final third.

[Day]

You want a manager who's first priority is winning the game, not someone that sets out not to lose.

Doesn't have to be gung ho, full on Bielsa style, just that empathise on attack.

90% of games England play, we're coming up against and no disrespect intended, but inferior countries.

When we come up against a France or Germany, of course you setup a little more defensive, we still have players not to be looking to nick a goal from a corner.

[roboto]

2 hours ago, David said:

Bellingham, Trent AA, Trippier, Foden, Maddison, Wilson…..and Mount, Saka borderline.

They are up there as key players in their respective teams.

I don't think Trent is as important to Liverpool as he was when he has been in form. If anything he's been a liability defensively this season. Trippier and Walker should be ahead of him if all players are fit and available on current form.

Agree with others you pick out, but would say Saka is more than borderline at Arsenal. He is the player that can make things happen when things aren't going there way, for me, he is the most exciting player in the England squad. I've seen him enough times live these last couple of seasons (eldest son is an Arsenal fan (I know, but we live in North London and Derby are his second team)) to know that he can be the main man for England too. It's hard to believe he's so young still when you see him boss a PL game like he does.

I would also add that Pickford and Pope are key players in their teams and we have good options in goal, even Ramsdale is an outstanding option for a 3rd choice keeper.

[Mr Tibbs]

8 hours ago, Bris Vegas said:

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not a huge Sven fan or anything. 

But ultimately in 2002 we lost to eventual winners Brazil who were simply better than us while in 2004 we lost to hosts Portugal on penalties and again in 2006 where we played a large chunk of the game with 10 men.

Did they really underachieve considering the circumstances?

Also, what is the difference between losing to eventual winners at the last 16 stage or in the final? Ultimately it’s the same isn’t it? 

England have a lot of good players. But would you say any of our current players are among the best players for their respective clubs?

I think only Harry Kane fits in to that category. 

I often thinK of English players as the water carriers in their respective clubs. I’m probably being harsh. 

 

 

In those specific games vs Brazil/Portugal I don't think they underachieved but when you look at the tournament finish overall for the groups of players involved in those squads, it was below what was expected. Especially when Greece won one of those tournaments, beating Portugal along the way. Those three games had it all to be fair, from the Ronnie lob, Campbell's disallowed goal, the Ronaldo wink etc - there's a lot to cipher through. All those games could have gone either way but none of them ever went our way, include Romania, Algeria, USA and Iceland in this category too. I think that's where we're better under Southgate, the fine margins. 

Agree on the players we currently have. I think they are over-rated and we have few world class players. We haven't got one English player in the top 20 of the Ballon d'Or this year which is a reflection of where our squad is at. I do think we have four or 5 players who are destined to reach that bracket though and that's why there will be extra judgement on our performance this winter. 

[Mostyn6]

9 hours ago, Bris Vegas said:

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not a huge Sven fan or anything. 

But ultimately in 2002 we lost to eventual winners Brazil who were simply better than us while in 2004 we lost to hosts Portugal on penalties and again in 2006 where we played a large chunk of the game with 10 men.

Did they really underachieve considering the circumstances?

I think Sven killed us in 2002. He was impotent when he needed to grasp the game. Against 10-man Brazil, chasing the game, with a pacey Kieron Dyer and a confident and skilful Joe Cole on the bench, he opted to put defenders Ledley King and Phil Neville on in midfleld and basically just shut off and hoped for a miracle. Every book I've read written by players in that squad point a finger of ineptitude at Sven for his lack of decisiveness and bravery in that last half hour. We threw it away.

[Bris Vegas]

1 hour ago, Mostyn6 said:

I think Sven killed us in 2002. He was impotent when he needed to grasp the game. Against 10-man Brazil, chasing the game, with a pacey Kieron Dyer and a confident and skilful Joe Cole on the bench, he opted to put defenders Ledley King and Phil Neville on in midfleld and basically just shut off and hoped for a miracle. Every book I've read written by players in that squad point a finger of ineptitude at Sven for his lack of decisiveness and bravery in that last half hour. We threw it away.

That’s an interesting take. I was pretty young (13-14 ish) are 2002 so I didn’t deep-dive analysis on the game. But from memory, we barely created anything after they went down to 10-men and you have probably now explained why. 

That Brazil team was amazing though. They had the best players in the world in almost every position and were clearly more tactically astute compared to their rivals at the time (playing the three Rs upfront, proper attacking fullbacks and Gilberto Silva holding).

[Skin em Ted]

I still have some reservations about Southgate's 'success' in recent tournaments. I think England's talent pool has always put us as a QF team. Give or take the rub of the green, we may make the semis or the second round (occasionally not qualify). I don't think beating Colombia and Sweden makes him any better (or worse) than Erikson's efforts?

Was the Italia '90 squad so much better than the team that didn't qualify in '94? - We were no better than Belgium in the Second round and were not the better team against Cameroon in the quarters. If it weren't for a goal from our own Mark Wright we could've faced West Germany in the second round and been knocked out then. I think we made a meal of qualifying for the 1990 tournament also?

Fine margins make the difference between heroes or turnips and I think Southgate has previously benefitted from favourable draws.

On a positive note, he is the only manager in my lifetime to beat one of the big guns (at a major tournament in the knockout stages) which is where Erikson's teams always floundered.

 

[Bris Vegas]

6 hours ago, David said:

Bellingham, Trent AA, Trippier, Foden, Maddison, Wilson…..and Mount, Saka borderline.

They are up there as key players in their respective teams.

Bellingham, Trippier, Maddison and Wilson are key players but they don’t really play for top clubs. Would they stand out playing for Bayern, Real Madrid or City? Probably not.

Foden and TAA are standout names but City will probably see Haaland, KDB, Bernardo Silva, Rodri and Dias as more important in their respective roles.

Likewise Liverpool have Van Dijk, Allison, Fabinho, Salah and of the two, Robertson is the better fullback.

I think Saka could have a breakout tournament though. I rate him highly and would have him as one of the first names on the team sheet.

 

 

[BramcoteRam84]

6 hours ago, Mostyn6 said:

I think Sven killed us in 2002. He was impotent when he needed to grasp the game. Against 10-man Brazil, chasing the game, with a pacey Kieron Dyer and a confident and skilful Joe Cole on the bench, he opted to put defenders Ledley King and Phil Neville on in midfleld and basically just shut off and hoped for a miracle. Every book I've read written by players in that squad point a finger of ineptitude at Sven for his lack of decisiveness and bravery in that last half hour. We threw it away.

It felt like that at the time. Brazil were not great on the day. They were there for the taking that game. Didn’t help he played an unfit beckham who jumped out of a tackle losing the ball which led to their equaliser. 
 

While it wasn’t the best team we had, I think that World Cup alongside 2004 Euros was our best opportunity to win a major tournament until last year obviously 

[Eddie]

I'm still spitting feathers over Ramsey not bringing Hector on earlier against Poland.

[Van der MoodHoover]

8 hours ago, Skin em Ted said:

I still have some reservations about Southgate's 'success' in recent tournaments. I think England's talent pool has always put us as a QF team. Give or take the rub of the green, we may make the semis or the second round (occasionally not qualify). I don't think beating Colombia and Sweden makes him any better (or worse) than Erikson's efforts?

Was the Italia '90 squad so much better than the team that didn't qualify in '94? - We were no better than Belgium in the Second round and were not the better team against Cameroon in the quarters. If it weren't for a goal from our own Mark Wright we could've faced West Germany in the second round and been knocked out then. I think we made a meal of qualifying for the 1990 tournament also?

Fine margins make the difference between heroes or turnips and I think Southgate has previously benefitted from favourable draws.

On a positive note, he is the only manager in my lifetime to beat one of the big guns (at a major tournament in the knockout stages) which is where Erikson's teams always floundered.

 

England beat Argentina in the 2002 wc group stage. 

With pocchetino giving away the crucial peno in a 1-0 win. 

[Mr. P]

This journalist has been reporting in the Ukraine war, but it’s in Qatar he gets agro lol