World Cup Qatar

[BondJovi]

My bigger concern with the squad is the number of out of form/lacking match sharpness players we have.

I thought Maguire looked very poor against Villa on Thursday. Late to many challenges. Phillips won't be remotely match fit, neither will Walker. Kane is already 'tired'

Not sure Sterling or Grealish are doing enough currently. Rashford seems to have rediscovered himself though.

Southgate will stick to his favourites so half the squad won't get involved. 

I just don't sense that this world cup carries the magnitude it normally does. 

[De22Ram]

Im not really "feeling" this world cup yet! Dont seem right not being in the summer! Dont get me started on fifa giving it to qatar! Im in my 30s but usually get the sticker albums to do with the kids etc but cant afford or be arsed this year! 
 

As for the team, wobbly mouth has picked his usual players that have tournament expierence and hes loyal to! Can see them setting up defensive in the group games and scraping 1 or 2 nils! The logic being warm up against the group teams in the same formation, tactics as youd play against the bigger teams later on in the tournament! Will be interesting though as the usual excuse is the players are tired after a long season but this one, in theory, there all primed and ready to go halfway through a league season! Also maybe hes learned against the italy final to not shut up shop too early! Reminded me of clough against leicester that time lol! If we had gone for them i think we would have beat the italiens!
 

Unless we win it, this will be his last tournament as England manager so will see if the players hes always so loyal to pull it out the bag for him! ?

[Ram-Alf]

54 minutes ago, De22Ram said:

 

Unless we win it, this will be his last tournament as England manager so will see if the players hes always so loyal to pull it out the bag for him! ?

If we lose all 3 qualifying games...he's gone, Other than that he's here until after the 2024 Euro Cup, Mr Nice, No upsetting the Apple Cart, Says all the right things that the FA like to hear, Clean cut and not in the press for the wrong reasons.

Not a lot of enthusiasm from me where the WC is concerned...riddled with the smell of Corruption ?

[Van der MoodHoover]

Doesn't work for me with all the seasons issues undecided and everything suspended. 

Its rightful place is at seasons end when we've stopped looking at league tables and can give it focus. 

[Day]

At the same time, the uniqueness of the timing could make for a belter of a tournament. 

The players are not coming off the back of a full season of domestic and European football, they will be fully up to speed so no excuses of fatigue. 

In air conditioned stadiums they won’t be battling with the heat either. 

Fully understand, respect and appreciate those that are refusing to watch on human rights issues, just on the footballing side I’m starting to gain more interest now with the upsides of having it at the time of year, not that I would want it to regularly take place at Christmas.

[Srg]

In serious danger of not getting out the group. Southgate in serious danger of wasting one of the best attacking groups of players we have ever had with his awful, defensive football. 

His selections are odd. He cites form as the reason to pick Maddison, then form as the reason to leave out Abraham. So what about Tomori? Maguire? Won’t take Reece James due to injury but he will Kalvin Phillips. Guy is just contradicting himself all over. 

Tactically, we struggle when Kane drops so deep because we don’t have Son like Spurs do to run in behind. We have players like Foden, Grealish etc who want the ball to feet. That’s why he likes playing Rashford or Sterling to try and stretch it, rather than making Kane stay up top. Hopefully he goes with just Rice and Bellingham in midfield too, and didn’t go 5 at the back which just means we play an extra player from our weakest position group. 

[1of4]

Couldn't get excited about the World Cup, more so since the announcement of the squad, that contains to many unfit or under performing players. Unless some of Southgate's underperforming favourites have a sudden improvement. England getting past the group stages will be an achievement.

[Gritstone Ram]

Let’s hope we are pleasantly surprised. Talking about the squad today and I think Toney should be in above Stirling and Rashford.

[Bris Vegas]

On 12/11/2022 at 16:46, Srg said:

In serious danger of not getting out the group. Southgate in serious danger of wasting one of the best attacking groups of players we have ever had with his awful, defensive football. 

His selections are odd. He cites form as the reason to pick Maddison, then form as the reason to leave out Abraham. So what about Tomori? Maguire? Won’t take Reece James due to injury but he will Kalvin Phillips. Guy is just contradicting himself all over. 

Tactically, we struggle when Kane drops so deep because we don’t have Son like Spurs do to run in behind. We have players like Foden, Grealish etc who want the ball to feet. That’s why he likes playing Rashford or Sterling to try and stretch it, rather than making Kane stay up top. Hopefully he goes with just Rice and Bellingham in midfield too, and didn’t go 5 at the back which just means we play an extra player from our weakest position group. 

I think we have a number of decent wide players but would you say any of our other players are better than what we had around 2002-06?

Back then we had far better defenders in Ferdinand, Campbell and Terry.

Ashley Cole in a league of his own.

Midfield is no comparison with Scholes, Gerrard, Lampard and even Carrick who is probably comparable to Rice.

Goalkeepers… Not sure. Rooney and Kane are different players but both world class standard.

i think the only areas which this team has better options is at right-back and wide attackers.

But I don’t think those positions will influence the team enough to outperform the 2002-06 sides.

They equally beat the mediocre sides but came up short against top class opposition (on penalties mainly).

 

[JoetheRam]

2 hours ago, Bris Vegas said:

I think we have a number of decent wide players but would you say any of our other players are better than what we had around 2002-06?

Back then we had far better defenders in Ferdinand, Campbell and Terry.

Ashley Cole in a league of his own.

Midfield is no comparison with Scholes, Gerrard, Lampard and even Carrick who is probably comparable to Rice.

Goalkeepers… Not sure. Rooney and Kane are different players but both world class standard.

i think the only areas which this team has better options is at right-back and wide attackers.

But I don’t think those positions will influence the team enough to outperform the 2002-06 sides.

They equally beat the mediocre sides but came up short against top class opposition (on penalties mainly).

 

They already have. Twice.

[Rammy03]

19 minutes ago, JoetheRam said:

They already have. Twice.

Exactly. So why does Southgate get so much criticism?

[Van der MoodHoover]

20 minutes ago, JoetheRam said:

They already have. Twice.

They haven't "performed" better. They happen to have reached later stages of tournaments only because they have had draws that avoided stronger teams earlier on. 

[Srg]

18 minutes ago, Rammy03 said:

Exactly. So why does Southgate get so much criticism?

Because he still doesn’t use them properly. We 100% should have beaten Italy. But he reverted to type and tried to defend the whole game, didn’t even make a substitution. It was pathetic. That’s after defending his way through to the final. We should have battered several of those teams. Russia was no better, but he gets a pass for that one as the team just needed bringing together after turmoil prior. 

It’s like when we had Nigel Clough. Could see the talent in the team but he was never going to take us up in a million years. Now, I know McLaren didn’t either, but the team took a huge leap when he came in and played some unbelievable football. 

[JoetheRam]

1 hour ago, Rammy03 said:

Exactly. So why does Southgate get so much criticism?

Because he doesn't do exactly what the media and fans want him to do? Don't know. I was critical of him for drawing the Euro final for sure, and losing against Croatia the way we did was poor.

I don't know enough about the players to comment really as I don't watch them for their clubs but I guess he's a bit 'negative' considering our defensive players aren't as good as our forward players and we'd all love to see them unshackled and allowed to play with freedom that they seem to not be allowed under him.

Edited November 14, 2022 by JoetheRam

[JoetheRam]

1 hour ago, Van der MoodHoover said:

They haven't "performed" better. They happen to have reached later stages of tournaments only because they have had draws that avoided stronger teams earlier on. 

And how is performance measured? Results. And Southgate has got us further than we did in 2002 where we lost to the first decent team we played, 2004 we looked pretty good to be fair, despite blowing a 1-0 lead and a good performance against France before losing to the next decent team we played on Pens and in 2006 we were crap, scraping past Trinidad and Tobago in the last 10 mins, and Paraguay by an own goal before drawing to an average Sweden and nicking a 1-0 against Ecuador. Again losing to the first decent team we played on Pens.

Look, I'm not oblivious to Southgate's shortcomings but to suggest he hasn't done any better than Sven (who had a way better defence to play with) doesn't seem right to me.

Would I count Southgate as successful? No. But have England achieved good results at tournaments under him? Yes.

 

Edited November 14, 2022 by JoetheRam

[Van der MoodHoover]

1 minute ago, JoetheRam said:

And how is performance measured? Results. And Southgate has got us further than we did in 2002 where we lost to the first decent team we played, 2004 we looked pretty good to be fair, despite blowing a 1-0 lead and a good performance against France before losing to the next decent team we played on Pens and in 2006 we were crap, scraping past Trinidad and Tobago in the last 10 mins, and Paraguay by an own goal before drawing to an average Sweden and nicking a 1-0 against Ecuador. Again losing to the first decent team we played on Pens.

Look, I'm not oblivious to Southgate's shortcomings but to suggest he hasn't done any better than Sven (who had a way better defence to play with) doesn't seem right to me.

 

See, when you choose to define "performance" as "results" regardless of the opposition, you surface EXACTLY the same points. So we're saying the same things. 

But then choose to disregard them in order to be able to give Gareth Southgate a label of "achievement". 

He's no better - but no worse than what we've had before. The progress of the England team through tournaments is hugely correlated to the "luck of the draw", not to the perceived brilliance of the team which is always exposed as false. 

Turn the question on it's head - when was the last time an England tournament performance genuinely exceeded expectations? 

[JoetheRam]

14 minutes ago, Van der MoodHoover said:

See, when you choose to define "performance" as "results" regardless of the opposition, you surface EXACTLY the same points. So we're saying the same things. 

But then choose to disregard them in order to be able to give Gareth Southgate a label of "achievement". 

He's no better - but no worse than what we've had before. The progress of the England team through tournaments is hugely correlated to the "luck of the draw", not to the perceived brilliance of the team which is always exposed as false. 

Turn the question on it's head - when was the last time an England tournament performance genuinely exceeded expectations? 

Fair point on first two paragraphs, although I wouldn't say he's achieved anything unless we win something. My point was in counter to Bris' assertion that we hadn't outperformed the 02-06 side, who despite massive talent never got close to success.

Sven had great players at his disposal but did nothing with them. Southgate has a team with good attackers and full backs but poor defenders. With the players he has at his disposal, if Sven's biennial quarter-final exit is the yardstick, Southgate has out-performed him twice.

Luck of the draw? Some in 2018 granted, but Croatia, Scotland, Czech Republic, Germany, Ukraine and Denmark is at least par for the course surely?

In answer to your last question - Euro 2020, Nations League and World Cup 2018 have all exceeded expectations for me - I had us down for last 16 in 2018, knocked out in the group in Nations League and out in the quarters at the Euros.

Maybe you rate our players too highly if you expect better than a final and a couple of semi's (tee-hee)? 

And despite everything I've just written, I don't have high hopes for this world cup, and think it's time someone else had a go in charge.

 

Edited November 14, 2022 by JoetheRam

[Bris Vegas]

6 hours ago, JoetheRam said:

Fair point on first two paragraphs, although I wouldn't say he's achieved anything unless we win something. My point was in counter to Bris' assertion that we hadn't outperformed the 02-06 side, who despite massive talent never got close to success.

Sven had great players at his disposal but did nothing with them. Southgate has a team with good attackers and full backs but poor defenders. With the players he has at his disposal, if Sven's biennial quarter-final exit is the yardstick, Southgate has out-performed him twice.

Luck of the draw? Some in 2018 granted, but Croatia, Scotland, Czech Republic, Germany, Ukraine and Denmark is at least par for the course surely?

In answer to your last question - Euro 2020, Nations League and World Cup 2018 have all exceeded expectations for me - I had us down for last 16 in 2018, knocked out in the group in Nations League and out in the quarters at the Euros.

Maybe you rate our players too highly if you expect better than a final and a couple of semi's (tee-hee)? 

And despite everything I've just written, I don't have high hopes for this world cup, and think it's time someone else had a go in charge.

 

The point I was making is that the 2002-06 side suffered the same fate as our current side.

Beat the mediocre sides, lose to the first good side narrowly.

Southgate’s England just happened to meet the better sides later on in the tournament rather than at the 1/4 stage like in 2002, 2004 and 2006.

Both sides had a good win. We beat Argentina in 2002, beat Germany in 2020. But both opposition were at their lowest point in years.

I’m not saying Sven outperformed Southgate. I’m just not buying into the idea that Southgate has performed any better. 

The expectations bit is interesting. I mean, a semi-final and final has exceeded expectations because in most tournaments you play a decent side in the last 16 (especially if you finish 2nd in your World Cup group) or at least at 1/4 level.

But I think we all expected England to beat Colombia and Sweden in 2018 and Ukraine and Denmark in 2020. If we had lost any of those we’d be calling it a failure.

It’s easy to say a last 16 defeat is a failure and we didn’t match expectations. But what if you lost to the eventual winners at that stage? 

We have gotten further than Belgium in recent years but I don’t think anyone can deny they have had better results than us - they beat us twice, beat Portugal and Brazil too.

 

[Van der MoodHoover]

2 hours ago, Bris Vegas said:

The point I was making is that the 2002-06 side suffered the same fate as our current side.

Beat the mediocre sides, lose to the first good side narrowly.

Southgate’s England just happened to meet the better sides later on in the tournament rather than at the 1/4 stage like in 2002, 2004 and 2006.

Both sides had a good win. We beat Argentina in 2002, beat Germany in 2020. But both opposition were at their lowest point in years.

I’m not saying Sven outperformed Southgate. I’m just not buying into the idea that Southgate has performed any better. 

The expectations bit is interesting. I mean, a semi-final and final has exceeded expectations because in most tournaments you play a decent side in the last 16 (especially if you finish 2nd in your World Cup group) or at least at 1/4 level.

But I think we all expected England to beat Colombia and Sweden in 2018 and Ukraine and Denmark in 2020. If we had lost any of those we’d be calling it a failure.

It’s easy to say a last 16 defeat is a failure and we didn’t match expectations. But what if you lost to the eventual winners at that stage? 

We have gotten further than Belgium in recent years but I don’t think anyone can deny they have had better results than us - they beat us twice, beat Portugal and Brazil too.

 

Exactly. Expressed much more clearly than I. 

Thinking back, the last time I remember thinking we'd done better than expected but also really given a good team a game was italia 90.

And that side was not as feted as our more recent ones. 

[OUTSIDER]

7 days to first game can't wait. Travelling next Saturday