World Cup Qatar

[Mucker1884]

3 minutes ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

You lot need an OAP thread where you can moan about the modern game while us young'uns enjoy it! We'll see you in a few years.

Bugger off, yer cheeky little oik!  

 

 

 

 

 

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[TigerTedd]

6 hours ago, Normanton Lad said:

I can only assume you have no respect for the cultural beliefs of one quarter of the world's population. What happens in the West is of little concern to them. But when Westerners try to push woke culture down their throats in their countries then that is a different matter.

To them the West is a rich and decedent old man with no heirs. He will soon be gone and only remembered for his eccentricity. In not too many generations the West will just be a strange footnote in the history of the world. 

I get that we don’t have a divine right to say our ideology / culture / religion is the right one, and everyone else is wrong. Different cultures are what create the spice of life. I’m all for it. I’m glad there was a specifically Qatari influence in the World Cup, and so there should be. 

But we’re talking about basic, universal, human rights.

I always say that any functioning society shouldn’t actually need laws to function. 

We shouldn’t need laws to tell us it’s wrong to kill people, or steal, we shouldn’t need to laws to tell us what a fair outcome of a situation is, we should just know that, in our bones, we should all have a universal understanding of right and wrong. Ie who another person chooses to love is none of our business.

Of course the world goes in cycles. In 1,000 years time a new dominant civilisation may have risen. Modern Islam or Christianity might be seen as antiquated as the pagan Roman, Greek and Egyptian religions.

but those human rights will always be universal. Treating someone as if they are lesser, will always be bullying, will always be unjust. The Qataris know this. They just don’t give a s***. 

[TigerTedd]

38 minutes ago, TigerTedd said:

I get that we don’t have a divine right to say our ideology / culture / religion is the right one, and everyone else is wrong. Different cultures are what create the spice of life. I’m all for it. I’m glad there was a specifically Qatari influence in the World Cup, and so there should be. 

But we’re talking about basic, universal, human rights.

I always say that any functioning society shouldn’t actually need laws to function. 

We shouldn’t need laws to tell us it’s wrong to kill people, or steal, we shouldn’t need to laws to tell us what a fair outcome of a situation is, we should just know that, in our bones, we should all have a universal understanding of right and wrong. Ie who another person chooses to love is none of our business.

Of course the world goes in cycles. In 1,000 years time a new dominant civilisation may have risen. Modern Islam or Christianity might be seen as antiquated as the pagan Roman, Greek and Egyptian religions.

but those human rights will always be universal. Treating someone as if they are lesser, will always be bullying, will always be unjust. The Qataris know this. They just don’t give a s***. 

PS when I say Qataris, I of course mean the Qatari elite. I’m sure the majority of regular Qataris are fine people with a decent moral compass, led by rich d********.

Thats not a cultural problem, it’s a universal problem, and always has been. You can have all the human rights in the world, but they rarely upheld by the rich and powerful. 

it’s never been a question of shoving a culture or ideology down anyone’s throat. It’s always been about money and power. And that’ll be true in 1000 years too. 

[Turk Thrust]

I’ve carried out training in Qatar in several occasions, mainly for officials of government departments and the petrol industry. But only once or twice have I met a Qatari who are very much in the minority. Nearly everyone I’ve trained have been Indians who seem to run the administrative elements. I have seen lots of Saudis who fill the hotel restaurants in the evenings, coming over to see their mistresses and drink lager, then go back over the border in their Range Rovers.  Qatar generally is like a mini Dubai. I much prefer Oman.

[Normanton Lad]

2 hours ago, TigerTedd said:

I get that we don’t have a divine right to say our ideology / culture / religion is the right one, and everyone else is wrong. Different cultures are what create the spice of life. I’m all for it. I’m glad there was a specifically Qatari influence in the World Cup, and so there should be. 

But we’re talking about basic, universal, human rights.

I always say that any functioning society shouldn’t actually need laws to function. 

We shouldn’t need laws to tell us it’s wrong to kill people, or steal, we shouldn’t need to laws to tell us what a fair outcome of a situation is, we should just know that, in our bones, we should all have a universal understanding of right and wrong. Ie who another person chooses to love is none of our business.

Of course the world goes in cycles. In 1,000 years time a new dominant civilisation may have risen. Modern Islam or Christianity might be seen as antiquated as the pagan Roman, Greek and Egyptian religions.

but those human rights will always be universal. Treating someone as if they are lesser, will always be bullying, will always be unjust. The Qataris know this. They just don’t give a s***. 

Who are we to lecture other countries about human rights when we don’t take them seriously ourselves?

Human rights are supposed to protect us against oppressive governments, but in the UK human rights laws are being used by the government to oppress us. For example, we are supposed to have "freedom of speech" under various Human Rights Acts but the small print in these Acts is that if you offend anyone by using language deemed “insulting” then you are open to a visit from the police. What one person sees as "insulting" might be seen as fair comment by another. There are so many "sensitive" people in the UK that you might as well keep your gob shut and forget about free speech. There is no such thing in the UK.

Usually, I don’t post about politics because my views on many topics seem to be different from the majority view. It is just not worth upsetting anyone. 

Human rights claims are usually just attempts to get an advantage for one group at the cost of another. Universal rights is a meaningless phrase because what person sees as a right can conflict with what another sees as a right. People often have incompatible desires. 

[TigerTedd]

2 hours ago, Normanton Lad said:

Who are we to lecture other countries about human rights when we don’t take them seriously ourselves?

Human rights are supposed to protect us against oppressive governments, but in the UK human rights laws are being used by the government to oppress us. For example, we are supposed to have "freedom of speech" under various Human Rights Acts but the small print in these Acts is that if you offend anyone by using language deemed “insulting” then you are open to a visit from the police. What one person sees as "insulting" might be seen as fair comment by another. There are so many "sensitive" people in the UK that you might as well keep your gob shut and forget about free speech. There is no such thing in the UK.

Usually, I don’t post about politics because my views on many topics seem to be different from the majority view. It is just not worth upsetting anyone. 

Human rights claims are usually just attempts to get an advantage for one group at the cost of another. Universal rights is a meaningless phrase because what person sees as a right can conflict with what another sees as a right. People often have incompatible desires. 

Well, let’s just not bother them.

Two wrongs don’t make a right. Just cos we’re not perfect, doesn’t mean we can’t point it out when we see it. Because we not spotless we have to just turn a blind eye to others?

Imagine if I had 6pts for speeding offences, and that meant I wasn’t allowed to call someone out when they drive their car through a bus stop full of people. Surely that would make me a huge hypocrite, and I should probably just keep my mouth shut.

 

[Crewton]

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2022/dec/21/qatar-forgotten-migrant-workers-world-cup-2022?

 

[Alph]

15 hours ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

You lot need an OAP thread where you can moan about the modern game while us young'uns enjoy it! We'll see you in a few years.

I'm only 37. I feel like it's changed massively in my lifetime. 

It's kind of gone through a makeover to please family and TV audiences more which has brought in a ton of advertising and the full American sports coverage. 

It's just so different. So much money. When I think of glamour sport I think of F1 but football is in so much more of a bubble. F1 is supposed to be the traveling circus 

 

[Anon]

23 hours ago, Crewton said:

I'm not trying to push anything 'down their throats', I'd just like them to stop oppressing one half of the world's population and criminalising other people's sexual preferences. It's the 21st century, not the 7th. Any international tournament should be open to the enjoyment of everyone without fear. FIFA did not fulfill this requirement when choosing Qatar.

As for "rich and decadent old man"? Absolute LOLZ considering the life of the average Gulf Arab.

You're a Troll though, so these posts are unsurprising. I've seen your work before. I can't ban you from this forum, but I'd strongly recommend that someone with the power to do so does.

Aaahh, moderators help! This person is disagreeing with me!

There really is no justice in the world is there? All you wanted was to force a change in the laws of a sovereign nation 1000s of miles away from your own country. Do you work for the US Department of State?

I'm no fan of Qatar's laws. I don't like how Islam treats women or homosexuals. Vast swathes of the world disagree with me. I'm not arrogant enough to assume that I should have moral authority over billions of people.

[TuffLuff]

15 hours ago, Normanton Lad said:

Who are we to lecture other countries about human rights when we don’t take them seriously ourselves?

Human rights are supposed to protect us against oppressive governments, but in the UK human rights laws are being used by the government to oppress us. For example, we are supposed to have "freedom of speech" under various Human Rights Acts but the small print in these Acts is that if you offend anyone by using language deemed “insulting” then you are open to a visit from the police. What one person sees as "insulting" might be seen as fair comment by another. There are so many "sensitive" people in the UK that you might as well keep your gob shut and forget about free speech. There is no such thing in the UK.

Usually, I don’t post about politics because my views on many topics seem to be different from the majority view. It is just not worth upsetting anyone. 

Human rights claims are usually just attempts to get an advantage for one group at the cost of another. Universal rights is a meaningless phrase because what person sees as a right can conflict with what another sees as a right. People often have incompatible desires. 

Is someone a bit bitter still because they said something online and got a little visit?

[Crewton]

1 hour ago, Anon said:

Aaahh, moderators help! This person is disagreeing with me!

There really is no justice in the world is there? All you wanted was to force a change in the laws of a sovereign nation 1000s of miles away from your own country. Do you work for the US Department of State?

I'm no fan of Qatar's laws. I don't like how Islam treats women or homosexuals. Vast swathes of the world disagree with me. I'm not arrogant enough to assume that I should have moral authority over billions of people.

The governments/rulers and the forces that keep them in power might disagree with you & me, but I wouldn't be so sure about those "vast swathes". The kind of countries that oppress and restrict the freedoms of women and certain minorities don't tend to have anything resembling free and fair elections, so their true opinions about those who rule them are rarely tested. 

To me, these issues are basic human rights and I've got no problem in saying that such countries and cultures are repressive, regressive and don't deserve to be tolerated in this day and age. "Tolerance" doesn't mean allowing people to do whatever they like if it involves infringing the basic human rights of others and it isn't "arrogant" to believe that all people deserve to be treated equally and with dignity.

[Normanton Lad]

4 hours ago, Crewton said:

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2022/dec/21/qatar-forgotten-migrant-workers-world-cup-2022?

 

The emotional response of the average UK reader to that article would be that migrant workers in Qatar are treated intolerably by cruel rich Arabs. 

The critical reader might draw different conclusions because they start from a position of assuming that most of the “news” they get from mainstream media is propaganda. The British are among the most trusting people in the world and consequently they are very easy to brainwash.

The propaganda in this article starts with the photo. Why was it taken behind a fence? The answer is that it was to give the impression that these migrant workers are being held in a prison camp. Was there barbed wire on top of the fence? We don’t know because the top of the fence is not shown. If it was topped with barbed wire then the photographer would have shown it. That would be too good an opportunity to miss. However, just not showing the top of the fence will trick some into thinking it was a barbed wire topped fence. In other words, the migrants couldn’t escape. What do the harsh lights, shadows and high barracks-like buildings remind you of? A prison. Perhaps even a German Second World War prison camp. This is not just a random photo of migrant workers playing football. It is an attempt to deceive you.

When I was a young man I lived in a worker's camp at a massive construction site. Nearly all the men there were migrants from Ireland. We had no five-a-side football pitch for the simple reason that after a long day digging or pouring concrete you only had the energy to lie on your bed or go out to nearest pub and get pissed. If these migrants in Qatar were being worked to exhaustion they would not have the energy for football.

When you read the article the propaganda starts with the pseudonyms. The most unhappy worker is called Moses! I thought they were building football stadiums not pyramids, but you get the message – slaves being held by cruel Arabs. I know that the ancient Egyptians were not Arabs and that there is no mention of the pyramids in the Bible, but propaganda works on emotions and beliefs rather than facts.

Moses makes the point even clearer for the slower readers when he says “What we are seeing here is modern slavery”. It sounds a bit like conditions in the UK where there are many people being held as slaves by their fellow migrants. The difference is that Moses can go home if he is not happy but most of the slaves here are illegal immigrants and things are not so simple.

Some workers are not paid the minimum wage set by the Qatar government. Who is cheating them out of this money? It looks like the same old story. Migrants are cheating fellow migrants. Most of the migrants living in illegal hovels in the UK have migrant landlords. It is the same with sweatshops. They are employed by migrants on less than the minimum wage in unsafe conditions. If the Qatar is to blame for this then so is our government.

"Issac"- another Biblical migrant – who is a black African says the Qataris call him "Kachara" which the Guardian translates as rubbish. Kachara is a Hindi word. Why would they shout at him in Hindi rather than Arabic? It seems a bit strange, but Issac might be right. He also complains about Asian workers not mixing with the Africans. Perhaps it was the Asian migrants who were insulting him and not the Qataris. Maybe it suited the author better to blame the Qataris rather than other migrants.

There is so much to say about this and all the other nonsense we are fed by liars but life short and I doubt if anyone is interested in my opinions. Nearly everything I once believed I now regard as false so unless I've become usually wise in my old age my opinions are probably just as unreliable as the next man's.
 

[TigerTedd]

3 hours ago, Alpha said:

I'm only 37. I feel like it's changed massively in my lifetime. 

It's kind of gone through a makeover to please family and TV audiences more which has brought in a ton of advertising and the full American sports coverage. 

It's just so different. So much money. When I think of glamour sport I think of F1 but football is in so much more of a bubble. F1 is supposed to be the traveling circus 

 

We often think the money has brought the ‘gamesmanship’ the stakes are so much higher, with literally billions in the line, but actually, that’s been there for ages. We talk about the old days like no one ever cheated, but I was surprised at how old the fry and Laurie video I posted was. Diving was obviously a big enough problem back then to earn the right to be satirised.

I do feel like what we need is a straight split of the league, like rugby league and union. I always get the impression that rugby league is more old school, for the purists, and rugby union is more glitz and glamour for the sky tv cameras.

Just cut the premier league and championship adrift as Premier League 1 and 2, and then let the purists enjoy the real football in the Football League, where we can chose our own rules, do away with VAR and silly marginal offsides, and daft hand ball rules etc. 

I say this now we’re in league 1, but I feel like derby county are very much an old school club from a different era, which would fit well into a Football League set up. 

[Bris Vegas]

3 hours ago, Alpha said:

I'm only 37. I feel like it's changed massively in my lifetime. 

It's kind of gone through a makeover to please family and TV audiences more which has brought in a ton of advertising and the full American sports coverage. 

It's just so different. So much money. When I think of glamour sport I think of F1 but football is in so much more of a bubble. F1 is supposed to be the traveling circus 

 

When football was just football.

 

[Ram-Alf]

20 hours ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

You lot need an OAP thread where you can moan about the modern game while us young'uns enjoy it! We'll see you in a few years.

?

 

[Crewton]

David Squires on the World Cup final 

https://www.theguardian.com/football/ng-interactive/2022/dec/20/david-squires-on-a-salty-end-to-qatar-world-cup?

[kevinhectoring]

On 20/12/2022 at 18:14, TigerTedd said:

I always say that any functioning society shouldn’t actually need laws to function. 

Knew it. You ARE Karl Marx. Don’t bother about the fiver it belongs to all of us already