The Administration Thread

[WhiteHorseRam]

2 hours ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

 

Some forest wet wipe has set up this petition

Make Derby County pay the £39m outstanding to HMRC

John Smith started this petition

Derby County have ab outstanding tax bill of £29m. Along with a significant amount to Derby Council. 

Derby are currently in administration and are actively negotiating to reduce these debts. This cannot be allowed to happen. Rewarding profligate behaviour and a refusal to pay taxes hurts us all. Why should the public stump any money up for a badly run business.

Force Derby to sell all assets and pay the tax they owe, its right and its fair. If you disagree try not paying your council tax next month. Why are Derby special. They aren't. Make them pay.

Who?

[WhiteHorseRam]

I am no football finance expert, but my view is if M'boro and Wycombe get any cash out of us football could well be doomed.

This would set a precedent. Anytime a club doesn't win the FA Cup, fails to qualify for the Champions League, gets relegated or misses out on promotion, a serious and prolonged legal effort would ensue.

Why would you not? Membership of the PL or the Champions league is mega bucks and worth a few million to get some suits in.

The situation would deteriorate into something akin to League level VAR, but with accountants and lawyers rather than sweaty nervous refs and screens.

I don't want us to pay any money to these two clubs. I especially don't want to pay any money, are strong-armed into it to get a new buyer, to avoid going down the drain.

 

If, however, we have to pay compo, I want to see ALL dodgy dealings across all leagues equally scrutinized and compo paid to any aggrieved parties.

Going back to 1945 - that would be fair.

And while you are at it, why not explore the origins of ALL money spent and churned through the game. I would love to see where some PL clubs money comes from. Also, who owns what, interest rates on loans, loans to share holders, etc.

[FlyBritishMidland]

7 hours ago, Ramos said:

Only thing I didn’t understand was Kieran’s points about credit card companies pulling out of EFL? 

It was a good listen and some excellent points.  Pure guess but I wonder if this is to with the insurance a customer gets.  You buy something, like a holiday, on your credit card you have extra insurance for anything over £100.  Book with TUI you have ABTA and ATOL protection, buy from Holidays R Us you rely on your credit card protection.  I wonder if it’s the same for football if a club is liquidated and can’t complete the season?

[TheSlate]

10 hours ago, Rev said:

He was the majority shareholder in King, and led them first into an IPO, then a private sale afterwards.

Made $666m dollars from that sale, although he wasn't the only shareholder.

Seems a rather pedantic point you're making, if I'm being honest.

 

Sorry Rev, I didn't mean to be pedantic. I think I'm getting caught up in all this marginal detail surrounding everything at the minute. Apologies, didn't mean to come across as a moron ? 

[PistoldPete]

1 hour ago, WhiteHorseRam said:

Who?

So I guess John Smith isn’t his real name?

[G STAR RAM]

3 hours ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

 

Some forest wet wipe has set up this petition

Make Derby County pay the £39m outstanding to HMRC

John Smith started this petition

Derby County have ab outstanding tax bill of £29m. Along with a significant amount to Derby Council. 

Derby are currently in administration and are actively negotiating to reduce these debts. This cannot be allowed to happen. Rewarding profligate behaviour and a refusal to pay taxes hurts us all. Why should the public stump any money up for a badly run business.

Force Derby to sell all assets and pay the tax they owe, its right and its fair. If you disagree try not paying your council tax next month. Why are Derby special. They aren't. Make them pay.

There's not really much to disagree about what they say is there?

This debt has come about by a multi millionaire, paying other millionaires salaries, and the people that will pick up the tab is the taxpayer.

We look at it through Derby tinted glasses but if it was another club I'd think exactly the same as this person.

Of course, i don't want to see us liquidated but if we do find any new owners, and they buy the club under the agreement of paying the creditors a single penny less than what they are due, our club will be tainted.

[Cool As Custard]

I'm no legal expert and fully prepared to be shot down in flames, but given the impasse we appear to be at and liquidation looking an increasingly likely option should we not try call the EFL's bluff?

From everything I'm reading on here the law of the land is on our side with the proposal the administrators tabled to the EFL last week. The big down sides with following this route as I see them are the loss of 15 points next season & also the risk to our 'golden share' - a place in the EFL. The positives would be is that it is legally enforceable & would also completely end Middlesbrough & Wycombe's chances of getting anything from us.

Whilst another 15 point deduction isn't ideal in the grand scheme of things, if thats the difference between having a club and not having a club that is something I'd be willing to swallow. The loss of our 'golden share' is something else entirely, however if we chose to go down that route & given the negative PR they have received over the last couple  of days would the EFL really enforce that?

Firstly they'd be seen as the sole reason for forcing one of their oldest & largest members into liquidation - do they really want that blood on their hands? Secondly if they did try to do that the legal battle that would follow would bring all their dirty washing into the public domain & also highlight that their own insolvency rules do not follow the law of the land. We'd appear to have a really strong legal case for them not be allowed to expel us from the league if taken to court.

Given that we increasingly look to being backed into a corner where liquidation could be inevitable anyway & although the above is a really high stakes move, gambling with the very existence of the club, do we really have that much left to lose? 

 

[DarkFruitsRam7]

 

[YouRams]

10 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

There's not really much to disagree about what they say is there?

This debt has come about by a multi millionaire, paying other millionaires salaries, and the people that will pick up the tab is the taxpayer.

We look at it through Derby tinted glasses but if it was another club I'd think exactly the same as this person.

Of course, i don't want to see us liquidated but if we do find any new owners, and they buy the club under the agreement of paying the creditors a single penny less than what they are due, our club will be tainted.

I’ve always thought it’s backwards how business owners not just in football can leave businesses in admin or just fold them and walk away owing people thousands/millions. Then a lot have the cheek to start another business in a different name and can carry on as normal, not even bothered about the people they’ve left in the ****. Clearly MM is one of those, if he had any decency he’d clear HIS debts even if that meant selling his own assets. 

[BobdeBilder]

9 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

There's not really much to disagree about what they say is there?

This debt has come about by a multi millionaire, paying other millionaires salaries, and the people that will pick up the tab is the taxpayer.

We look at it through Derby tinted glasses but if it was another club I'd think exactly the same as this person.

Of course, i don't want to see us liquidated but if we do find any new owners, and they buy the club under the agreement of paying the creditors a single penny less than what they are due, our club will be tainted.

Tell me, how many people think Leicester are "tainted"? They payed no one, and I know the rules changed after they went into administration. But does anybody say,"not going to the match today, it's Leicester, and they let all those businesses go to the wall"? No one cares.

[alexxxxx]

I'm unfortunately not so confident we'll beat liquidation.. 

As it stands the efl need to move from their position protecting WWFC and MFC which despite pressure politically, I think they'll need more of a stick to move their position. I don't believe the efl are capable of or even wish to resolve this themselves.

WWFC and MFC seem even more unlikely to change their position based on their statements this week.

I think the efl will end up giving us a 14day/21day extension to prove the club can complete its fixtures and forge a way forward. 

I reckon court action is the likely the only way forward. 

 

 

[G STAR RAM]

1 minute ago, BobdeBilder said:

Tell me, how many people think Leicester are "tainted"? They payed no one, and I know the rules changed after they went into administration. But does anybody say,"not going to the match today, it's Leicester, and they let all those businesses go to the wall"? No one cares.

Most football fans I know think Leicester City are a tainted club and will refer to the fact that they screwed over local buinesses.

Often gets mentioned when the media say what a fairytale story them winning the league was.

[Crewton]

17 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

There's not really much to disagree about what they say is there?

This debt has come about by a multi millionaire, paying other millionaires salaries, and the people that will pick up the tab is the taxpayer.

We look at it through Derby tinted glasses but if it was another club I'd think exactly the same as this person.

Of course, i don't want to see us liquidated but if we do find any new owners, and they buy the club under the agreement of paying the creditors a single penny less than what they are due, our club will be tainted.

Of course, in a perfect world, everyone would be forced to pay their debts, regardless of who they're owed to. But if that principle were applied inflexibly, you might as well liquidate every company that gets into financial difficulty. Then watch everyone affected start calling for government intervention or a more pragmatic approach to save jobs and suppliers etc etc. 

And that's nothing compared to what would happen to the rate of bankruptcies among private individuals. 

[Crewton]

6 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Most football fans I know think Leicester City are a tainted club and will refer to the fact that they screwed over local buinesses.

Often gets mentioned when the media say what a fairytale story them winning the league was.

It was mentioned in the parliamentary debate yesterday, but last time I checked they were still in the Premier League and still hadn't reimbursed everyone affected. 

[G STAR RAM]

5 minutes ago, Crewton said:

It was mentioned in the parliamentary debate yesterday, but last time I checked they were still in the Premier League and still hadn't reimbursed everyone affected. 

Correct, the rules were changed the year after I believe to try and stop it happening again.

[kevinhectoring]

2 hours ago, Sparkle said:

Not sure how the stadium being in a different company can be put into administration but how would that help - Bury gigg lane has been sold off for the land to raise money to pay creditors - we could easily lose it forever 

It is a distraction. It came out of Couhig’s comment which was a distraction. 

[RammingStone66]

24 minutes ago, alexxxxx said:

I'm unfortunately not so confident we'll beat liquidation.. 

As it stands the efl need to move from their position protecting WWFC and MFC which despite pressure politically, I think they'll need more of a stick to move their position. I don't believe the efl are capable of or even wish to resolve this themselves.

WWFC and MFC seem even more unlikely to change their position based on their statements this week.

I think the efl will end up giving us a 14day/21day extension to prove the club can complete its fixtures and forge a way forward. 

I reckon court action is the likely the only way forward. 

 

 

Yeah I have to agree on some of this as it feels like the EFL have put themselves in a position where they dont have to move. They have put it all on the admins to announce a bidder, or enough finance to survive and sort the claim. 

They get to sit there saying it's a private legal matter between clubs but we want it sorting before you do anything.

Feels like more pressure is needed to make them back down, time is on the EFLs side and not ours.

[StaffsRam]

Bottom line is that the EFL have a vested interest in supporting both the Middlesbrough and Wycombe claims, in that if it’s not us they’re (wrongly) suing, it will be them.

The EFL have punished us per their own processes, guidelines and timelines, if Boro aren’t happy with that, take it up with the EFL. Oh, they did, they were suing them, but suddenly the EFL start coming after us again which appeased Boro, who then take the opportunity to exact their own revenge as well. Wycombe, have no case against us at all. We re-submitted our accounts within agreed timelines. Again, not happy with that take it up with the EFL, they agreed the timelines.

Expecting ANY help from the EFL, when our neck would be replaced by their own on the chopping block, it just isn’t going to happen, so Derby are the convenient target they can all take aim at, no matter the cost.

Self-serving, self-interest, at the expense of the things (clubs, players, fans) which the EFL is supposed to protect. You couldn’t ask for a more perfect case example of why the EFL is not fit for purpose and needs to be replaced as soon as possible.

Football, is in a complete mess, from top to bottom. This is on their watch. They are accountable and they are failing football, it’s members, their fans, and everyone and anyone connected to those member clubs. The biggest scandal to come out of this will be for there to be no change. That simply cannot be allowed to happen.

[Caerphilly Ram]

Nixon backing up what many of us think, shining a big ol’ spotlight on the EFL, Boro and Wycombe forced their reactionary public statements, well done all ? Got to keep going now to further back up how questionable their stances are. 
I still feel we’ll end up having to compromise in some way with a settlement if we want the club to exist in its current form, either that or the Admins/Potential new owner has to have the minerals to take it on through the courts…I just don’t see that happening due to time and potential risk if they were to win the cases. 

[StarterForTen]

I wonder what the true cost of running the club until the summer is? £5m, £7m and £8m figures have been bandied about, but do any of them take into account natural trading incomes? Do they include football transfer fee liabilities (like to Arsenal and Poznan) that fall due over the next six months, as I don't believe a club in Administration will be held to a payment schedule (though they will need to be satisfied in order to exit Administration and retain EFL status)?

I ask as, with a bit of belt tightening added in (but no fire sale), the shortfall might only be £2m-£3m (I say ONLY...!!)

If that is the case, is that too big a gamble for a bidder to stake?

Perhaps the route out of this impasse is for the PB to buy the Club those months of grace and for the disputing parties to agree an expedited arbitration process over these lingering claims (surely that's not much of a compromise given the messages coming out in the last 24 hours about not wanting to see DCFC die?) and those unknown liabilities will become known liabilities.

They might be zero; they might be £40m; or they might be a figure somewhere between. The point is, once known, the PB can either carry on with the purchase or pull out. The worst they can be exposed is that stake money.

 

Edited January 19, 2022 by StarterForTen
tidying up the syntax