Double-Edged Sword

[Gone]

9 minutes ago, Miggins said:

Would you not agree that over the last 30 years there are far more families going to matches? Granted that 18 - 40 year old men are still in the majority and probably make up the bulk of the away fans. Maybe the families just go more to the home games? You go to away matches and I don't so I won't argue! ?

I dont think there has been huge changes to be honest especially since we moved to PP as far as families going, I think they always have. Even at the BBG with the key club etc, I do think more females attend games but I wouldn’t say it’s a huge amount more. Away games, I’ve seen no changes in the travelling fans demographics maybe others have but I genuinely haven’t. 

Edited September 26, 2021 by TexasRam
*debate not argue ?

[Bob The Badger]

3 hours ago, 24Charlie said:

Sorry I have an open mind on most things but not drugs.

 

If you pick and choose when you’re open minded then you’re not really open minded. 

[Carl Sagan]

17 hours ago, 24Charlie said:

Sorry I have an open mind on most things but not drugs.

My question would be is that on "drugs" or do you mean "legal drugs" or do you mean "illegal drugs"? Caffeine is a huge stimulant. Should that be banned? Alcohol is much the most toxic drug people can use and abuse, with the possible exception of heroin depending on how you measure toxicity. Cannabis is only super-strength "skunk" nowadays because of prohibition. When America had prohibition for alcohol, were there exquisite gins and lovely craft beers or were people forced to drink super-strength moonshine? Laced with other toxins as there was no regulation?

People should be allowed the choice if whether they drink coffee, smoke a cigarette, do a line of coke, have a double vodka and tonic or eat a hash cake. It's bonkers and irrational that two of those things are illegal when you compare them with the others. Personal choice, personal responsibility.

Of course I get that people have individual bad stories surrounding illegal drugs, but I would argue this is a lot to do with the organized criminality that surrounds them and the way this destroys lives. It would be a million times better for people to partake in a safe environment, knowing exactly what they are taking.

[MackworthRamIsGod]

17 hours ago, 24Charlie said:

Sorry I have an open mind on most things but not drugs.

 

With the username 247 Charlie aswell ? I jest...

You should go to a rave one time, go into that rave and just witness and experience the love you encounter. None of the scare stories you read or see in the news, no monsters, just really happy shiny people who want to be your friend.

Then, the following week go for a night down Derby Town, probably not so many drugs about as everyone will be consuming the very legal alcohol, just see how much peace and love you experience then.

Drugs aren't the problem, the attitudes from governments ARE the problem. Holland are way ahead of the game, huge rave scenes over there, drug purity tests at every event, never any drug related deaths at raves.

When drugs like Marijuana has the healing qualities it has and ecstasy has been proven to improve people suffering with parkinsons disease, it's incredibly sad we still have such a backward view on SOME drugs, as they can significantly improve people's lives.

It is all about education.

Anyway, I'm off to buy some booze and fags.

[Shipley Ram]

14 hours ago, sage said:

Was talking to a West Ham mate tonight who told ,e there's been a massive increase of their away fanbase getting coked up at games.  

I've just been talked to one on my workmates who is a Hammer. He said Leeds away was bedlam, songs about sex offenders, every standing all game annoying his pensioner mum who wanted to sit down. It ended with his mum being oushed over and hitting the deck so he wasn't happy about it. On the way back to the station they passed some roadworks, the signs and barriers got chucked at the police, and more abusive songs got sung.

[Bob The Badger]

1 hour ago, Carl Sagan said:

My question would be is that on "drugs" or do you mean "legal drugs" or do you mean "illegal drugs"? Caffeine is a huge stimulant. Should that be banned? Alcohol is much the most toxic drug people can use and abuse, with the possible exception of heroin depending on how you measure toxicity. Cannabis is only super-strength "skunk" nowadays because of prohibition. When America had prohibition for alcohol, were there exquisite gins and lovely craft beers or were people forced to drink super-strength moonshine? Laced with other toxins as there was no regulation?

People should be allowed the choice if whether they drink coffee, smoke a cigarette, do a line of coke, have a double vodka and tonic or eat a hash cake. It's bonkers and irrational that two of those things are illegal when you compare them with the others. Personal choice, personal responsibility.

Of course I get that people have individual bad stories surrounding illegal drugs, but I would argue this is a lot to do with the organized criminality that surrounds them and the way this destroys lives. It would be a million times better for people to partake in a safe environment, knowing exactly what they are taking.

I think you're right that it's the criminality behind the frugs that poses the real issue.

I used to sell tickets for parties in the early 90s out of my shop. There were 40 or so regulars and sometimes as many as 80 people go from the Matlock area. I only know one guy who never took e's os speed.

Not one of those people became a drug addict that I am aware of and I still know a lot of people in those circles and word would get back.

I know a ton of people who have had issues with drinking too much however, including me and a close friend.

I'm glad to say I've never smoked, but my mum, her father, her brother and one of her sisters died ((the other one who didn't smoke it still alive and well into her mid-80s) for diseases directly attributable to smoking.

Tobacco and alcohol pose a much greater threat to personal health than illegal drugs.

Alcohol is quite literally a highly toxic and addictive poison that cannot even be drunk neat, but people are ok with that.

[Gritstone Ram]

7 minutes ago, Bob The Badger said:

I think you're right that it's the criminality behind the frugs that poses the real issue.

I used to sell tickets for parties in the early 90s out of my shop. There were 40 or so regulars and sometimes as many as 80 people go from the Matlock area. I only know one guy who never took e's os speed.

Not one of those people became a drug addict that I am aware of and I still know a lot of people in those circles and word would get back.

I know a ton of people who have had issues with drinking too much however, including me and a close friend.

I'm glad to say I've never smoked, but my mum, her father, her brother and one of her sisters died ((the other one who didn't smoke it still alive and well into her mid-80s) for diseases directly attributable to smoking.

Tobacco and alcohol pose a much greater threat to personal health than illegal drugs.

Alcohol is quite literally a highly toxic and addictive poison that cannot even be drunk neat, but people are ok with that.

I think illegal drugs along with alcohol can cause a variety of problems. I know a lot of people who aren’t here anymore due to both. I am not saying everyone goes that way but I also know that these can also effect your mental health and lead to depression anxiety etc. 

If I was going to give anyone some advice it would be stay away from the lot.

[Stive Pesley]

1 hour ago, MackworthRamIsGod said:

When drugs like Marijuana has the healing qualities it has and ecstasy has been proven to improve people suffering with parkinsons disease

See also a lot of evidence now about the positive effects of microdosing  psychedelic drugs for treating long term depression and other mental health issues

We ought to be able to have grown up conversations about all drugs, seek to decriminalise and stop the politicians pandering to the reactionary and cyclical mindset of drugs must be bad because they are illegal

19 minutes ago, Bob The Badger said:

Tobacco and alcohol pose a much greater threat to personal health than illegal drugs.

Not disagreeing per se, but is that more pronounced and obvious because they are so widely used and the impacts of them understood (because of their legal status)? I think most illegal drugs would have a detrimental impact on personal health if used in excess

 

 

Kinda funny that a guy I used to know who was a massive cokehead/pillhead is now all over FB with antivax propaganda because "he doesn't trust what's in it or what effect it might have on his body" ?

[Leeds Ram]

18 hours ago, angieram said:

This thread wasn't about whether cocaine should be legalised, but about the poor behaviour of some fans. Whether it is due to alcohol or drugs, fact is some fans at away games are out of contol and their behaviour is impacting on the rest of us.

Do we try to modify that behaviour, whatever it is due to  or just throw in the towel and accept away matches are no go areas for some fans?

I wouldn't be overegging the problem tbh which I think you're in danger of doing. Away games aren't in my experience anywhere near 'no go' areas for fans, we have a minority of 'fans' who are badly behaved and generally anti-social but these are mostly vastly outnumbered by more sensible supporters. 

The ability to modify behaviour at the ground is probably quite restricted unless you want to increase the stewarding and policing presence which is itself a big problem. I've been to a fair few grounds such as Birmingham where the police have caused more problems and escalated tensions amongst supporters. Your original plan of marking out spaces for certain groups of people is inherently flawed due to the nature of the ticketing system too. 

Ideally, you'd want to try and create a less 'drinking all the beers on the train' vibe and limit drug taking by using sniffer dogs where possible etc. By limiting these things that would hopefully ensure more people don't lose their heads and can control themselves creating better outcomes and less trouble. How you'd go about that though is anyone's guess since you'd be trying to change a part of what is seen by some as the 'away day culture'. 

Edited September 27, 2021 by Leeds Ram

[OUTSIDER]

following Derby county can turn you to drugs.... doctor prescribed ones of course  ? 

[angieram]

22 minutes ago, Leeds Ram said:

I wouldn't be overegging the problem tbh which I think you're in danger of doing. Away games aren't in my experience anywhere near 'no go' areas for fans, we have a minority of 'fans' who are badly behaved and generally anti-social but these are mostly vastly outnumbered by more sensible supporters. 

The ability to modify behaviour at the ground is probably quite restricted unless you want to increase the stewarding and policing presence which is itself a big problem. I've been to a fair few grounds such as Birmingham where the police have caused more problems and escalated tensions amongst supporters. Your original plan of marking out spaces for certain groups of people is inherently flawed due to the nature of the ticketing system too. 

Ideally, you'd want to try and create a less 'drinking all the beers on the train' vibe and limit drug taking by using sniffer dogs where possible etc. By limiting these things that would hopefully ensure more people don't lose their heads and can control themselves creating better outcomes and less trouble. How you'd go about that though is anyone's guess since you'd be trying to change a part of what is seen by some as the 'away day culture'. 

I am speaking from my experience. You are 28. I am 64.

Supporting my club away from home is getting harder and harder due to people like you who can't see the problem.

[atherstoneram]

On 26/09/2021 at 12:37, lrm14 said:

Yeah pretty common. I know quite a few people, not just Derby fans, who treat it as part of the matchday experience now.

I don't think you can stop it without being extremely invasive.

Nothing to stop sniffer dogs being used at the turnstiles,let the dog pick the scent up,detain them for a search so they miss the match,the message would eventually get through.

[Foreveram]

34 minutes ago, Leeds Ram said:

I wouldn't be overegging the problem tbh which I think you're in danger of doing. Away games aren't in my experience anywhere near 'no go' areas for fans, we have a minority of 'fans' who are badly behaved and generally anti-social but these are mostly vastly outnumbered by more sensible supporters. 

The ability to modify behaviour at the ground is probably quite restricted unless you want to increase the stewarding and policing presence which is itself a big problem. I've been to a fair few grounds such as Birmingham where the police have caused more problems and escalated tensions amongst supporters. Your original plan of marking out spaces for certain groups of people is inherently flawed due to the nature of the ticketing system too. 

Ideally, you'd want to try and create a less 'drinking all the beers on the train' vibe and limit drug taking by using sniffer dogs where possible etc. By limiting these things that would hopefully ensure more people don't lose their heads and can control themselves creating better outcomes and less trouble. How you'd go about that though is anyone's guess since you'd be trying to change a part of what is seen by some as the 'away day culture'. 

I have a really radical idea, why don’t we have an area for standing for those that want to stand and an area with seats in it so people can sit

[WamRam]

I saw the pics and videos of fans outside the globe looking like they're just gonna be exactly how they were. 

So me and a couple of mates decided to get a taxi to the common room sports bar. Watched the football and the golf in peace. Enjoyed it much more. 

I love this club, but our fans sometimes are such a bunch of annoying little so and so's. Seems to be the usual 16-20 year old's in the usual "clobber"

[Ambitious]

Excessive drug use in Derby explains how Erik Alonso came close to buying the club, at least. 

[jono]

On 26/09/2021 at 11:53, TigerTedd said:

I remember being in a pub outside old Trafford (a long time ago when we were in the premier league, Jim smith days). The United fans in there were singing ‘96 was not enough.’

we were trying to work it out. ‘96 wasn’t the treble year, so what are they singing about. 

turns out it was a chant about Hillsborough. 

the line is nothing but a dot in the distance to some of these idiots. 

It is probably the part of the game that I dislike more than any other. I remember Leeds fans chanting Munich 58 Munich Munich 58. 
 

There is so much that is good about fan chants and banter .. it’s risqué .. so it should be. It’s part of the release that some need and it doesn’t do any harm. The opposition gets to give as good as it gets … But cross that line then It isn’t funny, those that do just don’t understand and never will. I saw a phrase in an article the other day .. “dredged from the slurry at the bottom of the gene pool” 

[Leeds Ram]

1 hour ago, Foreveram said:

I have a really radical idea, why don’t we have an area for standing for those that want to stand and an area with seats in it so people can sit

you don't think once the 'standing' area of an away game sells out they'll simply buy the seating area tickets? The lack of availability and culture is the big issue for away games that means segregation unlike home games is going to be unlikely to solve it in my book. 

[Leeds Ram]

1 hour ago, angieram said:

I am speaking from my experience. You are 28. I am 64.

Supporting my club away from home is getting harder and harder due to people like you who can't see the problem.

I'm not denying the problem of a minority of fans causing problems and issues for others. It's certainly not my fault there's a minority of fans who make it more uncomfortable than it should be for others like yourself to attend, it's the minority of fans fault who are causing the issues. I think where I disagree is both your view on some forms of chanting as expressed earlier in the thread and the idea away days are becoming 'no go areas' for fans. The situation on standing is pardon the pun long-standing, the vast majority of away crowds stand and that's been the case for literally decades so there's nothing new there and I don't think there's an easy solution to that. 

If you want to avoid the minority of people pre game especially if you've been around the block a few times it's surprisingly easy to do from my experience. Take Sheffield for instance; you want to avoid them don't get the 9 o clock train get the 11 o clock one, don't go to the globe and instead go to a pub on another street and get to the stadium before 2.20. If you're in your seat by 2.30 you'll have had maximum 5-10 minutes of interaction pre game in the concourse with them.

Of course people shouldn't be forced into these kinds of measures it's sad that's the case and something should be done about the minority but as to what that looks like is a difficult question. 

[VulcanRam]

3 hours ago, Leeds Ram said:

I wouldn't be overegging the problem tbh which I think you're in danger of doing. Away games aren't in my experience anywhere near 'no go' areas for fans, we have a minority of 'fans' who are badly behaved and generally anti-social but these are mostly vastly outnumbered by more sensible supporters. 

The ability to modify behaviour at the ground is probably quite restricted unless you want to increase the stewarding and policing presence which is itself a big problem. I've been to a fair few grounds such as Birmingham where the police have caused more problems and escalated tensions amongst supporters. Your original plan of marking out spaces for certain groups of people is inherently flawed due to the nature of the ticketing system too. 

Ideally, you'd want to try and create a less 'drinking all the beers on the train' vibe and limit drug taking by using sniffer dogs where possible etc. By limiting these things that would hopefully ensure more people don't lose their heads and can control themselves creating better outcomes and less trouble. How you'd go about that though is anyone's guess since you'd be trying to change a part of what is seen by some as the 'away day culture'. 

Well preventing people who had drugs on them/clearly off their heads from drugs or alcohol from entering the stadium would be a start and might make them think twice. 

I'm not overly pious about all this and have been travelling away too many years to worry having seen the worst of what away days can bring. As someone said, a few unnecessary chants are better than the constant threat of a glass in the face or being stabbed. Or being subjected to a hailstorm of milk bottles as we once were at Gillingham; one of the more novel away fan attack strategies. And thankfully they seem to have stopped throwing piss all over you at the City Ground.

However, I'm vehemently anti-drugs and simply do not accept that class A drugs such as coke or heroin should be legalised or even that somehow they're less dangerous than smoking or drinking. The amount of tobacco/alcohol you need to consume for it to become a major health risk - is anyone really saying that taking the proportionally same amount of coke or heroin would also not pose significant danger? Police I know have to spend most of their time dealing with drug-related crime, not alcohol or tobacco-related crime.

Thankfully now we've stopped indoor smoking, the only people smokers can harm is themselves, so crack on. Personal choice. It's not personal choice when someone off their head on something or other punches or stabs you, which seems to happen on a regular basis in town. 

 

[Bob The Badger]

3 hours ago, Foreveram said:

I have a really radical idea, why don’t we have an area for standing for those that want to stand and an area with seats in it so people can sit

That's so insane it might just work!