Experienced manager

[MuespachRam]

16 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

Last season is irrelevant in terms of points on the board, yes.

But not when it comes to things that can contribute to a team’s success moving forward - momentum, belief, confidence, mentality, character and spirit.

All of it can be carried from one season into the next, both positively and negatively.

If we had stayed up after a storming run of form, you can bet the mood around the club throughout the summer and up to now would be much more positive.

So Norwich, who currently sit rock bottom after getting hammered the last 2 games, have momentum, belief, confidence, great mentality, character and sprit do they.....?

IF what you say is true....then surely no one comes into this season with more of a positive spirit after staying up in the last game of the season, it doesnt get much more exciting than that, definitely better than all those teams who started off mid table, played all season mid table and ended up mid table.....

[Ibby]

Alex Neil

[vonwright]

For what it's worth, I'm extremely happy with Rooney. Positives: attitude (he's a natural born winner); contacts (no Rooney, no Morrison, for instance); real-life experience (he knows the difference between good and exceptional, he lived on that fine margin and played with others who did the same). I'd also argue his interviews show he's someone with a much deeper understanding of tactics and man-management than I would have given him credit for. Another massive positive: attitude. He's stuck around at Derby despite all the chaos, bit his tongue, bided his time. You can say 'ah well but he has no choice!' but I don't believe that. He's Wayne Rooney and frankly he'd could get a better paid gig with better prospects somewhere else. Bottom line is he's done better than Cocu - a far more experienced manager, someone more obviously suited to running a club. 

We have many, many problems but Rooney isn't one of them. I'm incredibly grateful he stuck around.

Edit: there's this assumption with people like Rooney (or Beckham) that they are simply lucky, 'naturally gifted' kids who no nothing about football or graft etc etc. It's nonsense. The two things all top players have are a) supreme dedication and focus and b) a will to be the absolute best. That doesn't guarantee they will be great managers but it's a damn good place to start.) 

Edited August 23, 2021 by vonwright

[plymouthram]

2 hours ago, Jimbo Ram said:

Not really, just disputing the fact that nobody else would want the job. Judge him after 10 games ???

Judge him at the end of season, Manchester utd gave Ferguson 4 seasons before he brought some trophy to the table and he had previous success at Aberdeen

[Jourdan]

1 minute ago, MuespachRam said:

So Norwich, who currently sit rock bottom after getting hammered the last 2 games, have momentum, belief, confidence, great mentality, character and sprit do they.....?

IF what you say is true....then surely no one comes into this season with more of a positive spirit after staying up in the last game of the season, it doesnt get much more exciting than that, definitely better than all those teams who started off mid table, played all season mid table and ended up mid table.....

Norwich are a poor example. Their opening two games were Liverpool at home and Manchester City away.

You and I both know that with the best will in the world, momentum, belief, confidence, character, spirit and a winning mentality are all likely to be non factors when the gap in quality is so big.

If we are using the Premier League as an example, what about Brentford who have four points from two games since promotion? What about Watford who also have a win on the board at this early stage? What about Leeds last season who started the season after promotion strongly with 10 points from six games?

You have the reverse too - look at how poorly we started the following season after relegation in 2007-08. Momentum, belief, confidence, spirit and mentality - there were no signs of any of it.

Let’s see where we are under Rooney 10-15 games from now. If we are winning more regularly, then I’ll happily be proven wrong.

[May Contain Nuts]

10 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

You and I both know that with the best will in the world, momentum, belief, confidence, character, spirit and a winning mentality are all likely to be non factors when the gap in quality is so big.

Mistake number one, assuming that trollpachram is giving his honest and considered opinion based on all the evidence at hand rather than playing Devil's Advocate.

Ask yourself how many posters have been so very clearly in the wrong & FOS with every single 'opinion' they've ever presented on the forum!

Edited August 23, 2021 by Coconut's Beard

[MuespachRam]

1 hour ago, Coconut's Beard said:

Mistake number one, assuming that trollpachram is giving his honest and considered opinion based on all the evidence at hand rather than playing Devil's Advocate.

Ask yourself how many posters have been so very clearly in the wrong & FOS with every single 'opinion' they've ever presented on the forum!

Because It isn’t your opinion then It can’t be my honest opinion…!?? 

[DesertRam]

On 19/08/2021 at 14:22, i-Ram said:

Must be getting difficult to buy shirts his size.

Not many people know this, but he was attacked by a Bat when he was very young,

and has been unable to pronounce the letter C at the start of words ever since. Its really

quite tragic -  your probably thinking it was a cat, no it really was a furry brown bat -

poor bunt

[DazzaRam]

6 hours ago, Jourdan said:

Norwich are a poor example. Their opening two games were Liverpool at home and Manchester City away.

You and I both know that with the best will in the world, momentum, belief, confidence, character, spirit and a winning mentality are all likely to be non factors when the gap in quality is so big.

If we are using the Premier League as an example, what about Brentford who have four points from two games since promotion? What about Watford who also have a win on the board at this early stage? What about Leeds last season who started the season after promotion strongly with 10 points from six games?

You have the reverse too - look at how poorly we started the following season after relegation in 2007-08. Momentum, belief, confidence, spirit and mentality - there were no signs of any of it.

Let’s see where we are under Rooney 10-15 games from now. If we are winning more regularly, then I’ll happily be proven wrong.

You keep saying judge Rooney after 10/15 games. Load of rubbish. If we dont get this Embargo lifted it dont matter whos in charge. We are in big trouble. This squad will get worn down by the Championship. You could put Guardiola in charge and we would still be in trouble. This is not a fair level playing field for Rooney. For you to think it is just smacks you dont like Rooney. simple as that. Or you dont understand the state of the club. 

[Crewton]

I think Rooney was spectacularly unlucky with both injuries and referees decisions last season. Losing first Davies, then Bielik, and finally Gregory, Mengi and Edmondson (all of whom were starting to make a real impact) undermined the impressive recovery he oversaw after taking sole charge and the run in to the end of the season. Some of the refereeing decisions that cost us points were so appalling that they smacked of a conspiracy. He may have erred by changing tactics and formation too much in the latter part of the season, but if he'd not changed things around during a poor run he'd have been blasted for that too. Of course, many people believe the initial recovery was due solely to Bielik, and the fact that Kazim was finally fit enough to start, but that's far too simplistic. There was good organisation and tactics that played to our strengths, a switch to a more direct style that reduced defensive errors. And ultimately, he was able to create sufficient team spirit to ensure they didn't simply give up at 2-3 down against Wednesday. 

After all that happened, keeping us up was a notable achievement which, I feel, has earned him a bit more respect and patience than he seems to be getting from some fans. 

[The Scarlet Pimpernel]

So here we are again having to justify optimism. 

[G STAR RAM]

On 20/08/2021 at 12:59, Leeds Ram said:

we have played 3 teams tipped to be in a major relegation fight and got 4 points. I'm really not sure why the OP is so excited about our form and crowing. Forest have played coventry, blackburn and bournemouth so they've had a harder set of fixtures. Hughton is a good manager and despite the difficult start he should pick it up for them. Yes, no appointment is a slam dunk but that doesn't mean you don't have a good set of criteria for who you want to manage your club. 

Interested to know what parameters you are applying to measure this?

Spanning the start of this season, and the end of last season, Forest have not won for 11 games.

Despite the tough matches that you mention, during this time they have played -  Bristol City who I believe had the worst form at the end of last season,  Sheffield Wednesday who were relegated, Huddersfield who were in the relegation battle and Preston who have made a poor start to this season.

My Forest supporting mate says Hughton is a dinosaur and the football is awful to watch. 

If the WhatsApp messagea doing the rounds is genuine too it sounds like some of his players feel the same!

[cheron85]

On 19/08/2021 at 21:29, Charlotte Ram said:

Chris Hughton, a name that has been mentioned on this board as an experienced manager we should/could have bought in after Cocu was fired, is doing really well at Notts Forest, 3 games in and the cognoscenti in the Trent End are screaming you don’t know what your doing and demanding he is fired after 3 games. My point is that any managerial appointment is a crap shoot and can end in disaster no matter what the length of managerial experience, therefore I would state categorically our manager is not doing badly as a novice. 

I would argue it's not that simple - any manager can do exceptionally well at a specific club - But equally any manager can also do exceptionally bad at another - There are examples everywhere of successful managers who have done poorly at one/two clubs - Mourinho won the league in 4 different countries yet he couldn't halt the slide at Spurs

You appoint an experience manager because they have an (on average) better record - A better chance of doing well for you - But it doesn't always pan out - Equally a newly appointed rookie may do really well for you (see Lampard)

I'm not saying I'd want to appoint any of these guys but Warnock, Jackett, McCarthy, Grayson, Adkins - They all get jobs because clubs know what they're going to get from them - Probably a short period of stabilisation and a pragmatic approach to gaining points

I think Rooney seems to understand he doesn't have the players to be winning every game 4-3 so he sets up to keep clean sheets and rely on a moment or two or brilliance from the likes of Lawrence/Morrison/Sibley etc to win him the game - A surprisingly pragmatic approach for a rookie manager and should be respected

[Chester40]

10 minutes ago, The Scarlet Pimpernel said:

So here we are again having to justify optimism. 

The poster above you wrote '... keeping us up was a notable achievement which, I feel, has earned him a bit more respect and patience than he seems to be getting from some fans'. 

That to me is complete nonsense. He was lucky as hell to get the job, lucky as hell to stay up, lucky as hell to keep his job. 

A win and two draws is an ok start and probably above par considering the circumstances he has faced (and his previous record) but the teams faced haven't been the best. 'Let's see how things go before we get too excited', that seems fair enough to me.

I've been to 3 games so far this season (including pre - season) and the first time I felt there was a massive difference was the Boro game which I wasn't actually at. People saying you have to be there to have an opinion on anything is strange to me. Sometimes watching on TV is a better perspective than one when you are sat behind a goal. 

 

[GboroRam]

2 hours ago, DesertRam said:

Not many people know this, but he was attacked by a Bat when he was very young,

and has been unable to pronounce the letter C at the start of words ever since. Its really

quite tragic -  your probably thinking it was a cat, no it really was a furry brown bat -

poor bunt

Can he pronounce words that start with k? 

/python 

[Raich Carter]

20 minutes ago, cheron85 said:

I would argue it's not that simple - any manager can do exceptionally well at a specific club - But equally any manager can also do exceptionally bad at another - There are examples everywhere of successful managers who have done poorly at one/two clubs - Mourinho won the league in 4 different countries yet he couldn't halt the slide at Spurs

You appoint an experience manager because they have an (on average) better record - A better chance of doing well for you - But it doesn't always pan out - Equally a newly appointed rookie may do really well for you (see Lampard)

I'm not saying I'd want to appoint any of these guys but Warnock, Jackett, McCarthy, Grayson, Adkins - They all get jobs because clubs know what they're going to get from them - Probably a short period of stabilisation and a pragmatic approach to gaining points

I think Rooney seems to understand he doesn't have the players to be winning every game 4-3 so he sets up to keep clean sheets and rely on a moment or two or brilliance from the likes of Lawrence/Morrison/Sibley etc to win him the game - A surprisingly pragmatic approach for a rookie manager and should be respected

I agree with this. There are many factors as to why a manager may succeed or not. Lamps had a LOT of support at Derby (look at where our loanees are now...) but class eventually shows. I don't think anyone would really doubt that Mourinho would have improved Spurs given time and money but the natives got restless and that's how it goes. 

As you say, the older, more experienced hands steady ships and get you so far but perhaps don't have the cache to attract stars nor the charisma to truly inspire. Perhaps Rooney is doing that job for our young players and Ravel - let's face it, Rooney has real-world experience of massive success (on-pitch) and failure (off-pitch) so he can relate. If you're Jags and the other experienced lads, you either know him or just want to be part of something more interesting than being yorped at by an old twit in tucked-in trackies (I'm glaring at you Warnock you fkn dinosaur).

Truth is, no-one knows if Rooney is any good or not because it's only time that will tell. Personally, I think he's got a VERY difficult job, I do think we'd attract other managers but I'm not sure they'd be as positive or 'let's crack on' as Rooney is because they need the money/the job so want to make sure they hang onto it. I think Rooney's only motivation is to make us as successful as he can so he can move onwards and upwards - with or without us I suspect (which is fair enough). That's a very different mentality to 'managing' upwards as perhaps a journey-man manager might need to.

If Rooney was sacked, I'd want Clough back. He loves (loved...?) the club and can do a job with little money. Yes, we'd be awful to watch and I'd probably be calling for his head 3 years later but right now, if Rooney went, I'd trust Nigel to do a job. Not that he'd come back.

[Crewton]

It's a major surprise that Hughton has been such an abject failure at Forest so far. His ppg record last season was only 10% better than Rooney's, despite being indulged in January with the signings of three of his favourite Brighton old boys, plus the likes of Luke Freeman and James Garner. He's starting to look like one of those managers who, after years of building a notable reputation, enter a terminal decline because their methods don't adapt to a changing environment. 

I'd never bet against him getting it right over time, but will he get it? 

[Tyler Durden]

It's hilarious double standards that some posters who are calling Hughton an abject failure after 3 games are by the same token lauding praises on Rooney after the same number of games. 

I remember many an old thread especially regards Cocu saying he should be given more time, number of games played so far that season wasn't really a fair sampling rate etc but here we are again making cosmic character judgements on a managers prowess after 3 games in but selectively applying that judgment to boot. 

[Tyler Durden]

2 hours ago, Crewton said:

I think Rooney was spectacularly unlucky with both injuries and referees decisions last season. Losing first Davies, then Bielik, and finally Gregory, Mengi and Edmondson (all of whom were starting to make a real impact) undermined the impressive recovery he oversaw after taking sole charge and the run in to the end of the season. Some of the refereeing decisions that cost us points were so appalling that they smacked of a conspiracy. He may have erred by changing tactics and formation too much in the latter part of the season, but if he'd not changed things around during a poor run he'd have been blasted for that too. Of course, many people believe the initial recovery was due solely to Bielik, and the fact that Kazim was finally fit enough to start, but that's far too simplistic. There was good organisation and tactics that played to our strengths, a switch to a more direct style that reduced defensive errors. And ultimately, he was able to create sufficient team spirit to ensure they didn't simply give up at 2-3 down against Wednesday. 

After all that happened, keeping us up was a notable achievement which, I feel, has earned him a bit more respect and patience than he seems to be getting from some fans. 

Think snatching defeat from the jaws of victory would be far more apt. 

It was originally always in Rooney's hands to keep us up but after he oversaw that hideous winless streak we ultimately had to rely on Cardiff to bail us out on the last day or we would have gone down. Let's be fair. 

[RoyMac5]

1 minute ago, Tyler Durden said:

Think snatching defeat from the jaws of victory would be far more apt. 

It was originally always in Rooney's hands to keep us up but after he oversaw that hideous winless streak we ultimately had to rely on Cardiff to bail us out on the last day or we would have gone down. Let's be fair. 

You can't just look at the points from one game - its over a season, derr. Even Cocu's points kept us up!