Sack cocu

[Alph]

Definitely think there must be some kind of etiquette built within Dutch football. A bit like percentage football and the ugly stuff are things British football culture does well. I don't know why we're ashamed of it tbh

We are all ashamed of our Mick McCarthy, Tony Pulis, Neil Warnock etc. 

But it's a part of our game. Those guys might be the masters of embracing it but there are things we do within our game that make it faster and more physical than perhaps other places abroad. 

I think some cultures play the game like gentlemen. "You may attack now but you must not put it 'in the mixer' or 'hit it down the line'. Every pass must be measured and we will defend using this wonderful shape" 

Thats something we have been incorporating more and more in Britain  but our basics are still on full display at this level. We still face them every week

We try far too often to be so precise and thoughtful. We don't do any of the ugly basics. We are in half and half where we aren't good enough to thread our way through teams and we don't increase the chaos enough. We're too pretty. 

Look at LVG and De Boer. Two other cases where they came in and introduce proper football. Proper football with style and grace. Then someone punts it to Andy Carroll and they're undone. Not bad managers but just not adapted at all. 

[Tyler Durden]

7 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

He came on at 73 minutes - how long does he need to show something? I'd rather have seen Whittaker, but he's been cast aside just when it looked like he had something to offer!

I'd call that a cameo but yeah he did head the ball a couple of times. Can't think of anything else noteworthy though by that time I'd nearly fallen asleep.

[CBRammette]

7 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

He came on at 73 minutes - how long does he need to show something? I'd rather have seen Whittaker, but he's been cast aside just when it looked like he had something to offer!

Agree. Whittaker was just starting to look settled then he disappears - what does that do for his confidence. Would love CkR to be our new cult hero but have seen nothing to suggest he will but admit he has been given few minutes here and there only so that is perhaps unfair. But this is an example of the seemingly odd decisions.
I just feel really sad as to where we are at this morning football and off pitch and really wonder what rubbish is going on behind the scenes. Whole club just seems depressed. 

[MackworthRamIsGod]

2 minutes ago, CBRammette said:

Agree. Whittaker was just starting to look settled then he disappears - what does that do for his confidence. Would love CkR to be our new cult hero but have seen nothing to suggest he will but admit he has been given few minutes here and there only so that is perhaps unfair. But this is an example of the seemingly odd decisions.
I just feel really sad as to where we are at this morning football and off pitch and really wonder what rubbish is going on behind the scenes. Whole club just seems depressed. 

The Whittaker thing is strange, he was just starting to make name for himself, Eric Steele was saying he was the only shining light during a few poor games and then he disappears.

Same with Sibley, I know he was injured, but him and Whittaker in that Birmingham game looked fantastic and we are are quarter way through the season and both have become squad players, in a poor squad!

Buchanan being dropped yesterday, Max Bird on the bench. Anyone get the impression this is Cocu showing Mel what he thinks of his youth policy and academy?

 

[Zulu Ram]

I'm a rare contributor to forums, and not the "manager out" caller, but I can't deny waking at 4am just thinking where this has all gone so badly wrong. After watching the club since 1974 it's like seeing an aged relative slowly die, and there is that helpless realisation that there is nothing you can do but watch it happen this time.

Unless Mel takes action, and I still believe it'll be after Barnsley, the terminal decline will continue, his buyers will simply turn away and look for a more investable project, with decent initial returns. I fear if they by chance glance across and study Sunderlands fall from grace,  and inability to get out of L1 they will certainly will think twice. 

If he's not already been on the phone, Mel needs to soon, tell them what he's going to do, sack Cocu and stem the rot.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[CBRammette]

2 hours ago, Anag Ram said:

It felt strange last night.

Cocu had that wild eyed look about him from the start and looked angry with his players even in the first half.

I thought Byrne was poor again last night after a really impressive start to his career with us, and both Shinnie and Knight were not playing with the same efficiency. Upfront we looked really disjointed.

In the previous three games we played like a unit, even if a little toothless in attack. It looked like something had happened before the game because that wasn’t us at all.
 

It can’t help having a news story about the club virtually every week.

I think Rooney's position disrupted what Knight snd Shinnie had got going.  The 3 seemed on top of each other. If PC is going yo be sacked anyway then if he has to play Rooney contractually (that could also explain attitude of other players a bit as reduces chance to get in team and play in best position - nothing against him personally but then again he would be strong and outspoken behind scenes I think)  I would like him to just leave him out or on the bench to show his hands are tied and just really go for it against Barnsley with the team he wants. If we win he has made his point. If we dont he's off anyway. 

[ThePrisoner]

10 minutes ago, MackworthRamIsGod said:

Anyone get the impression this is Cocu showing Mel what he thinks of his youth policy and academy?

Nah, because Cocu likes the youngsters and they've been some of our best players under him.

[nottingram]

41 minutes ago, Alpha said:

Yeah, but the focus from either side isn't about the team. It's about being proven right over their forum rivals. 

Some of it is a natural path for the debate. For example if people said Lawrence and Waghorn being injured is whats making us play like this then when they return I think it's fair to do a kind of re-evaluation. 

It's the way people go about it that matters 

I am interested to hear what those people who provided such excuses think now. But getting their thoughts is difficult without sounding like a dick. 

Maybe so, I did just read the “Next manager” thread which had a little bit of that in, but then again I do feel the premise of such a thread was a bit disrespectful given we already have a manager in place. What gets people’s backs up is, I think, terms such as “clueless” or “C0C0” being thrown around as they add nothing to a debate but are just downright rude to a man who gives his all and carries himself exactly how you would hope a manager of your club would.

I am one who thought Lawrence and Waghorn coming back would help us and to be fair I think it did. They both looked good floating around in the 343. The problem we have is that yesterday a system that looked promising was ditched and I can’t excuse that and is part of the reason I lost a little bit of faith. My position has always been that I can’t see us getting relegated and things would come good in the long term as the squad continues to take shape. The trouble is the long term position has now been abandoned or parked because of the short term pressure but it hasn’t really led to any sort of uplift. 

One thing I’m sure we can all agree on is that it is a shame it has come to this. 

[ram1964]

During take over ,.Mel wouldn't want or possible couldn't remove Cocu unless implements Walsall as temporary first team coach.Can't see possible new owners wanting any fundamental commitments or changes being made at this time, nor Mel having to get his cheque book out.

[MackworthRamIsGod]

3 minutes ago, ThePrisoner said:

Nah, because Cocu likes the youngsters and they've been some of our best players under him.

Which begs the question, what was last nights team all about? It was a must win game, did Cocu choose experience over youth thinking the experience will get this win? If so that is worrying.

The horrible thing is, I actually think Cocu is desperately trying everything he can and nothing is working, we are literally just witnessing this mans Derby career ebbing away and it is sad.

The one thing we all need to desperately remember though, at no point would Cocu have chosen Hamer, Dowell, Paterson. He wouldn't have chosen for Keoghs career to end with the club, Mason Bennett to be a complete dick, CKR would not have been his choice up front, Chris Martin would have stayed. Through a series of unfortunate events, I personally dont feel anything has gone his way.

 

[AndyinLiverpool]

10 hours ago, Chris_Martin said:

Phillip Cocu. 

Emotionless, passionless and clueless.

Exactly how the team plays, reflects the manager perfectly.

You seem nice

[BondJovi]

17 minutes ago, Duracell said:

Maybe not just Holland, but anywhere where the players have a bit more tactical nous and don't look to the manager to provide leadership and motivation in quite the same way. I think Cocu's style and approach would work in Germany too.

It works both ways. Can't knock Warnock's record in this country, but can't see his approach working in La Liga. 

I remember reading an interview with a German player a few years ago. He said that in Germany the players will try to find a solution on the pitch without waiting for the manager, that is how they are taught. Whereas here, we wait until the manager makes the change. I do believe the FA are moving in that direction, but it will take time.

One of my biggest issues last night was no one on that pitch taking it upon themselves to change the game, take responsibility for the team. Also, in a game Cocu publicly called must win, those players didn't seem angry or annoyed by the result. No one seem pissed when Forsyth put another poor cross in. Even battlers like Waghorn seemed strangely subdued.

I am disappointed that no one really seemed to be playing like it was a must win, no one taking pride in their own performance. Cocu will take the fall but I am disappointed in far too many of those players. It is strange because you couldn't fault the endeavour in our recent games.

 

[kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong]

5 minutes ago, BondJovi said:

I remember reading an interview with a German player a few years ago. He said that in Germany the players will try to find a solution on the pitch without waiting for the manager, that is how they are taught. Whereas here, we wait until the manager makes the change. I do believe the FA are moving in that direction, but it will take time.

One of my biggest issues last night was no one on that pitch taking it upon themselves to change the game, take responsibility for the team. Also, in a game Cocu publicly called must win, those players didn't seem angry or annoyed by the result. No one seem pissed when Forsyth put another poor cross in. Even battlers like Waghorn seemed strangely subdued.

I am disappointed that no one really seemed to be playing like it was a must win, no one taking pride in their own performance. Cocu will take the fall but I am disappointed in far too many of those players. It is strange because you couldn't fault the endeavour in our recent games.

 

It's because they have clearly lost faith in what they are being asked to do.....every change in tactics and personel which doesn't translate to success makes it more likely that they will be more and more apathetic to Cocus plans.

This is what a downward spiral looks like and it is extremely difficult to stop without a decisive change,which in footballing terms means a change in manager and methods.

It's easier to blame the players than the manager,but they have played their hearts out over the previous two or three games with a poor return and it's all change again which leads to a loss.

Why should they have any confidence whatsover in him?

[RadioactiveWaste]

I really believed, but last night finished me.

There'd been some very fragile green shoots that 343 was going to work, we'd stopped losing and getting pasted, just needed to finish some chances and get a couple of wins over the line.

Then last night we were back to the first few games of the season, but not with 5 academy players in the team, but a team full of expierienced pros doing it. Such a backwards step was sickening to witness.

I think it's become untennable for Cocu, and I am deeply sad about it. I also think there is more than just "manager no good, get another one" going on.

[StarterForTen]

I am a big supporter of stability at football clubs, it tends to lead to more sustained success in the long run, but longevity is not enough on its own. If you are heading in the wrong direction, no matter how long you walk for, you'll never reach your destination.

14 goals scored in the last 19 first team fixtures; only once in that time (the dead rubber that was the last game of last season) have Derby scored more than once in a game. In that time - four months - the team has had Martin, Waghorn, Rooney, Lawrence, Sibley, Holmes, Jozwiak playing forward roles at various times. 

Analysis might suggest that way the team is set up to play will never work.

 

[Mostyn6]

There have been comparisons with Nigel Clough, and i made them myself previously, but sadly the comparison should probably be made with Phil Brown, the only differences being Cocu had his success prior to coming here and he has no fake tan. 
 

Nigel had the genuine love from some of his players, i cannot sense anything like that, which is odd as Cocu radiates the persona of a class human being. 

[richinspain]

51 minutes ago, NottsRammy said:

Im not going to dig them out now jesus .

Both Lowe and bogle and Malone all had little digs about training and malone was about atmosphere at the club and he wasnt meaning fans . It wasnt also these players endearing themselves to a new club it was deffo a slight dig and in my opinion its becoming apparent their is a slight toxic atmosphere behind the scenes at Derby .

If you cant tell from the body language of players you need to go to spec savers .

We need him gone and gone today a caretaker manager in place like wassal until the new owners bring their own man in , if they dont and we remain with Mel what about wassall on a perm basis depending on how the team perform short term .

 

I can see perfectly well what's happening on the pitch. I'm far from happy with it. However I thought that you were talking about very recent quotes.
Malone personally I would take with a pinch of salt. He appears to be "one of the lads" who likes a drink (obviously only going by the video from Joinersgate) and Cocu it would appear has shown him the door. It is patently obvious that the drink culture had to end. If you can't see that then you need to go to specsavers.

Bogle and Lowe did say that training was at a different level. I would think that the ability of the players is also at a different level. Being run around in training by Premier League players must be harder than Championship players, mustn't it?

As for a toxic atmosphere behind the scenes, could that also be due to some players not liking the drink culture, and others liking it too much?

I have been firmly Cocu in, but performances like last night make it very difficult to keep him on. I do hope that he can turn things around, however I think that his opportunity has now passed.

[DRBee]

25 minutes ago, nottingram said:

Maybe so, I did just read the “Next manager” thread which had a little bit of that in, but then again I do feel the premise of such a thread was a bit disrespectful given we already have a manager in place. What gets people’s backs up is, I think, terms such as “clueless” or “C0C0” being thrown around as they add nothing to a debate but are just downright rude to a man who gives his all and carries himself exactly how you would hope a manager of your club would.

I am one who thought Lawrence and Waghorn coming back would help us and to be fair I think it did. They both looked good floating around in the 343. The problem we have is that yesterday a system that looked promising was ditched and I can’t excuse that and is part of the reason I lost a little bit of faith. My position has always been that I can’t see us getting relegated and things would come good in the long term as the squad continues to take shape. The trouble is the long term position has now been abandoned or parked because of the short term pressure but it hasn’t really led to any sort of uplift. 

One thing I’m sure we can all agree on is that it is a shame it has come to this. 

For the bit I have highlighted , the word 'clueless' would be a good and rational response to the decision to change formation. Whilst performances have not produced the wins we hope for, that formation has improved results. Cocu's explanation for the change just doesn't make sense. 

[Hathersage Ram]

23 minutes ago, AndyinLiverpool said:

You seem nice

But Honest!

[BondJovi]

2 minutes ago, kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong said:

It's because they have clearly lost faith in what they are being asked to do.....every change in tactics and personel which doesn't translate to success makes it more likely that they will be more and more apathetic to Cocus plans.

This is what a downward spiral looks like and it is extremely difficult to stop without a decisive change,which in footballing terms means a change in manager and methods.

It's easier to blame the players than the manager,but they have played their hearts out over the previous two or three games with a poor return and it's all change again which leads to a loss.

Why should they have any confidence whatsover in him?

I actually think we always tend to blame the manager first. And the way football is run, players are very rarely held accountable. Very easy to do just enough.

I couldn't fault our players efforts recently, but last night was wrong. I wouldn't have changed the set up but it wasn't a change big enough to warrant a whole team not turning up.

I am not sure if you are suggesting that they almost gave up because they want Cocu gone. I didn't see a lack of confidence as such, I saw a lack of overall care about winning. And that attitude if so is unacceptable. 

Part of the reason we ended up in this mess was years of not putting enough responsibility on the players. And when you have a conveyor belt of managers, that it is easy to happen.