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Sack cocu


dantheram

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18 minutes ago, BathRam72 said:

Surely that is your opinion only unless you are a manager with vast experience.

Most people were banging on last night that Sibley should be brought on,,,,,,,,he was. What was wrong with Holmes?

To be honest none of our front line were exactly firing so why not Colin?????

Who would you have brought on and why?

That's a very difficult question as I wouldn't have started with the team or formation he did. It also suggests I am all-knowing with 20-20 hindsight!

We were woeful first half. The substitutions made not a jot of difference and mostly produced more of the same (eg Waghorn - ColinKR). Holmes has been terrible since lockdown and a liability defensively so I wouldn't have turned to him. Sibley has been out of form and is then given a few minutes to magically transform the sinking ship.

At half time I would have made big changes. Rooney could have come off and/or Shinnie. Forsyth was our player with the most space and his crossing was abysmal. Davies always looks vulnerable in a back 4.  

Lots of options to change things, Cocu didn't really seem to have any impact at all. 

 

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I don't like sacking managers after a bad run of games and elsewhere on this forum have said I've give Cocu until at least Christmas to turn things around - but last nights performance was desperate and more worryingly the players looked disinterested.

The Barnsley game is now key, if the players don't perform again there is obviously something seriously wrong and the international break would be a good time to act.

I would be sorry to seem him go, especially after everything he's had to deal as he seems like a decent bloke but win or lose, the very minimum you need is effort from the players.

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10 hours ago, nottingram said:

Well, for a start, the “club” is in a much better place now than it is when he took over. The squad is fairly close to being a blank canvas that a new manager can take over and move in whatever direction he so chooses. That hasn’t been the case for years. He has also brought through numerous youth players, think of Bird last season and compare it to a year prior to that (admittedly he has been off it so far this), Knight has established himself as one of the first names on the team sheet, Buchanan has looked stellar this season. People think it is easy to integrate youth players but a manager has to be brave to do it, it’s only recently when he became desperate for results that seems to have been foregone slightly. 

As for your second point, I guess that’s completely within your right. Personally I like having a well admired man in charge who is classy and dignified, much more than having a horrible oik. 

But anyway, I can’t really be bothered to argue with someone who calls me deluded for being able to recognise some positives. Have a nice evening ??

I don't agree that he has brought through numerous youth players! He has played them yes but actually Wassall deserves all this credit. Actually trying to give the credit to Cocu is disingenuous! I like to get behind a charismatic motivational manager, the problem is we have the complete opposite. The only positive is that I agree the squad as a whole is in better shape. So why can't he achieve better results. I think you jhave just proved my point!

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My belief has gone. 

The football is really weak. We haven't scored a goal from true open play in 10 attempts (even the Bournemouth goal was created by a set-piece) and the players look completely shot of confidence. I just can't see how it will be turned around.

Even counting the season as starting from Forest, which I did, the outlook has been bleak.

However. I do hope that when the inevitable happens, we treat Cocu with the same class he has given us. The man put a huge amount of his football reputation on the line and moved his family here and despite us throwing a lot of nonense at him, his loyalty and calm has remained steadfast. Cocu the man I admire hugely.

I also think we need to calm down with words like 'clueless'. You do not win three Eredivisie titles by accident. Evidently he is a good manager.

That he is a good manager and that it is patently not working here can both be true at the same time. I remember reading in the Athletic that Cocu's management style involves a culture where players dispute conflict themselves and work together to find solutions to problems. Speculation here, but I suspect that this approach doesn't work in English football, at least not at the moment. Given that the one time he didn't babysit the team and they decided to get battered and drive home, maiming our club captain in the process, suggests that English footballing culture simply isn't mature enough to handle that sort of management style.

It manifests itself in the way the team plays now. We have the cult of the manager in this country, and times like this require leadership. I think our classy, calm, continental coach hasn't got the skillset to provide that anymore.

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32 minutes ago, richinspain said:

Examples?

Im not going to dig them out now jesus .

Both Lowe and bogle and Malone all had little digs about training and malone was about atmosphere at the club and he wasnt meaning fans . It wasnt also these players endearing themselves to a new club it was deffo a slight dig and in my opinion its becoming apparent their is a slight toxic atmosphere behind the scenes at Derby .

If you cant tell from the body language of players you need to go to spec savers .

We need him gone and gone today a caretaker manager in place like wassal until the new owners bring their own man in , if they dont and we remain with Mel what about wassall on a perm basis depending on how the team perform short term .

 

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I had a worry in the back of my mind from day one

On 22 June 2018, Cocu was appointed on a three-year deal at Turkey's Fenerbahçe, who were under new ownership.[93] He was dismissed on 28 October with the club just one point and one place above the relegation zone

 

but I tried to ignore the last thing on his cv and hope it was a blip but I am thinking maybe only any good in holland

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1 minute ago, Dethorn said:

I had a worry in the back of my mind from day one

On 22 June 2018, Cocu was appointed on a three-year deal at Turkey's Fenerbahçe, who were under new ownership.[93] He was dismissed on 28 October with the club just one point and one place above the relegation zone

 

but I tried to ignore the last thing on his cv and hope it was a blip but I am thinking maybe only any good in holland

Maybe not just Holland, but anywhere where the players have a bit more tactical nous and don't look to the manager to provide leadership and motivation in quite the same way. I think Cocu's style and approach would work in Germany too.

It works both ways. Can't knock Warnock's record in this country, but can't see his approach working in La Liga. 

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9 hours ago, Ambitious said:

Although, if the takeover falls through for whatever reason, it will be Rooney who becomes the manager - no doubt it my mind. Jozwiak, on international duty, planted the seed suggesting how much of a leader he is in the dressing room. 

Well then, what do the rest of us know? Most wanted Cocu ffs! ?

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10 hours ago, nottingram said:

Not particularly excusing it, and I may well be guilty of it myself, but taking pleasure in seeing people proved wrong when your team has won is different to taking pleasure in seeing people proved wrong when your team has lost, no?

Yeah, but the focus from either side isn't about the team. It's about being proven right over their forum rivals. 

Some of it is a natural path for the debate. For example if people said Lawrence and Waghorn being injured is whats making us play like this then when they return I think it's fair to do a kind of re-evaluation. 

It's the way people go about it that matters 

I am interested to hear what those people who provided such excuses think now. But getting their thoughts is difficult without sounding like a dick. 

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I did not want to Cocu to go but I said if by the next international break it has not improved, he has to go, we are pretty much there. The takeover of the club certainly complicates the issue,  you wouldn't want to be in Mel's shoes especially as Cocu was his appointment.

Yesterday was not great but seen worse, some good passage of play but we lack intensity over 90mins. The championship is not a good league it is just full on football with a bit of quality and mistakes at the front and the back by the truck load.  To succeed you need to create lots of chances that average attackers will put in row Z and eventually score one or two.  You can guarantee that your defenders will mess up at least once so playing not to concede is not a good plan. This I feel is where Cocu falls short, great player in his days, coached good teams at good level but I am not convinced he got the idea of the championship (I thought Rosenior was brought in for that). Bielsa on the other hand did get it because that is the way he's always set out to play with intensity wherever he's been. The summer we appointed FL and the dirties got Marcelo, I thought we missed a trick there.

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2 hours ago, Chester40 said:

Because this is the first time I agree he is getting it seriously wrong. 

I haven't ever been a huge fan of his style of football and since the Norwich game I have had massive misgivings that 'negativity' was seen to have worked. 

But, he has had an awful lot to deal with, the transfer dealings have largely been good, I like him as a person and the idea of him bringing stability, he has brought through lots of academy players and has the profile to attract bigger names, and since Norwich we have shown flashes of improvement and players were coming back.

Last night was horrible though...a screeching handbrake followed by a car crash of a performance. Slow, ponderous, lots of strange decisions, poor substitutions, and most worryingly players seemingly going through the motions. 

So, I would accept he is seriously on the edge. But generally I wouldn't sack someone and totally start again unless I was 100% sure. If I spoke to him, the players and staff and felt his vague, shell-shocked press conference was still a reflection of how everyone felt today then I would seriously press him to think if he could see Sat being any different. 

There is a take over in the off-ing, so I would also see how they felt - maybe they would welcome a clean slate or maybe I just need to try and keep things steady for a week or two. There is only one game left so maybe I would let him have it to try and prove everyone wrong and see what characters we have in the dressing room. 

If Wassall takes over temporarily and does 'ok' (let's face it, it won't take much for results to be an improvement) then people will start to want him to take over permanently, which would be a huge mistake for me. 

Just demanding 'sack him' is slightly childish to my mind. Its not a Football Manager game, it takes clear reasoning and so whilst I won't be surprised or disgusted, I would just as much welcome a few days of reflection and then see what happens during the international break. 

A very reasoned post Chester but it has become clear that he has run out of ideas. We are virtually a quarter of the way through the season and have just seen in my view the worst performance of the season by far. The team is devoid of any idea of what they supposed to be doing and their confidence looks shot. He has had plenty of time to instill into the squad a footballing philosophy that works at this level but he has failed.

Cocu is a decent guy but he is simply the wrong man for the job, and to keep hoping against hope that he will turn things around is a waste of time that could be better spent getting someone in who knows how to get the best out of this current group of players.

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2 hours ago, Jourdan said:

I can see the merit in thinking we should give Cocu one more game and see if there is a reaction after last night.

But I think considering that we are playing Barnsley - a direct rival where relegation is concerned - it is too generous a stance.

This. We need points. We are not too good to go down!

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6 minutes ago, Duracell said:

My belief has gone. 

The football is really weak. We haven't scored a goal from true open play in 10 attempts (even the Bournemouth goal was created by a set-piece) and the players look completely shot of confidence. I just can't see how it will be turned around.

Even counting the season as starting from Forest, which I did, the outlook has been bleak.

However. I do hope that when the inevitable happens, we treat Cocu with the same class he has given us. The man put a huge amount of his football reputation on the line and moved his family here and despite us throwing a lot of nonense at him, his loyalty and calm has remained steadfast. Cocu the man I admire hugely.

I also think we need to calm down with words like 'clueless'. You do not win three Eredivisie titles by accident. Evidently he is a good manager.

That he is a good manager and that it is patently not working here can both be true at the same time. I remember reading in the Athletic that Cocu's management style involves a culture where players dispute conflict themselves and work together to find solutions to problems. Speculation here, but I suspect that this approach doesn't work in English football, at least not at the moment. Given that the one time he didn't babysit the team and they decided to get battered and drive home, maiming our club captain in the process, suggests that English footballing culture simply isn't mature enough to handle that sort of management style.

It manifests itself in the way the team plays now. We have the cult of the manager in this country, and times like this require leadership. I think our classy, calm, continental coach hasn't got the skillset to provide that anymore.

I really don't accept most of this. What is patently obvious is that Championship football and Eridivisie are like chalk and cheese. 

All this talk about how classy Cocu is I really have to take umbrage with. A classy man would reflect on his tactics and philosophy and understand that perhaps he needs to change. I do not call someone who acts and speaks at best in an average tone classy. 

You make out as though we should be grateful that he accepted a generous offer and proposition from Mel. Well I don't, if you accept the challenge then do your home work, understand the league and plan accordingly.

I call him stubborn, intransigent and negative!

 

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I think that was the final straw.

more tinkering. More confusion. More disaffected players.

there are lots of extenuating circumstances, but ultimately it’s GAME OVER. 

no one believes that he has the answers. 

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12 minutes ago, Hathersage Ram said:

I don't agree that he has brought through numerous youth players! He has played them yes but actually Wassall deserves all this credit. Actually trying to give the credit to Cocu is disingenuous! I like to get behind a charismatic motivational manager, the problem is we have the complete opposite. The only positive is that I agree the squad as a whole is in better shape. So why can't he achieve better results. I think you jhave just proved my point!

How can you possibly not agree?! He literally has brought through numerous youth players, that isn’t an opinion that is a fact... 

Wassall doesn’t pick the team, Cocu does, and he has picked them to play and they have largely excelled. It isn’t easy to play youth players over experienced pros.

I haven’t proved anyone’s point as I am fully aware results aren’t good enough. The squad is in decent shape now and that is to Cocu’s credit. Just a shame he hasn’t been able to get the best out of them

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1 hour ago, Tyler Durden said:

CKR wasn't on that long to be able to influence anything.

He came on at 73 minutes - how long does he need to show something? I'd rather have seen Whittaker, but he's been cast aside just when it looked like he had something to offer!

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18 minutes ago, Hathersage Ram said:

I don't agree that he has brought through numerous youth players! He has played them yes but actually Wassall deserves all this credit.

This I also agree with. He's messed most of them about, chopping and changing - which of them looks better than the end of last season? Whittaker? But he'd dropped him...

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1 minute ago, RoyMac5 said:

He came on at 73 minutes - how long does he need to show something? I'd rather have seen Whittaker, but he's been cast aside just when it looked like he had something to offer!

I'd say that Jack Stretton looks like a better player than Whittaker, but to thow him into this could destroy his career before it begins.

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12 minutes ago, Alpha said:

Yeah, but the focus from either side isn't about the team. It's about being proven right over their forum rivals. 

Some of it is a natural path for the debate. For example if people said Lawrence and Waghorn being injured is whats making us play like this then when they return I think it's fair to do a kind of re-evaluation. 

It's the way people go about it that matters 

I am interested to hear what those people who provided such excuses think now. But getting their thoughts is difficult without sounding like a dick. 

This. One poster lamented last night that folks were revelling in the situation last night. I see no evidence of that.

I have seen for a while now two entrenched sets of protagonists with one set stuck in the mindset that Cocu should be given some infinitesimally long amount of time whereby the goalposts seemingly shift day by day according to whatever new unforeseen external factor manifests itself which is part and parcel of what a normal football manager has to deal with. 

I don't think anyone has turned round and said I told you so. And at least some of the more entrenched posters have now revised their original opinions which is to their credit.

It didn't have to end up this way but perhaps some folks need to look at why it did rather then make sweeping statements. Having antagonist threads springing up didn't help proceedings but still shouldn't deflect from the dogmatic view projected about Cocu coming good. Maybe he will. But not at our club. 

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