Sack cocu

[ramboy63]

1 hour ago, Hathersage Ram said:

I don't agree that he has brought through numerous youth players! He has played them yes but actually Wassall deserves all this credit. Actually trying to give the credit to Cocu is disingenuous! I like to get behind a charismatic motivational manager, the problem is we have the complete opposite. The only positive is that I agree the squad as a whole is in better shape. So why can't he achieve better results. I think you jhave just proved my point!

Cocu was brought in to get rid of the older players and that would reduce our massive wage bill.Bringing young players through is great we all want that but at the same time they have to be ready and good enough for the long slog and sadly i dont think they are,squad players yes but not week in week out

We have seen Bird now struggle,Sibley picking up injuries,Knight best of the bunch but struggled last night

[ramboy63]

1 hour ago, MackworthRamIsGod said:

The Whittaker thing is strange, he was just starting to make name for himself, Eric Steele was saying he was the only shining light during a few poor games and then he disappears.

Same with Sibley, I know he was injured, but him and Whittaker in that Birmingham game looked fantastic and we are are quarter way through the season and both have become squad players, in a poor squad!

Buchanan being dropped yesterday, Max Bird on the bench. Anyone get the impression this is Cocu showing Mel what he thinks of his youth policy and academy?

 

Probably the penny as dropped and realized they are not ready for the riggers of Championship football on a regular basis

[cheron85]

15 minutes ago, richinspain said:

I have been firmly Cocu in, but performances like last night make it very difficult to keep him on. I do hope that he can turn things around, however I think that his opportunity has now passed.

This exactly sums up my position this morning

We'd started to look good against stronger opposition and then seem to have not stepped up our game against a much weaker side - Last night needed to be when we set out a marker and showed that this project can work - And it didn't

Key question for me is whether playing Rooney is really the right thing to do? The rest of the side seems to have learned to work together well over the last 3 games and I'm not entirely sure where Rooney fits any more - It's difficult to drop your best player but (for me) if he doesn't have an obvious beneficial role then why play him?

[RIMBAUD]

5 minutes ago, cheron85 said:

This exactly sums up my position this morning

We'd started to look good against stronger opposition and then seem to have not stepped up our game against a much weaker side - Last night needed to be when we set out a marker and showed that this project can work - And it didn't

Key question for me is whether playing Rooney is really the right thing to do? The rest of the side seems to have learned to work together well over the last 3 games and I'm not entirely sure where Rooney fits any more - It's difficult to drop your best player but (for me) if he doesn't have an obvious beneficial role then why play him?

And if he’s not contributing to an effective team then he can’t be your best player. 

[Duracell]

1 hour ago, Hathersage Ram said:

I really don't accept most of this. What is patently obvious is that Championship football and Eridivisie are like chalk and cheese. 

All this talk about how classy Cocu is I really have to take umbrage with. A classy man would reflect on his tactics and philosophy and understand that perhaps he needs to change. I do not call someone who acts and speaks at best in an average tone classy. 

You make out as though we should be grateful that he accepted a generous offer and proposition from Mel. Well I don't, if you accept the challenge then do your home work, understand the league and plan accordingly.

I call him stubborn, intransigent and negative!

 

Isn't that what I said?

But anyway, I agree, he could learn a thing or too about calm and positivity from a post like this.

[Ghost of Clough]

12 hours ago, RammingStone66 said:

It does worry me that Rooney can't be taken out due to a contract or something like Red 32 refusing to pay his wages if he is fit but doesn't play. 

If it's not something like that then I don't understand Cocu's loyalty to Rooney at all.

Based on most performances this season I'd agree with you. However, Rooney was arguably our best offensive player yesterday - most shots, most key passes... Clarke and Fozzy were our joint 2nd best for shots.

[RoyMac5]

1 hour ago, CBRammette said:

If PC is going yo be sacked anyway then if he has to play Rooney contractually (that could also explain attitude of other players a bit as reduces chance to get in team and play in best position - nothing against him personally but then again he would be strong and outspoken behind scenes I think)  

All this is just so unlikely, but even more importantly just a smokescreen!

Rooney had a decent game last night, not great but better than Waghorn. He's just getting fit again. I can't see why a good manager can't make a team work with him in it, but Cocu isn't looking like a good manager atm!

[SamUltraRam]

1 hour ago, Alpha said:

Definitely think there must be some kind of etiquette built within Dutch football. A bit like percentage football and the ugly stuff are things British football culture does well. I don't know why we're ashamed of it tbh

We are all ashamed of our Mick McCarthy, Tony Pulis, Neil Warnock etc. 

But it's a part of our game. Those guys might be the masters of embracing it but there are things we do within our game that make it faster and more physical than perhaps other places abroad. 

I think some cultures play the game like gentlemen. "You may attack now but you must not put it 'in the mixer' or 'hit it down the line'. Every pass must be measured and we will defend using this wonderful shape" 

Thats something we have been incorporating more and more in Britain  but our basics are still on full display at this level. We still face them every week

We try far too often to be so precise and thoughtful. We don't do any of the ugly basics. We are in half and half where we aren't good enough to thread our way through teams and we don't increase the chaos enough. We're too pretty. 

Look at LVG and De Boer. Two other cases where they came in and introduce proper football. Proper football with style and grace. Then someone punts it to Andy Carroll and they're undone. Not bad managers but just not adapted at all. 

Got to agree.

I played with an English team on a tour of Holland years ago. The Dutch team were completely unready for the 'English' style of blood and thunder, pace and long balls. They were technically better than us but played at one pace. They even had a separate senior team where the players were able to play in their 40's because of the slow technical methodical build up.

This the Championship, it's brutal and its nasty and we need to include some of that 'English' style somewhere in our play. Cocu should know that by now but we're still playing like a 'Dutch' team

[CornwallRam]

40 minutes ago, MackworthRamIsGod said:

Which begs the question, what was last nights team all about? It was a must win game, did Cocu choose experience over youth thinking the experience will get this win? If so that is worrying.

The horrible thing is, I actually think Cocu is desperately trying everything he can and nothing is working, we are literally just witnessing this mans Derby career ebbing away and it is sad.

The one thing we all need to desperately remember though, at no point would Cocu have chosen Hamer, Dowell, Paterson. He wouldn't have chosen for Keoghs career to end with the club, Mason Bennett to be a complete dick, CKR would not have been his choice up front, Chris Martin would have stayed. Through a series of unfortunate events, I personally dont feel anything has gone his way.

 

I'm not sure that's sustainable. Cocu was the manager when they were recruited. None of us know how involved he was in that. You could be right, but equally Cocu could have personally chosen all three players. Even if he wasn't involved, he accepted the job knowing how the recruitment works and failed to get the best out of the players brought in.

There are good reasons why we are not in the top two. There are only excuses for being in the bottom two.

 

[cheron85]

6 minutes ago, RIMBAUD said:

And if he’s not contributing to an effective team then he can’t be your best player. 

Yes but also this:

1 minute ago, RoyMac5 said:

I can't see why a good manager can't make a team work with him in it, but Cocu isn't looking like a good manager atm!

 

I've been defending Cocu all season cos I think for his whole Derby career he's been dealt bad hand after bad hand after bad hand

But last night he had a decent amount of fit players, from senior to junior, attackers and defenders and we lost against a team who we should be beating - That's not good enough

If he's still around on Saturday we need to absolutely hump Barnsley for him to stay longer

[RoyMac5]

10 minutes ago, RIMBAUD said:

And if he’s not contributing to an effective team then he can’t be your best player. 

If ONLY we had an effective team then! You should ask why the manager cannot get the best out of a great player (still a good one) like Rooney. If we were top 6 I could see what you're saying, but as we aren't I can't but think what you're saying is scapegoating! 

[RIMBAUD]

4 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

If ONLY we had an effective team then! You should ask why the manager cannot get the best out of a great player (still a good one) like Rooney. If we were top 6 I could see what you're saying, but as we aren't I can't but think what you're saying is scapegoating! 

I’m saying nothing of the sort. I think WR lack of impact is a symptom of a greater malaise. Are you by the same measure scapegoating the manager?

[RoyMac5]

1 minute ago, RIMBAUD said:

I’m saying nothing of the sort. I think WR lack of impact is a symptom of a greater malaise. Are you by the same measure scapegoating the manager?

Yep, sure am. If he can't get better out of the current squad he needs to go.

Edit:

we have a 'solid' back four, decent choices in midfield, wide players and even an aging striker or two. What's the problem?!

[RIMBAUD]

Just now, RoyMac5 said:

Yep, sure am. If he can't get better out of the current squad he needs to go.

I think the same. 
 

it looked pretty obvious to me at halftime that the players didn’t get it. And didn’t really want  to try to. 

[lagavulinram]

Cocu looked gutted post match interview.

im still pro Cocu. Second half was better. Back to old Derby habits of letting last minute goals in. The ref was shocking. 

i just dont know what Derby need.

[Hathersage Ram]

29 minutes ago, Duracell said:

Isn't that what I said?

But anyway, I agree, he could learn a thing or too about calm and positivity from a post like this.

No that really isn't what you said!

[kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong]

46 minutes ago, BondJovi said:

I actually think we always tend to blame the manager first. And the way football is run, players are very rarely held accountable. Very easy to do just enough.

I couldn't fault our players efforts recently, but last night was wrong. I wouldn't have changed the set up but it wasn't a change big enough to warrant a whole team not turning up.

I am not sure if you are suggesting that they almost gave up because they want Cocu gone. I didn't see a lack of confidence as such, I saw a lack of overall care about winning. And that attitude if so is unacceptable. 

Part of the reason we ended up in this mess was years of not putting enough responsibility on the players. And when you have a conveyor belt of managers, that it is easy to happen. 

No,I'm not suggesting they want him gone,I'm suggesting that they have lost faith in him and/or his methods.

And this squad is primarily Cocus chosen players,so the merry go round at the club really shouldn't be effecting them if they haven't experienced it here.

The players are Cocus tools but he's the carpenter.

[Rolleston]

We have 9 points from the last 15 league games, at this rate the total for a season would be 28 points and we all know where we would end up. Cocu's had a lot to contend with, so do we just accept that the job is tough and drop into League One. We need a new manager sooner rather than later, someone who can organise and get the best out of the players. Lets not over analysise the opposition and play to our strengths.

[kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong]

7 minutes ago, lagavulinram said:

Cocu looked gutted post match interview.

im still pro Cocu. Second half was better. Back to old Derby habits of letting last minute goals in. The ref was shocking. 

i just dont know what Derby need.

A new manager

[TheresOnlyWanChope]

Are the players not playing for the manager? I really want Cocu to succeed and felt we were turning a corner but when the realities are presented to me, it’s hard to argue. One of worst starts ever, not scoring more than once, consistently conceding late on. I still think a win would help us turn that corner, I honestly could see a Derby win last night but another defeat is not good enough. I think too many players are not doing enough and our injuries and lack of depth has really shown as we don’t have adequate replacements and competition for places with players on form.

Cocu needs to win the next match and that might not even be enough. I still think there are some positives (new signings look pretty good) and we have had some rotten luck in matches and with injuries. 

I don’t think the manager can take all the blame but he will pay the price. The players need to step up.

I fear the lack of Pride Park crowd is damaging. I know all the teams are suffering but we enjoy large crowds and have traditionally done well at home over the years. 
I still have faith we can turn this around but something needs to change, whether it’s the manager, or personnel in the team or team mentality or fitness levels.