The Politics Thread 2019

[Stive Pesley]

3 minutes ago, Norman said:

Obviously, yes.

But you know how parliament works right. The party in government has a majority so it should always be able to pass it's legislation.

It was hard-line Brexit Rebel Tories that stopped May's deal. Every time

They are liars and anti democratic snakes. And now they are in power and we're all screwed

[Norman]

43 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

But you know how parliament works right. The party in government has a majority so it should always be able to pass it's legislation.

It was hard-line Brexit Rebel Tories that stopped May's deal. Every time

They are liars and anti democratic snakes. And now they are in power and we're all screwed

But Brexit isn't about parties.

And i think you will find the snakes and liars are spread evenly throughout parliament. 

[1of4]

Isn't democracy a wonderful thing.

If parliament pass a bill to legislate the stopping of us leaving the EU without a deal. Then Johnson and his cohorts must abide by it.  No government should ever contemplate disregarding the law of the land.

After watching how our MPs have performed recently, I doubt they'll manage to organise themselves sufficiently enough to get a bill passed in time

As for Johnson getting his bully boy to threaten to have any conservative MP deselected, who votes to stop us leaving without a deal. This could backfire on him come the next election. Any deselected MP could stand as an independent and cause a split in the tory vote. If Farage's brexit party is still relevant come the next election, then the tory vote is already under threat without an independent tory standing against them.

[Eddie]

So the scumbag liar cum phoney prime minister is going to sack any Tory who votes against the party - just like he did. What an utter hypocrite.

What next - charges of treason? I wouldn't put it past him.

[dog]

It's quickly gone from

He can't

To

He won't

To

He has

Wonder how far this will go....

[McRamFan]

Like I said, Germany 1933.  Probably won't end in a war, will probably end with the UK in a recession, civil unrest, the £ crashing through the floor and a political black hole.  Probably filled with the anti everything gamons.

BoJo - 'King of the World', seller of the Emperor's new clothes, Master of the ********, racist, narcissistic.  He has fooled you all.

People bang on about stopping 'free movement', however they fail to see that the largest amount of inward immigration is from non EU countries, such as India and Pakistan.

Bang on about laws and sovereignty, nothing is 'forced' on the UK, we have either opted out or vetoed more laws and motions that any other country in the EU.

Yes the EU is a broken machine, and the UK is as much to blame as anyone else.  Instead of trying to make it work, it was put up as an excuse for any woes the UK suffered.  After all the EU made it a legal requirement that you can have a holiday, such a bad thing, also having free medical help if you are poorly whilst traveling in the EU.

This is a Tory civil war, being played out at the cost of the country. They don't give a poo about the average 'joe' who works 8-12 hours a day and has a family or small business to look after, they are playing a game that lines their pockets with the most revenue they can screw out of this self imposed mess.  It has duck all about honoring the vote of an illegal referendum, that is also non-binding.

[BaaLocks]

11 hours ago, Norman said:

But Brexit isn't about parties.

And i think you will find the snakes and liars are spread evenly throughout parliament. 

While I agree with your second sentence I think your first is a thing of history. Just take the opening line of the BBC lead article this morning "Conservative MPs have been warned not to rebel against the government over Brexit, as opposition MPs plan legislation to stop no deal." Don't see too much in there about MPs being allowed to not vote on party lines, align that to Cummings comments yesterday and it's pretty clear - you're either with us or you're out. A very strange tactic to pull in an all but minority government.

Basically, Johnson is pretty limited on where he can go with this. He knows if he goes Deal or Extension he will lose the next election, he also knows (on record) that No Deal will screw us all. His only viable tactic is to play the biggest political bluff in this countries history and hope that the EU blinks first. If they don't, he's off like the last two and we're left with a broken political system and even more Farage than we currently get. Big stakes and (imho) irresponsible gambling of the highest order.

[Stive Pesley]

14 hours ago, Norman said:

But Brexit isn't about parties.

I agree - and have said so in this thread at least a couple of times.

However it *is* about parties when it comes to getting the legislation passed.

The opposition MPs (ie those outside of the Tory/DUP bloc) never had the majority to achieve anything, so it matters not whether they were leave or remain

The Tory/DUP bloc had a big enough majority to pass the withdrawal agreement, had it not been for the ERG rebels within the Tory Party

My point is that these are now the guys in charge. Having said that the WA was not a hard enough Brexit and therefore blocked it. They are now saying it's imperative that we leave the EU by 31 Oct with or without a deal. Expecting people to not notice that they voted to NOT leave the EU with the deal that was agreed...

Respecting democracy by acting like the least democratic government I've ever lived through

Regardless of whether you voted Leave or not - you better hope that BJs shower don't succeed on their current path, because this is just the beginning. If they get away with subverting parliamentary process now - they will see that as a green light to carry on doing so towards whatever ends they fancy

 

 

 

[alexxxxx]

16 hours ago, Norman said:

But Brexit isn't about parties.

And i think you will find the snakes and liars are spread evenly throughout parliament. 

The only reason Brexit referendum ever happened was to settle the matter for the conservatives.

[Wolfie]

2 hours ago, SchtivePesley said:

The opposition MPs (ie those outside of the Tory/DUP bloc) never had the majority to achieve anything, so it matters not whether they were leave or remain

The Tory/DUP bloc had a big enough majority to pass the withdrawal agreement, had it not been for the ERG rebels within the Tory Party

 

The Lib Dems were never going to vote for anything other than a new referendum but Labour could have voted for the deal at any point. Their wish list bullet points were a joke and they still voted against the only deal on the table and the best deal we were likely to get from the EU.

Corbyn put getting another general election above all else (and still is). He can claim no moral high ground concerning the absolute mess we're currently in.

[alexxxxx]

4 hours ago, BaaLocks said:

While I agree with your second sentence I think your first is a thing of history. Just take the opening line of the BBC lead article this morning "Conservative MPs have been warned not to rebel against the government over Brexit, as opposition MPs plan legislation to stop no deal." Don't see too much in there about MPs being allowed to not vote on party lines, align that to Cummings comments yesterday and it's pretty clear - you're either with us or you're out. A very strange tactic to pull in an all but minority government.

Basically, Johnson is pretty limited on where he can go with this. He knows if he goes Deal or Extension he will lose the next election, he also knows (on record) that No Deal will screw us all. His only viable tactic is to play the biggest political bluff in this countries history and hope that the EU blinks first. If they don't, he's off like the last two and we're left with a broken political system and even more Farage than we currently get. Big stakes and (imho) irresponsible gambling of the highest order.

Or more likely, roll the election dice. He might not lose an election prior to a no deal.

Basically, ask for an extension until dec 31st (say) to hold an election - likely granted.

(Try to) win the election on a no-deal ticket (of course, use government expenditure on explaining the fantasy benefits of no deal before calling the election, naturally. The reason for no deal will be portrayed as the EU are punishing us/inflexible/unimaginative/don't respect our sovereignty/internal traitors etc). 

Win the election and go for no deal, with 5 years to try to pick up the pieces, blaming everything on everyone but themselves.

Maybe a year of recession to take us to 2020 and then 4 years of slow growth. Not able to deliver on his spending promises but that doesn't matter..

If Labour win a majority I think we still get Brexit.

Coalition scenarios are harder to predict.

 

[WhiteHorseRam]

Corbyn keeps calling for a GE … God knows why …. I'll just leave this here ...

 

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/08/30/voting-intention-con-33-lab-22-lib-dem-21-brex-12-

 

… and this state of affairs after three years of the lamest, and now increasingly most controversial Tory Govt ever ….

[WharfedaleRam]

If we get a GE soon, it’ll be like a new referendum. Vote Johnson and leave on 31st October with or without a deal. Vote Corbyn and goodness knows what we’ll get!

[Eddie]

6 hours ago, Van Wolfie said:

The Lib Dems were never going to vote for anything other than a new referendum but Labour could have voted for the deal at any point. Their wish list bullet points were a joke and they still voted against the only deal on the table and the best deal we were likely to get from the EU.

Corbyn put getting another general election above all else (and still is). He can claim no moral high ground concerning the absolute mess we're currently in.

Hmmm. Corbyn to blame? What about the ERG and the monacled moron?

[TimRam]

Looking forward to a Corbyn+Sturgeon coalition government. Will be good for Britain. #sarcasm

[EtoileSportiveDeDerby]

Been in France for the past 2 weeks to see family and friends, their political views range from very right to very left. One topic I enjoy in the Football section on this forum is "Views from the outside" so I thought i would post the same re. my experience and the questions I have been asked most about Brexit during my stay.

1) What is going on ? To which I just replied even god does not not know! 

2) He reminds me of Trump, is he the same ?

3) Is he just as mad ?

3) Why ?

4) When ? 

5) What do normal people think or want ?

6) Is it going to happen ?

Not a single person ever said I hope we are next to leave. We should do the same, it makes sense. Because there is very little reported on the news, a fraction of what there is in the UK, people here seem to be confused and not bothered that much it would seem. The environment gets a lot more press and air time. Only one person seemed to be aware of backstop being the main sticking point. The average Jean does not seem to be that bothered that trade with the UK might be a bit more tricky going forward. There seems to be a general feeling that it is a self made problem that should be sorted by the UK, not really the EU's fault. It certainly does not feel like popular demand/opinion would lead to politicians having to demand the EU to bend over backward to get a deal through.

Make what you want of it...

 

 

[AndyinLiverpool]

24 minutes ago, EtoileSportiveDeDerby said:

Been in France for the past 2 weeks to see family and friends, their political views range from very right to very left. One topic I enjoy in the Football section on this forum is "Views from the outside" so I thought i would post the same re. my experience and the questions I have been asked most about Brexit during my stay.

1) What is going on ? To which I just replied even god does not not know! 

2) He reminds me of Trump, is he the same ?

3) Is he just as mad ?

3) Why ?

4) When ? 

5) What do normal people think or want ?

6) Is it going to happen ?

Not a single person ever said I hope we are next to leave. We should do the same, it makes sense. Because there is very little reported on the news, a fraction of what there is in the UK, people here seem to be confused and not bothered that much it would seem. The environment gets a lot more press and air time. Only one person seemed to be aware of backstop being the main sticking point. The average Jean does not seem to be that bothered that trade with the UK might be a bit more tricky going forward. There seems to be a general feeling that it is a self made problem that should be sorted by the UK, not really the EU's fault. It certainly does not feel like popular demand/opinion would lead to politicians having to demand the EU to bend over backward to get a deal through.

Make what you want of it...

 

 

Having spent time recently in Ireland, I would say the situation there is similar. There is a bit more concern re Irish trade (especially given that the person who is now Home Secretary openly suggested not long ago that the UK use its geographical position between the continent and Ireland as a bargaining chip) but really the general view seems to be that the Irish government's position is the right one.

Of course, the British government always make good pantomime villains to the Irish, especially one led by someone who wants to be Churchill but there seems to be no will to be of any assistance to the British in what is a problem of their own making.

Highgate will have a greater insight than I have on this though.

[EtoileSportiveDeDerby]

18 minutes ago, AndyinLiverpool said:

Having spent time recently in Ireland, I would say the situation there is similar. There is a bit more concern re Irish trade (especially given that the person who is now Home Secretary openly suggested not long ago that the UK use its geographical position between the continent and Ireland as a bargaining chip) but really the general view seems to be that the Irish government's position is the right one.

Of course, the British government always make good pantomime villains to the Irish, especially one led by someone who wants to be Churchill but there seems to be no will to be of any assistance to the British in what is a problem of their own making.

Highgate will have a greater insight than I have on this though.

Very interesting especially as the Irish backstop seemed to be the deal breaker a few weeks ago. I am not convinced it is anymore, no deal Brexit seems to be the goal at all costs despite the rhetoric.

Churchill vs Bojo I wonder what future historians will have to say...

[Gritstone Ram]

I don’t think it matters what happens next. If you bleat loud enough you’ll overturn whatever the result you don’t like.

[Highgate]

1 minute ago, AndyinLiverpool said:

Having spent time recently in Ireland, I would say the situation there is similar. There is a bit more concern re Irish trade (especially given that the person who is now Home Secretary openly suggested not long ago that the UK use its geographical position between the continent and Ireland as a bargaining chip) but really the general view seems to be that the Irish government's position is the right one.

Of course, the British government always make good pantomime villains to the Irish, especially one led by someone who wants to be Churchill but there seems to be no will to be of any assistance to the British in what is a problem of their own making.

Highgate will have a greater insight than I have on this though.

I'd tend to agree with all of that. 

I think that it's fair to say that Brexit is probably bigger news in Ireland than in the rest of the EU 27, given that we will so exposed to it's ramifications. People are worried about the effect it will have on our exports/imports to and from the UK (by far our largest trading partner) and the economy in general, and I think there is every reason to be worried. 

When the original referendum was proposed nobody really thought it would pass and people were shocked when it did.  People were also surprised that the GFA and the Irish border never seemed to get a mention until well after the referendum result. People genuinely didn't seem to understand why the UK would choose such a path. I think people here don't understand that the UK has quite a different relationship to Europe than Ireland does.  There is nearly zero appetite here to follow the UK out of the EU for example, even though it would obviously simplify a lot of things.

It's fair to say that, traditionally, Irish people are usually instinctively and reflexively 'anti-Tory' and Ireland always seems more comfortable when a Labour government sits in Westminster but I think many people here would be perfectly willing to help out the UK, if anybody knew how to help.  Given that the Brexit process is in a perpetual state of confusion and bitter division it's seems impossible to know what assistance would look like.  One thing is true though, no assistance would be offered that could threaten the GFA.  The Belfast Agreement is simply sacrosanct.  That's pretty much the one thing we all agree on over here and everything will be done to try to get the UK to honour it's commitment to it (although if EU doesn't back Ireland in that regard then our bargaining position is hopelessly weak). 

It would be very interesting to hear the views on Brexit from the other 25 nations.  Who's up next? ?