Jourdan

Even I must admit that I am starting to feel sorry for Rooney.

When the points deductions are finalised, he will be left to do a job that is way beyond his current skillset and level of experience, and he has seemingly been left in the dark and the cold by the very people who brought him to the club.

Let’s see what he can produce moving forward and let’s see where he is 12 months from now. I don’t see that he has done anything out of the ordinary so far.

Staying at the club, and contributing to the costs of away travel and such things will surely reflect well on him and of course build goodwill.

However, let’s not forget - he probably will have been consulted by his agent or PR team on the best steps to take.

I think the next seven games will be critical. We don’t know when these deductions will hit, but we know they are coming.

So it’s all about setting ourselves a platform now. Look at the heartening response from Rooney and the players today - the emotion, the passion, the bravery, the desire. We have to bottle that and take it into each and every game.

If you look at the games up to the end of October, we have a chance to really whittle things down.

If we can be in a position where the deficit is wiped out with 30 games to go, you just never know.

All I want to see is us showing some pride and fighting until the end. Based on today, the signs are good.

8 minutes ago, bimmerman said:

plymouths a poo hole mate,home park is on the edge of the area where the hookers and the druggies hang out,and at the end of the road where the murders were a few weeks ago. probably an away day to avoid-i worked in plymouth for years and it makes chad look like kensington

Sorry to hear that. There was a 99 Flake with your name on it.

What a desperately desperate situation.

On the bright side, we could have Plymouth away next season.

@Jimbo Ram and @RoyMac5 making sandcastles - the pre-match entertainment we’ve all been waiting for!

5 hours ago, IslandExile said:

"An eye for talent"?

Both Cocu and Rooney have been praised for what they've been able to bring in.

Burley, "a prime example", had a fantastic goalscorer Gregorz Rasiak that would make a huge difference to the Cocu/Rooney sides. Idiakez scored regularly aswell. Burley had other quality players too.

I'll give you a better example - Brian Clough, simply the best manager our club has ever had. Struggled, certainly results wise, in the first full season until he was able to bring in his own players, spending money on fees, and mould the team the way he wanted.

7 points from 7 games isn't what any of us would regard as a good start in normal circumstances but given where the club is right now, it's far better than many of us feared.

Having unrealistic expectations will inevitably lead to being perpetually negative about the team's performance.

Name a "good manager", currently available, who you think would have us playing "attractive winning football".

Many that have voiced criticism of Cocu and others that didn't want Rooney as manager, suggested either Chris Hughton or Paul Cook would do a better job.....? 

Edit to add:

You say "An ability to manage in difficult situations?"...... Both Cocu and Rooney have managed the team with dignity (hotel rooms aside) throughout exceptionally difficult situations. To imply otherwise is very harsh.

We do this dance a lot. There are tens of managers out there who could get us playing good football and winning more than 1 in 7. 

The club is not in a position to sack the manager, so there is no point naming names.

Maybe Hughton or Cook would have done a better job. Who really knows? Does what they have done at Forest and Ipswich wipe out the rest of their managerial careers where they have done good work by and large? Now if they were consistently failing in their jobs, I could understand you. But even the very best managers will have blemishes on their records or take on the wrong fit from time to time.

As for recruitment, it depends on who you ask, doesn’t it? Some would say that Cocu and Rooney have brought in good players. Others would probably disagree.

Burley had a fantastic goalscorer like Rasiak and fantastic players like Idiakez because he had a canny scouting team to recruit such players.

Take Rasiak, he was signed on a free transfer. Idiakez too.

OK, the market is more limited these days but if under the Three Amigos we were able to unearth quality, why not now?

The players signed by Rooney may turn out to be fantastic, but they hardly required much imagination or research.

Perhaps 7 points from 7 is better than people feared, but what is there to fear? It’s the Championship. It’s wide open. Teams beat the odds all of the time.

Who is being unrealistic? No-one is expecting us to beat the likes of Fulham or WBA. It’s not as if I am saying it was two points dropped on Tuesday.

But personally I would expect us to fare better and show more vs the likes of Birmingham, Huddersfield, Peterborough and Forest.

2 points from 12, when one of those teams was in League 1 and the other three were fighting relegation last season, surely we ought to be kicking ourselves?

1 hour ago, IslandExile said:

I'd say what's common to both Cocu and Rooney is that - through no fault of their own - they inherited the worst squad we've had for years at a club in absolute turmoil, spiralling downwards.

To play "attractive, winning football" I would argue the manager needs a firmer foundation than this club currently provides.

Good coaching? An eye for talent? Tactical prowess? An ability to manage in difficult situations?

Does all of that count for nothing? Or can attractive, winning football only be achieved in optimal settings?

Now I totally agree with you that the club is in a far from healthy position, but we won’t be the first nor the last club in the Championship to face adversity, turmoil, and be disadvantaged in some respects.

Of course the working conditions for both managers have been far from ideal, but that is part and parcel of football.

Aside from Marco Silva at Fulham, I doubt there is a single manager in the Championship who is content with what they have, nor a single manager who doesn’t have problems to contend with.

The point is, good managers can find a way to make the best of a difficult situation and succeed in spite of their circumstances. Look at what Burley did here in 2004-05, as a prime example.

Clearly we have let our standards diminish when 7 points from 7 games is deemed a promising start and there is a widely held belief that this is the best we can hope for.

3 minutes ago, sage said:

The football we have played this season, bar the West Brom game, is about as attractive as you can get from these players.

Keep smiling 

I imagine the same was said in 2013 before McClaren took over from Clough.

It is pure assumption to say that Rooney is getting the absolute maximum out of the players.

Truth is you just never know what another manager could do. 

I just don’t see the point in getting worked up defending two managers who won’t live long in the memory where this club is concerned. Not in a positive sense, at least.

PS. Winning tends to elicit smiles, doesn’t it?

Cocu v Rooney is a pretty redundant debate at this point.

We have seen glimpses, flashes, moments of promise under both, but ultimately neither of them have been good enough over a sustained period of time and both have experienced particularly barren slumps in form.

I wouldn’t be in a hurry to defend either of them.

Imagine if we had a manager who played attractive, winning football.

Derby 1-0 Stoke

Morrison FRGS

I don’t agree with the lack of transparency coming out of the club.

But let’s be honest, trust between the fans and the club is broken.

Would we even believe what the club has to say?

I know that if Stephen Pearce told me Ankara was the capital of Turkey, I would have to ask 100 Geography teachers just to be sure.

6 hours ago, MuespachRam said:

You do realise that Wolves “flitted” to exactly 13th last season don’t you…and if you want to be really picky, Leeds and Wolves are both currently “flitting” about in 15th and 16th place.! Ha ha 

 

You do realise 13th, indeed a poor season by the standards Wolves had set previously, is still a higher finish than anything Brighton have achieved in the past four years.

I was obviously referring to the two 7th place finishes Wolves achieved and how they reached the Europa League quarter finals.

This is what would inspire us and these are the kind of lofty aims that would get Derby fans excited and what we would be dreaming of. Not 15th and hard luck stories.

You also do realise Leeds and Wolves are 15th and 16th after just two games. If they were there after 38 games, I’d get your point. But it’s like saying West Ham are title contenders now after two games.

On 23/08/2021 at 02:00, Bris Vegas said:

I really like them. Entertaining football, great recruitment and plenty of young talent. Good manager too.

I reckon they can finish top half this season.

For me they have overtaken the likes of Palace, Southampton and Burnley. I’m kind of jealous of them. They’re exactly how I would want Derby to be after top-flight consolidation.

 

 

Brighton have a respectable model, but this is now their fifth season in the Premier League and their highest finish thus far is 15th.

So talk of them having overtaken teams and even finishing in the top half seems a bit fanciful to me.

I do agree that there is a lot to admire about the way they operate, but until they translate promise into points on the board and kick on, why would we harbour feelings of jealousy?

Let’s be honest, Derby fans wouldn’t be satisfied with flitting between 15th and 17th for four years.

We would be looking to emulate the likes of Leeds, Wolves and Villa.

Bring back Phil Brown, all is forgiven.

1 minute ago, BramcoteRam84 said:

Fair points

I don’t doubt his potential. There is obviously a reason City made a beeline for him and paid so much in compensation.

But it’s one of those loan moves that could go either way when you are that age and so inexperienced in footballing terms, especially coming into a struggling side lacking creativity.

He could be a Brewster and fly, or he could be a Troy Parrott, who went to Millwall on loan with significant hype and did so well he ended up on loan in League One in the second half of the season.

It’d be a brave move on our part, I think.

5 minutes ago, BramcoteRam84 said:

He’s already played in the premier league for City. Pep wouldn’t do that if he wasn’t any good. Scored hatfuls of goals in the u23s. 

More likely he’ll have the impact Brewster had at Swansea or Wilson had here - ie. Rip up the league.

Nothing is guaranteed but if he gets a season long loan in championship he’d definitely be worth putting some money on. 

And after a season in the Championship don’t rule out him doing a Mason Mount when returning to his parent club.

We ain’t getting him though 

I am not writing him off. I am just wondering why some people see a player of his type as the messiah.

He is very much unproven and very much in need of development, just like any other player of his age.

The hype behind Mount and Wilson was justified. Prior to joining us, they had played for other clubs (Vitesse and Hull) and given a significant glimpse of their potential.

Delap has made one substitute appearance in the Premier League, played a full 90 minutes in the League Cup, and had a 15 minute cameo in the FA Cup.

I am not entirely sure that equates to top Championship striker in waiting.

Am I missing something?

Delap is very highly rated, I know. He was one of our best Academy prospects, I know that too.

But where is the evidence he would ‘tear up the Championship’ at this point in his career?

He’s still only 18 and the majority of his game time has come in under 23s football, which is not always the best indicator, or we would have done everything to keep Morgan Whittaker.

Why are we so confident he would have such a big impact where our other youngsters wouldn’t?

Black v neck? Blue trim? Massive 32 Red logo?

Derby 5-0 Huddersfield opening day win incoming.

Lawrence as captain?

We’ll be crowned champions in March.

Debts and liabilities of up to £60 million?

The frightening thing is if we were to sell Bielik, Jozwiak, Knight, Sibley, Bird and Buchanan, would it even make a dent?

What a shocking state of affairs.

Just when you think this club and the people in charge couldn't shock you any more, they find a way.

OK, Rooney’s Derby has 37 points from 32 games.

Some will suggest that surely this shows Rooney has done a good job as this would almost certainly be enough to survive if averaged across 46 games.

For those saying Rooney has done a good job and deserves time, ask yourself this: if there were 14 games of the season still to play, would you back us to stay up?

On current form, I wouldn’t. And that is what people are getting at.

People said the same about Cocu. 10th? Surely he’s doing a good job? Surely after such a chaotic season, he deserves more time?

People ignored the warning signs. It was brushed under the carpet that we ended last season really poorly under Cocu. It was brushed under the carpet that we had a miserable pre-season. It was brushed under the carpet that the squad was seriously lacking in key areas. It was brushed under the carpet that we had taken some huge gambles in the transfer market.

And before we knew it, we were 11 games in and any hopes of an exciting season had all but disappeared.

We stick by Rooney, and especially if Mel is still at the helm, and there is a strong chance of history repeating itself.

Rooney has been in sole charge for 32 games. If you split it in half, it is a tale of huge extremes.

First 16 - W8, D4, L4 = 28 points from 48.

Last 16 - W2, D3, L11 = 9 points from 48.

It’s almost a 70% decrease in points garnered. An incredible drop off.

Rooney is unfortunate in the sense that if you reversed the two spells and we were going into the last game after winning 8 in 16, spirits would be high and Rooney would probably be getting hailed by one and all.

But perhaps by the same token if Rooney’s tenure had started with 2 wins in 16, he probably wouldn’t have got this far either.

If we win on Saturday, it will be 3 wins in 17. The kind of form that could perhaps result in a hangover the following season, as we saw with Cocu. We are at risk of repeating the very same cycle.

For me, it is a massive risk giving Rooney more time in the job and we really should be looking at pre season to make a clean break and freshen things up.

I mean you’d replace the coaches, you’d replace the players, you’d splash out millions, but you would leave in charge the man who has been a key player in all of the complete disarray at the club? Why?