Warne Out Out

[Banksy]

2 hours ago, YorkshireRam said:

So the implication could be Warne is going against the aims set out by Clowes for him to achieve?

I do not believe that Warne is deliberately and wantonly defying the owner at all. I posted yesterday that I think that Warne is proving to be a one-tricky pony who knows only one way of playing and with those methods he achieved promotion three times with Rotherham (followed notably by two relegations from the Championship). He has not previously managed a club with a Category One academy where the EPPP programme is adopted and the first team play a style of football in line with that taught in the academy. Derby still adopt EPPP as do all PL2 academy teams. We now are the only PL2 club whose first team does not play a style which reflects EPPP; that causes a problem for academy players stepping up and we are failing those youngsters in who we have invested so much. I think simply that Warne's methods are extremely limited and he knows no other way, which makes him a poor fit for Derby County. It's not his fault, he simply knows no better. The academy coaches are good but Warne is not the right coach to further the development of the academy graduates. Other clubs have appointed younger coaches with long experience of academy coaching as head coaches and they are way ahead of Warne; Kieran McKenna has been at Ipswich less than two years and has turned them around from mid-table in Division One to a side on the brink realistically of promotion to the Premier League. There are many other similar examples of coaches outperforming Warne.

2 hours ago, YorkshireRam said:

'But he was clear that the academy was vital in the rebuild and he has backed that up with the quality of staff brought in to run it at no small cost.'' As fans, we're not privy to these conversations, and I don't tend to take press statements at face value. There was also a misunderstanding with the ''competitive budget' comments after we failed to pay a transfer fee for anyone (just to show why they can sometimes cause confusion).

 

If you doubt that the rebuilding of the academy was part of David Clowes' intentions and he might not have told that to Paul Warne I simply cannot help you and you will have to take that up with the owner. I find him candid and honest about what he has said about his intentions for the club. Are you confusing him with his predecessor ? I hope not. I have not been privy to any of his conversations. I simply trust his public statements backed by the clear support and investment in the academy.

I don't get the misunderstanding about the competitive budget which David Clowes said we had. Is it not competitive? Paul Warne said he had chosen to spend not on transfer fees but on wages which allowed him to bring in more players. I don't find that confusing; it was Paul Warne's choice on he spent the competitive budget.

2 hours ago, YorkshireRam said:

If it was really that critical, wouldn't the logical appointment have been Rosenior who had a track record of not just integrating youth, but integrating OUR youth? This combined with the fact that not actively promoting youth isn't usually a hapless mistake but a series of deliberate actions lead me to believe this isn't actually Warne going against directives set out for him by the board/Clowes. But then again, I'm just guessing like everyone else. 

Yes, with what I have witnessed in the past year, I now think that Liam Rosenior would have been the logical appointment. For all I know, the owner may or may not be thinking the same thing. Hindsight is a benefit available to none of us at he time of making crucial decisions. I don't do guessing so I can't help you there.

I don't know how much academy football you watch. I have been watching it for eight years whenever the first team aren't playing. This is the first time I have been worried that we are not making the best use of the potential resources. I know that other regular academy attendees who post on here and others who follow it on Rams TV, share the same concerns.

Edited November 22, 2023 by Banksy
Added text

[RoyMac5]

 

[Ghost of Clough]

2 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

 

That's a crazy stat - 1 in 4 corners results in a shot on target. Meanwhile, we're averaging 7 corners per shot (on and off target)

[duncanjwitham]

1 hour ago, RoyMac5 said:

 

Random is what you want if you think you’re the weaker team and need something lucky to drop to even things up a bit.  Wanting your players to have the ball at their feet, pass it around, and trusting they’ll create something is what you do if you think you’re the better team. Says it all really.

And that’s a great clip too, it’s refreshing to see a manager clearly thinking about the game, trying to figure how to make the best use of what he has, and be willing to talk about it so well too.

[Bald Eagle's Barmy Army]

9 hours ago, duncanjwitham said:

Not picking you out particularly with this, it's more of a general comment, but the bold bits get to the root of why I'm so opposed to Warne.

The way I see it, we have everything off-field ready for the Premier League - the fanbase size, the stadium, the training ground etc are all good enough.  Obviously we have no divine right to be in any league, but in theory there's no reason why we shouldn't be in the same group of clubs as the likes of Leicester/Burnley/Fulham/Brighton/Norwich etc who have spent at least as much time in the Prem as they have out of it in recent seasons.  I'm not saying we can win it like Leicester or be top 6 like Brighton or anything, but we absolutely have the potential to get there and stay there, but the onus is on us as a club to make it happen.

Obviously, one way that happens is that a new owner comes along and throws a lot of money at the club.  But there's no guarantee this happens, there's no guarantee it works if it does, and we all know what the potential fallout can be if it goes wrong.  It's certainly not an option we should be relying on.  Another way is just genuine luck, alignment of stars type stuff - you get the right manager at the right time, a bunch of signings all work out and you hit the jackpot.  We came close with Burley+Rasiak+Idiakez... and McClaren+Martin+Bryson... but ultimately fell short.  Again, that's not something you can rely on - you need a lot of things to all hit at once, and even then it might not work.  And it gets harder and harder as the championship gets dominated by clubs with parachute payments.

So IMO we should be doing the one thing that we have some degree of control over, and that's doing our level best to get the most we can out of the academy.  But that means fully committing to it.  When academy players are hitting 17/18/19/20 (it will be different for each players), they need to start being introduced to senior football.  If they aren't they won't progress.  If we take the approach that we can't play youth players now, we need to get promoted first, then you're basically writing off the current generation of academy players.  They won't get the first team exposure they need and won't kick on. 

So if we do get promoted what happens?  We can't afford to play academy players, we need to get stabilised in this league first.  And then?  We can't afford to play academy players, we need to kick on for the top 6 now.  And then?  We can't afford to play academy players, we need to get promoted to the prem first.  If your attitude is "we can't afford to play them now", then you won't be able to play them when they're good enough later, because they won't get good enough.

You can't just have an academy sat on the sidelines and hope it produces players now and then.  If you want to be like Southampton and have a steady stream of them, you have to gear the whole club up to make it happen.  You play similar styles of football across all age groups, you gear your transfer policy to not block promising players, you commit to giving youngsters first team chances when they're ready and if they take it you let them run with it.  And from what I can see, we can't do any of that with Warne in charge.  So we're just stuck hoping a youngster pops up, fully formed, once in a blue moon.  And that's one of the big advantages we could have over similar sized clubs that we are just choosing to throw away.

I have no idea if Weston is good enough, I've never seen him play.  But by all accounts he did well when he came on, and scored a good goal.  If you give him say 20 minutes against Barnsley and he scores again, then okay, maybe we've got something here.  If he then starts against Crewe and scores, then we've got a potential first team striker for nothing.  And if he doesn't do any of that then fine, he goes back to the U21s and maybe gets another shot in a month or 2.  But right now, we've just got a guy that scored a goal once and then never played again, which is no use to anyone.

Sorry everyone for the long post, but I genuinely think appointing Warne was a catastrophic mistake for a lot of reasons.  The ridiculous short-termism of "he was brought in to achieve promotion quickly" sums it up - it's like there's no thought as to what happens when we do get promoted.  And when I see fans almost actively celebrating it ("I don't care about academy players, we won 3-0" type stuff) I just find it a bit sad really.  I want the club to be in the premier league, I want the club to play good football, and I want to see academy players getting into the first team and doing well, and I want the club to be actively trying to make all that stuff happen, not just flailing around doing stuff at random and hoping that one day it might work.

(and breathe...)

Great post and exactly my thoughts. 

[brady1993]

11 hours ago, duncanjwitham said:

Not picking you out particularly with this, it's more of a general comment, but the bold bits get to the root of why I'm so opposed to Warne.

The way I see it, we have everything off-field ready for the Premier League - the fanbase size, the stadium, the training ground etc are all good enough.  Obviously we have no divine right to be in any league, but in theory there's no reason why we shouldn't be in the same group of clubs as the likes of Leicester/Burnley/Fulham/Brighton/Norwich etc who have spent at least as much time in the Prem as they have out of it in recent seasons.  I'm not saying we can win it like Leicester or be top 6 like Brighton or anything, but we absolutely have the potential to get there and stay there, but the onus is on us as a club to make it happen.

Obviously, one way that happens is that a new owner comes along and throws a lot of money at the club.  But there's no guarantee this happens, there's no guarantee it works if it does, and we all know what the potential fallout can be if it goes wrong.  It's certainly not an option we should be relying on.  Another way is just genuine luck, alignment of stars type stuff - you get the right manager at the right time, a bunch of signings all work out and you hit the jackpot.  We came close with Burley+Rasiak+Idiakez... and McClaren+Martin+Bryson... but ultimately fell short.  Again, that's not something you can rely on - you need a lot of things to all hit at once, and even then it might not work.  And it gets harder and harder as the championship gets dominated by clubs with parachute payments.

So IMO we should be doing the one thing that we have some degree of control over, and that's doing our level best to get the most we can out of the academy.  But that means fully committing to it.  When academy players are hitting 17/18/19/20 (it will be different for each players), they need to start being introduced to senior football.  If they aren't they won't progress.  If we take the approach that we can't play youth players now, we need to get promoted first, then you're basically writing off the current generation of academy players.  They won't get the first team exposure they need and won't kick on. 

So if we do get promoted what happens?  We can't afford to play academy players, we need to get stabilised in this league first.  And then?  We can't afford to play academy players, we need to kick on for the top 6 now.  And then?  We can't afford to play academy players, we need to get promoted to the prem first.  If your attitude is "we can't afford to play them now", then you won't be able to play them when they're good enough later, because they won't get good enough.

You can't just have an academy sat on the sidelines and hope it produces players now and then.  If you want to be like Southampton and have a steady stream of them, you have to gear the whole club up to make it happen.  You play similar styles of football across all age groups, you gear your transfer policy to not block promising players, you commit to giving youngsters first team chances when they're ready and if they take it you let them run with it.  And from what I can see, we can't do any of that with Warne in charge.  So we're just stuck hoping a youngster pops up, fully formed, once in a blue moon.  And that's one of the big advantages we could have over similar sized clubs that we are just choosing to throw away.

I have no idea if Weston is good enough, I've never seen him play.  But by all accounts he did well when he came on, and scored a good goal.  If you give him say 20 minutes against Barnsley and he scores again, then okay, maybe we've got something here.  If he then starts against Crewe and scores, then we've got a potential first team striker for nothing.  And if he doesn't do any of that then fine, he goes back to the U21s and maybe gets another shot in a month or 2.  But right now, we've just got a guy that scored a goal once and then never played again, which is no use to anyone.

Sorry everyone for the long post, but I genuinely think appointing Warne was a catastrophic mistake for a lot of reasons.  The ridiculous short-termism of "he was brought in to achieve promotion quickly" sums it up - it's like there's no thought as to what happens when we do get promoted.  And when I see fans almost actively celebrating it ("I don't care about academy players, we won 3-0" type stuff) I just find it a bit sad really.  I want the club to be in the premier league, I want the club to play good football, and I want to see academy players getting into the first team and doing well, and I want the club to be actively trying to make all that stuff happen, not just flailing around doing stuff at random and hoping that one day it might work.

(and breathe...)

Couldn't agree more. I've been saying it for a while (alongside you and a few others) the academy is the one major advantage we have as a club that we can draw upon to essentially punch above our weight but we have to be set up for it and have to take some of the teething pains as we put the rights thing in place for it flourish.

The one thing I'll add, the short term "fast promotion" argument would have weight if it looked like that was what was going to happen. Last season we finished and right now we are looking for a finish that's more or less the same (within a few places). In what world does that look a fast promotion? That's my biggest biggest problem with Warne is we are doing neither a fast promotion nor building for the future.

 

[Truckle]

On 18/11/2023 at 09:57, Truckle said:

When this thread started we had 18 points from 12 games, 75 pages later we now have 27 from 16.  We were 11th and we are now 7th, just one goal more in the plus column away from playoffs.  

By my reckoning if we can get to 225  pages we'll be top.

This really is a fantastic effort from all involved.

Since we started this thread, we have taken 9 points from 4 games at 2.25 points per game!  And we’ve added another 8 pages since my post so are now just 218 pages away from top spot.  If we can all focus and keep being really really cross for a bit longer we can do this.

. 

[Wolfie20]

4 minutes ago, Truckle said:

This really is a fantastic effort from all involved.

Since we started this thread, we have taken 9 points from 4 games at 2.25 points per game!  And we’ve added another 8 pages since my post so are now just 218 pages away from top spot.  If we can all focus and keep being really really cross for a bit longer we can do this.

. 

Don't imagine that'll be much of a problem for some posters- it's become 2nd nature for them  😂

[HorsforthRam]

On 22/11/2023 at 20:51, RoyMac5 said:

 

As well as his corner kick comments, I like how he’s instructed his midfield guy to get to the ball asap for a free kick and pass it and into play. Not letting defenders rest and getting the ball into play as much as possible. Drives the tempo of a team imo 

[Mucker1884]

On 22/11/2023 at 11:32, Tamworthram said:

... (I’m joking of course before anyone accuses me of being deluded or drinking too early in the morning).

If you think there is such a time of day that could be described as "Too early for a drink", then quite frankly, you sir, are deluded!  👀

[RadioactiveWaste]

Not a single shot on goal today. not good eough. I know some say will "it's friday, you're being a tool" but to them I say, how much longer must we bare the indignity of being managed by paul warne?!

[Mucker1884]

On 21/11/2023 at 19:23, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

They're really not are they. Not wanting to spend another year in this turgid league, especially as it will be harder to get out of next year with the clubs dropping in, is rather different to demanding premier league titles and European titles. 

Is that because next season it will be 3 teams dropping in from the Championship, where as this season, they only dropped from... erm... oh!  

🤷‍♂️

 

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

5 hours ago, Mucker1884 said:

Is that because next season it will be 3 teams dropping in from the Championship, where as this season, they only dropped from... erm... oh!  

🤷‍♂️

 

Coventry, QPR, Sheff Wed, Huddersfield, Birmingham and a Rotherham who know our manager inside out all looking favourites to contest that drop at the minute. That's a tough selection to navigate as well as a Bolton, Barnsley, Peterborough, free spending Oxford etc of whom two or three will probably be still here.  No bankrupt Readings or minus point Wigans next time round. 

[Mucker1884]

6 hours ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

Coventry, QPR, Sheff Wed, Huddersfield, Birmingham and a Rotherham who know our manager inside out all looking favourites to contest that drop at the minute. That's a tough selection to navigate as well as a Bolton, Barnsley, Peterborough, free spending Oxford etc of whom two or three will probably be still here.  No bankrupt Readings or minus point Wigans next time round. 

 

Yeah.  I hear you, and I accept your thought process, but rightly or wrongly, I just see other L1 clubs.  No better or worse than us, come opening day of the season.

This division has had the likes of Wendies, Ipswich, Sunderland et all over recent seasons, and most of them take more than a season or two to threaten a promotion place.
The 3 teams that come down next will come down for a reason.  Most likely for football reasons, and they'll be down here "on merit"!  

Every team, every season, are a threat.

🐏

[Gaspode]

I’ve been very much on the fence with regards to Warne. I hate the chopping and changing and really wanted him to succeed. I keep hoping that we’re turning a corner but yesterday was yet another awful performance only rescued by NML - without him we’d have been praying for a 0-0 bore draw…. And then to hear the obnoxious manager being interviewed on RD and patronising Dom about the formation “we changed the formation in the second half and if you didn’t notice that, you don’t get football” was disgraceful. We may make the playoffs, we’re might even scrape automatics if we can put a solid run together, but I’m finished with the bloke and his stupid hats - sooner he’s gone the better…..

Edited November 26, 2023 by Gaspode

[Gerry Daly]

We are getting results now. Maybe performances will improve but I don’t think I have ever felt so little confidence in or interest in a manager or group of players as I do now. I can’t wait to see the back of Collins in particular, I hate him with a passion. But I can’t stand the sight of Smith, Hourihane, Barkhuizen, Washington, Waghorn, Forsyth, Mendez Laing and most of all Sonny bloody Bradley. I want to see the lot of them cleared out in the summer and to be honest I won’t cry a river to see Cashin, Bird and Sibley go as well. Bored to tears with the lot of them. A clean start is what we need, just hope it’s with a new manager as well

[richinspain]

8 minutes ago, Gerry Daly said:

We are getting results now. Maybe performances will improve but I don’t think I have ever felt so little confidence in or interest in a manager or group of players as I do now. I can’t wait to see the back of Collins in particular, I hate him with a passion. But I can’t stand the sight of Smith, Hourihane, Barkhuizen, Washington, Waghorn, Forsyth, Mendez Laing and most of all Sonny bloody Bradley. I want to see the lot of them cleared out in the summer and to be honest I won’t cry a river to see Cashin, Bird and Sibley go as well. Bored to tears with the lot of them. A clean start is what we need, just hope it’s with a new manager as well

I love Sunday mornings after a win me

[winktheram]

57 minutes ago, Gaspode said:

I’ve been very much on the fence with regards to Warne. I hate the chopping and changing and really wanted him to succeed. I keep hoping that we’re turning a corner but yesterday was yet another awful performance only rescued by NML - without him we’d have been praying for a 0-0 bore draw…. And then to hear the obnoxious manager being interviewed on RD and patronising Dom about the formation “we changed the formation in the second half and if you didn’t notice that, you don’t get football” was disgraceful. We may make the playoffs, we’re might even scrape automatics if we can put a solid run together, but I’m finished with the bloke and his stupid hats - sooner he’s gone the better…..

Right snidy comments. Whilst as part of the interview with Dom, it's always aimed at the fans, like we don't know what were talking about. Also wittering on about appreciating the fans that didn't leave when BR equalised, which was a sarky comment about those that did. I must be one of those that doesn't know football as he implied he went 3/5 at the back at half time where it was when he brought the Colossus Sonny Bradley on after our goal for me. At a point where we weren't in any trouble and BR hadn't done anything 2nd half. Almost a change to invite them on. But I might have missed the tactical change at half time as I was half cut but I'm sure Warne just plays games with these interviews.

Edited November 26, 2023 by winktheram

[Tyler Durden]

1 hour ago, Gerry Daly said:

We are getting results now. Maybe performances will improve but I don’t think I have ever felt so little confidence in or interest in a manager or group of players as I do now. I can’t wait to see the back of Collins in particular, I hate him with a passion. But I can’t stand the sight of Smith, Hourihane, Barkhuizen, Washington, Waghorn, Forsyth, Mendez Laing and most of all Sonny bloody Bradley. I want to see the lot of them cleared out in the summer and to be honest I won’t cry a river to see Cashin, Bird and Sibley go as well. Bored to tears with the lot of them. A clean start is what we need, just hope it’s with a new manager as well

Didn't we have a clean start when we went into administration.

Wasn't that enough for you 

[Jimbo Ram]

I remember the season we went up under Quasi around about this time of the year. I went to an away game at Luton, a game we won 2-0 without having to get out of second gear. As we were leaving the ground I remember saying to my brother ‘we are going up’ . I think we were outside the play offs at the time. I just don’t have the same confidence that we will go up this year. We are not controlling games like we need to and tactically, I don’t think Warney is quite good enough. I hope I am wrong.