Derby v Cheltenham (A) Match Thread

[RodleyRam]

Should have won.

Didn't lose.

Unbeaten in 6.

3 points off playoffs with a game in hand.

Uninspiring but improving performances.

Perspective. I think we'll be reet.

[Mr. P]

6 minutes ago, RodleyRam said:

Should have won.

Didn't lose.

Unbeaten in 6.

3 points off playoffs with a game in hand.

Uninspiring but improving performances.

Perspective. I think we'll be reet.

Plus I thought we’d draw at Blackpool & win at Cheltenham, so 4 pts from 6 was what I expected. 

[On the Ram Page]

10 hours ago, Leeds Ram said:

I could technically peer review it 😉 

Take great care with Plagiarism - I.e. the fraudulent representation of another person’s language, thoughts, ideas, or expressions as one’s own original work!

[cj9a408]

I was at the game stood in the Cheltenham terraces (i live locally, that's my excuse!)

 

First half was nothing short of woeful.  Cheltenham fans around saying how poor we were.

Couldn't put two passes together and far too relaxed.  I was almost on the pitch i was that close and there was zero noise being made by the players to each other compared to the Cheltenham players, apart from to moan at each other.

Second half much better but still highlighting the obvious lack of a proper goal scorer.  Bird made a difference!

Still, its one game we certainly cant sing "Cheltenham's a s*** hole, i want to go home" at!

Loved their banter at scoring a goal - I sang along to that one!

[Jourdan]

7 hours ago, nottingram said:

The key is to find these forwards before they become £1m players. It’s not easy obviously but that is what people are paid good money to do. I don’t think the question is how much would Colby Bishop, Devante Cole or Dion Charles cost now, but rather how much did Bishop and Charles cost Accrington, and Cole cost Barnsley.

It’s not an exact science, I’m sure Accrington have had some duds alongside those two but if they can find these hidden gems, so can we. Incidentally Bishop was at Derby til he was 15 and released. Probably the best all round 9 at this level now. 

If the manager or recruitment team are simply looking at last seasons top scorer list to inform their targets then we will never ever get good value for money again. We have to be smarter.

I don’t disagree, but you also have to weigh up time and expectation.

Warne has been here for 12 months. Mark Thomas has been here for less than 6 months. It will take time for them to get our recruitment department in order.

We are the biggest club in the division and have the expectations to match and perhaps also a difficult bargaining position.

If we are going to see ‘smarter’ signings, surely this will also take time and perhaps too require an adjustment in expectations.

If we are going to unearth players, there has to be an appreciation of what that entails.

Our fans are used to having players who are proven and can hit the ground running. Would the fans have the patience for a different approach, or would they think ‘doing an Accrington’ is settling for life at this level?

[Kathcairns]

20 hours ago, Dava75 said:

OK so not judged on results - as you originally implied? More important to you is the football? So you’d be happy to have lost the last 6 if we’d played good football?!  🤷🏼‍♂️

Very unlikely you would lose 6 if playing good football.

[Guest]

Always find the topic of players development an interesting one. Bishop could probably be referred to as a late bloomer which gets attached to Ian Wright with the obvious differences in levels they were/are playing at.

We released him 10 years ago ish so later days of Cloughie era when money was in short supply so there must have been something not right then, what that was I don't think has been said? But the difference between a great goalscorer in L1 even and a player that disappears into obscurity or out of the pro game completely must be so minute whether that be a freak injury, a life event, bad lifestyle choices or even just falling out of love with how the game is. On paper now, it looks like the wrong decision to release him but that's based purely on the fact he's precisely what we need. A Jack Marriott up front in 2019 and we might be going Colby who? 

[Ghost of Clough]

1 hour ago, Sheepinthedales said:

Always find the topic of players development an interesting one. Bishop could probably be referred to as a late bloomer which gets attached to Ian Wright with the obvious differences in levels they were/are playing at.

We released him 10 years ago ish so later days of Cloughie era when money was in short supply so there must have been something not right then, what that was I don't think has been said? But the difference between a great goalscorer in L1 even and a player that disappears into obscurity or out of the pro game completely must be so minute whether that be a freak injury, a life event, bad lifestyle choices or even just falling out of love with how the game is. On paper now, it looks like the wrong decision to release him but that's based purely on the fact he's precisely what we need. A Jack Marriott up front in 2019 and we might be going Colby who? 

Bishop, if we had kept him would have been in the same youth sides as Zanzala, Vernam and Jacobsen, whilst also being the year below Bennett, with Babos and Kellan Gordon (a year younger and often used as forwards).

The academy staff must have felt they were more likely to get a successful forward from one of the others in our system. Two of those forwards I've listed have been regulars in Championship sides, whislt Bishop is yet to play above L1 level.

He was even released by Notts County at 19 and took 3 years for him to return to the EFL. It would have been a big gamble for us to put some faith in someone at that age to finally show he was capable of playing for our first team. He would have followed a similar path as Vernam, Gordon, etc, leaving for a nominal fee with a sell-on.

[Dava75]

5 hours ago, Kathcairns said:

Very unlikely you would lose 6 if playing good football.

I’m not sure I said we would …..but just to pedantic (hope you appreciate this Jimbo 😉) ….. you could certainly go winless in 6.
 

Go back to March 2014/15 season under Stevie Mac - arguably one of the best 18 months of entertainment we’ve had at Derby (since TBE at least) but no wins in 6. And only 2 out of 12 at the most important stage of the season. Perhaps that team lacked character and steel 🤷🏻‍♂️
 

We were entertained but ultimately it was not good enough to deliver the main objective - promotion!!  
 

We’re unbeaten in 6 - which has to be good for confidence - and yes I too would have also liked to have seen more goals and more wins, However, there are mitigating circumstances, we are only just able to select from a full squad and even then are nursing some (Bird, Wilson, Barks) back to full fitness. One win puts us in the play off spots and on course for the main objective for the season - promotion.

[sage]

1 hour ago, Dava75 said:

I’m not sure I said we would …..but just to pedantic (hope you appreciate this Jimbo 😉) ….. you could certainly go winless in 6.
 

Go back to March 2014/15 season under Stevie Mac - arguably one of the best 18 months of entertainment we’ve had at Derby (since TBE at least) but no wins in 6. And only 2 out of 12 at the most important stage of the season. Perhaps that team lacked character and steel 🤷🏻‍♂️
 

We had no fit CFs or DCMs. It was after we had peaked 

 

[Dava75]

5 hours ago, sage said:

 

We had Darren Bent fit the whole time and actually Chris Martin, GT and Omar Mascerell played in that 12 game run. But I get your point that there were injuries to key players. 

Was that down to poor recruitment ie lack of cover for key roles, poor training or was it poor management/coaching in not adapting the style to the players available?  
All criticisms that have been levelled at Warne by some on here 🤷🏻‍♂️ 

 

[NottsRam77]

On 08/10/2023 at 10:20, derbydaz22 said:

So we just have to accept this football and just pretend everything is ok?

No not at all… but im still pretty convinced in a an ideal world there is much warne would change with regards to the personnel…

i hardly think james collins is warnes or anybodys go to centre forward of choice 

[RoyMac5]

3 hours ago, NottsRam77 said:

No not at all… but im still pretty convinced in a an ideal world there is much warne would change with regards to the personnel…

i hardly think james collins is warnes or anybodys go to centre forward of choice 

He tried to sign him for Rotherham. 

The football is ordinary at best as are the results - there has been no hint that Warne knows how to change things up.

When Warne bought Birdy 🐦 on, he changed the way we attacked and also, not mentioned by m/any changed the pace of the game. 

What did Warne then do...

Edited October 10, 2023 by RoyMac5

[kevinhectoring]

On 07/10/2023 at 20:10, G STAR RAM said:

Does the average League One manager get promoted from the division 3 times?

If not, Id suggest that he is a better than average League One manager.

Yes, many were expecting some magic dust when he arrived - for the reason you allude to. But after witnessing what, 60 games, it’s just not there. 
 

it might just be that he was above average with Rotherham because he fitted the club. He’s not a good fit with us.
 

Not a great position for dc to be in tbh (and it’s time to stop deflecting the causes to Morris, not least because that way they don’t get addressed) 

 

 

[Ghost of Clough]

12 hours ago, Dava75 said:

I’m not sure I said we would …..but just to pedantic (hope you appreciate this Jimbo 😉) ….. you could certainly go winless in 6.
 

Go back to March 2014/15 season under Stevie Mac - arguably one of the best 18 months of entertainment we’ve had at Derby (since TBE at least) but no wins in 6. And only 2 out of 12 at the most important stage of the season. Perhaps that team lacked character and steel 🤷🏻‍♂️
 

We were entertained but ultimately it was not good enough to deliver the main objective - promotion!!  
 

We’re unbeaten in 6 - which has to be good for confidence - and yes I too would have also liked to have seen more goals and more wins, However, there are mitigating circumstances, we are only just able to select from a full squad and even then are nursing some (Bird, Wilson, Barks) back to full fitness. One win puts us in the play off spots and on course for the main objective for the season - promotion.

The 14/15 season was before MM decided to through money at promotion. He saw injuries to the squad stop us earning promotion in 14/15, so tried to prevent that happening again.

Let's look at why we did so bad at the end of that season...

Defence
Buxton missed the final 11 games of the season leaving just Shotton (also covering RB) and Albentosa as options. Forsyth had to cover CB for the one game too.
Whitbread was already out injured since October, was rushed back into the side in April due to our injury crisis, played only 1 full games before picking up another injury 27 minutes into his 2nd start
Christie was out for the final 6 games. Due to Shotton also being injured at the time, Keogh filled in at RB for 2 games and Albentosa 1 until Shotton was rushed back in to the side.

Midfield
Thorne was injured in pre-season, and was only fit enough to play 29 minutes in the first team during this 12 game spell before returning to the treatment table.
Mascerall, his replacement, picked up an injury for the final 9 games.
Eustace, cover for both, picked up a career ending injury in the middle of January
Despite Hanson playing there for a couple of games, we struggled to find the right balance, even playing Dawkins and Warnock in midfield.

Forward
Martin was only fit enough to start 1 of the final 16 games, playing a total of 220 minutes during that spell.
Bent, our backup for Martin, was injured for the first 4 games of your 12 game run and for the penultimate game of the season.

[Dava75]

1 hour ago, Ghost of Clough said:

The 14/15 season was before MM decided to through money at promotion. He saw injuries to the squad stop us earning promotion in 14/15, so tried to prevent that happening again.

Let's look at why we did so bad at the end of that season...

Defence
Buxton missed the final 11 games of the season leaving just Shotton (also covering RB) and Albentosa as options. Forsyth had to cover CB for the one game too.
Whitbread was already out injured since October, was rushed back into the side in April due to our injury crisis, played only 1 full games before picking up another injury 27 minutes into his 2nd start
Christie was out for the final 6 games. Due to Shotton also being injured at the time, Keogh filled in at RB for 2 games and Albentosa 1 until Shotton was rushed back in to the side.

Midfield
Thorne was injured in pre-season, and was only fit enough to play 29 minutes in the first team during this 12 game spell before returning to the treatment table.
Mascerall, his replacement, picked up an injury for the final 9 games.
Eustace, cover for both, picked up a career ending injury in the middle of January
Despite Hanson playing there for a couple of games, we struggled to find the right balance, even playing Dawkins and Warnock in midfield.

Forward
Martin was only fit enough to start 1 of the final 16 games, playing a total of 220 minutes during that spell.
Bent, our backup for Martin, was injured for the first 4 games of your 12 game run and for the penultimate game of the season.

Thanks for clarifying the detail……doesn’t depart from the fact that you can have a brand of football that is good - and still lose games - and end up failing in your objective to win games and secure promotion - even if the matches were entertaining - which was the post I was replying to.

 

Just having a look at your analysis further, there seems some similarities between then and now: 

1. Recruitment: 14/15 was the season before MM throws money at it - suggests SMac had his hands tied when it came to recruiting a well balanced squad. Roll on 23/24… I think we know this is true for PW.

2. 3x Injuries in one position in the team:  13/14 …. (CDM - Eustace, Mascarell, Thorne). ……. See 23/24 RB/RWB issues…Ward / Rooney /Wilson all injured for a large proportion of our first 11 games.

3. Attacking options: OK so not at Centre Forward like the Martin and Bent issue specifically …….but Bird (if you play him in the more advanced role), Embleton, Sibley, Barkhuizen, John Jules (brought in to play behind the 9) all injured/unavailable consistently.

So an inability to put out a consistently balanced team for 11 (12) games.

Was SMac just damn unlucky because he had his hands tied on recruitment and was unlucky with injuries?  Or should he have signed players regardless of budget constraints, had the foresight to recruit 4 players for every position, trained the players differently so they didnt get injured and maybe have changed his style of play to suit the players at his disposal? Surely we had enough in our squad in the last 3 games of the season to get the extra point we needed to secure play offs given we were playing away at Huddersfield (16th), Millwall (Relegated) and at home Reading (bottom and relegated)?

I only make these points as it seems they are overlooked by some posters right now who don’t like the brand of football played by Warne and believe we have a right to be in the Top 2. 

We’re 11 games in - and 35 to go and we’re about to hit our stride. My own view is that with the current coaching team we will be still in the promotion hunt after 45 games…..just like 14/15… here’s hoping that’s where the 14/15 comparator ends.

And yes it’s just my opinion…🐏

[trappatoni]

One thing, if we don't hit our stride there can't be any excuses.  Warne has had a year. We've played 11 league games plus what, 3-4 cup games?   The injury crisis has resided a bit and he's already said the bench is strong.  

This run up to Christmas we do need to push into the top 6 and at least peg the gap to the top 2-3.  If we are mid table  by then the discussion is going to be do we make a change now and try and rescue a play off place - a play off final must go some way to paying off Warne's contract -  or wait until Summer to see if things improve.

 

 

[Ghost of Clough]

59 minutes ago, Dava75 said:

Thanks for clarifying the detail……doesn’t depart from the fact that you can have a brand of football that is good - and still lose games - and end up failing in your objective to win games and secure promotion - even if the matches were entertaining - which was the post I was replying to.

 

Just having a look at your analysis further, there seems some similarities between then and now: 

1. Recruitment: 14/15 was the season before MM throws money at it - suggests SMac had his hands tied when it came to recruiting a well balanced squad. Roll on 23/24… I think we know this is true for PW.

2. 3x Injuries in one position in the team:  13/14 …. (CDM - Eustace, Mascarell, Thorne). ……. See 23/24 RB/RWB issues…Ward / Rooney /Wilson all injured for a large proportion of our first 11 games.

3. Attacking options: OK so not at Centre Forward like the Martin and Bent issue specifically …….but Bird (if you play him in the more advanced role), Embleton, Sibley, Barkhuizen, John Jules (brought in to play behind the 9) all injured/unavailable consistently.

So an inability to put out a consistently balanced team for 11 (12) games.

Was SMac just damn unlucky because he had his hands tied on recruitment and was unlucky with injuries?  Or should he have signed players regardless of budget constraints, had the foresight to recruit 4 players for every position, trained the players differently so they didnt get injured and maybe have changed his style of play to suit the players at his disposal? Surely we had enough in our squad in the last 3 games of the season to get the extra point we needed to secure play offs given we were playing away at Huddersfield (16th), Millwall (Relegated) and at home Reading (bottom and relegated)?

I only make these points as it seems they are overlooked by some posters right now who don’t like the brand of football played by Warne and believe we have a right to be in the Top 2. 

We’re 11 games in - and 35 to go and we’re about to hit our stride. My own view is that with the current coaching team we will be still in the promotion hunt after 45 games…..just like 14/15… here’s hoping that’s where the 14/15 comparator ends.

And yes it’s just my opinion…🐏

1. No, we had a pretty well balanced squad but used the summer to add cover in all positions which matched the style of play of existing players. We had just spend a reasonable amount on Thorne, and put a decent amount of money towards wages for loan players in the January window.

2. It took injuries to several positions all at once in 14/15. Let's not forget that Smith was a regular at RB last season, but Warne never used him there. It was also only 1 game between Rooney being injured, and Nyambe coming in

3. After Bird's injury, we still has Collins, Waghorn, Washington, Waghorn and Sibley in the matchday squad vs Fleetwood (for a 352). Sibley then dropped out of the squad with TJJ in, and Barkhuizen returning the game after that.

Mac was unlucky with injuries in most cases. We knew Thorne's injury record prior to him joining us, but all other players who picked up injuries have had a good injury record up until that point - notably Buxton and Martin who had been ever present up to that point under Mac.
Warne has signed a number of players who have had injury issues in the last season or two - TJJ, Washington, Bradley, Elder, etc...

[Dava75]

45 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

1. No, we had a pretty well balanced squad but used the summer to add cover in all positions which matched the style of play of existing players. We had just spend a reasonable amount on Thorne, and put a decent amount of money towards wages for loan players in the January window.

2. It took injuries to several positions all at once in 14/15. Let's not forget that Smith was a regular at RB last season, but Warne never used him there. It was also only 1 game between Rooney being injured, and Nyambe coming in

3. After Bird's injury, we still has Collins, Waghorn, Washington, Waghorn and Sibley in the matchday squad vs Fleetwood (for a 352). Sibley then dropped out of the squad with TJJ in, and Barkhuizen returning the game after that.

Mac was unlucky with injuries in most cases. We knew Thorne's injury record prior to him joining us, but all other players who picked up injuries have had a good injury record up until that point - notably Buxton and Martin who had been ever present up to that point under Mac.
Warne has signed a number of players who have had injury issues in the last season or two - TJJ, Washington, Bradley, Elder, etc...

 

1. Ok so Mac had it better than Warne with recruitment - and a better budget to spend on a squad.

2. Injuries all at once, I think your point is weak here tbh - they still had Hanson available to play in his preferred position (and whilst in experienced - I’d say that’s like putting Rooney in at RB). Warne never used Smith there because we didnt have the depth in midfield due to other injuries (eg Bird) meaning Smith needed to stay in midfield. 

3. Washington and Sibley coming back from injuries and without a pre-season. 

So Mac was unlucky? Ok.

And Warne’s is all self inflicted 🤷🏼‍♂️

Anyway’s of to Meadow Lane now - hopefully we can agree on one point - it would be nice to see a Rams win?!

COYR 🐏

[May Contain Nuts]

2 hours ago, Dava75 said:

Thanks for clarifying the detail……doesn’t depart from the fact that you can have a brand of football that is good - and still lose games - and end up failing in your objective to win games and secure promotion - even if the matches were entertaining - which was the post I was replying to.

Just having a look at your analysis further, there seems some similarities between then and now: 

1. Recruitment: 14/15 was the season before MM throws money at it - suggests SMac had his hands tied when it came to recruiting a well balanced squad. Roll on 23/24… I think we know this is true for PW.

2. 3x Injuries in one position in the team:  13/14 …. (CDM - Eustace, Mascarell, Thorne). ……. See 23/24 RB/RWB issues…Ward / Rooney /Wilson all injured for a large proportion of our first 11 games.

3. Attacking options: OK so not at Centre Forward like the Martin and Bent issue specifically …….but Bird (if you play him in the more advanced role), Embleton, Sibley, Barkhuizen, John Jules (brought in to play behind the 9) all injured/unavailable consistently.

So an inability to put out a consistently balanced team for 11 (12) games.

Was SMac just damn unlucky because he had his hands tied on recruitment and was unlucky with injuries?  Or should he have signed players regardless of budget constraints, had the foresight to recruit 4 players for every position, trained the players differently so they didnt get injured and maybe have changed his style of play to suit the players at his disposal? Surely we had enough in our squad in the last 3 games of the season to get the extra point we needed to secure play offs given we were playing away at Huddersfield (16th), Millwall (Relegated) and at home Reading (bottom and relegated)?

I only make these points as it seems they are overlooked by some posters right now who don’t like the brand of football played by Warne and believe we have a right to be in the Top 2. 

We’re 11 games in - and 35 to go and we’re about to hit our stride. My own view is that with the current coaching team we will be still in the promotion hunt after 45 games…..just like 14/15… here’s hoping that’s where the 14/15 comparator ends.

And yes it’s just my opinion…🐏

 

There's a big gap between throwing money at it and tying your manager's hands. Having at various points Ibe, Lingard & Ince on loan, Bamford the season before, spending £3m on Thorne, bringing in Christie etc isn't having your hands tied. The assertion that Warne has had his hands tied is also misguided when you consider he's been allowed to bring in 10-12 players with many at the top end of the budget for the league, regardless of them not requiring transfer fees. It's hardly an insignificant number of additions.

McClaren didn't need to do much to create a well balanced squad because he took what Nigel Clough had left him with (a good team) and came up with a way of playing that got the best out of those players whilst making sensible additions to complement them and to create a very good team, whereas Warne's plan was initially to force the inherited players into his system whether they were suited to it or not.

(McClaren's inherited squad was admittedly already more suited to his style,  but that's why he was such a good appointment & Warne less so)

McClaren tweaked the system slightly in 2014/15 but essentially built on a winning formula . He didn't try to reset anything, he recognised what worked, what didn't and recruited to suit.  In Warne case, he again got stuck on his vision for 3 at the back and set about recruiting for that, seemingly without recognising that one of the biggest reasons for our change in form under him the previous season was dropping that system - this contributes to making it more difficult to find our rhythm this season.

While they've both had issues with injuries, I really don't think you can compare us having a slow start this season to the collapse in 2014/15. After 34 games under McClaren we were top of the table by 2 points and that was with Martin missing for a few games already, but no matter who you are and what good form you're in, losing much of the spine of your team will mess up your form.

Warne has been lost / been unable to access certain players, but there's no evidence yet  that even with those players being available we'd have been significantly better off, or that his desired system really suits either his inherited players or even a number of his additions.

  

20 minutes ago, Dava75 said:

2. Injuries all at once, I think your point is weak here tbh - they still had Hanson available to play in his preferred position (and whilst in experienced - I’d say that’s like putting Rooney in at RB)

Do you not think there's a rather large difference between the balance of your midfield being ruined (with the backup player being an academy player who never was and ever would be good enough to play Championship football) at a time when you're seriously  chasing automatic promotion to the Premier League, and a player/players in a more peripheral position (RB) getting injured during a League One campaign?

Edited October 10, 2023 by Kokosnuss