Match Thread: vs Bolton (A)

[Grumpy Git]

Forum swear filter needs suspending so we can comment properly on decisions like this. 🤬

[Carnero]

It's bloody infuriating, I feel more aggravated now than if they'd just rejected the appeal 😤

[Ram-Alf]

1 hour ago, Millenniumram said:

I’m sure we got an apology for the crap decision. But yet again it doesn’t help us with the dropped points that resulted from it….

The incompetence of officiating at this level is genuinely scary. If some of these guys can become qualified refs then I’m pretty sure most of us on this forum could do!

It's a fairly straight forward process to become a Referee, Take an exam and hope you pass...when I passed some 30 years ago we had to get 75% of the questions right, If not and you were pretty close, You'll be given a few more questions to hopefully pass.

You start at grassroots level and work through the Pyramid which can take a good few years, If you constantly get good marks there's a chance you will be fast tracked to a higher division.

I now watch Belper Town in the NPL East, And believe me the standard of Refereeing is poor, Knowing the laws of the game is the easy part, Interpreting them or succumbing under pressure is imo appeasement, The linesmen are constantly abused either by the players or the fans, The person in the middle will be challenged at every opportunity by both teams officials off the pitch.

I'm not sure what wages they get, And in all honesty they must be skint to do a job like that for very scant reward...beggars belief on why they do it...probs in the hope of getting into the Pro leagues.

This is a quote from the Belper manager after Saturdays game

Regarding the sending off (Burrows), sometimes you wonder why you bother when you get refs like that. He wasn’t even going to give the foul and then when he gave it there were shouts from their dugout and he produces the red card.

I don’t want to go on about the ref because we weren’t at it in the second half. Sometimes you wonder, you wonder why you bother. You’re supposed to be competing. It’s a game of football and it’s Northern Premier League there’s going to be hustle and bustle they’ve both gone up for the ball. 

Sunday Morning Refs get £30+ I was told.

[Ram-Alf]

33 minutes ago, Curtains said:

So the referee is a disgrace as I thought.  Total plank 

Oh come on that's unfair...to the plank 😁 

[WestKentRam]

33 minutes ago, DRBee said:

Not conclusive at all to judge by the FA statement

The statement says handball.

What it doesn't say is that the red card was overturned as it wasn't actually a handball on video evidence, or whether it was overturned because the handball didn't deny a goal scoring opportunity.

[Keepyuppy]

5 minutes ago, WestKentRam said:

The statement says handball.

What it doesn't say is that the red card was overturned as it wasn't actually a handball on video evidence, or whether it was overturned because the handball didn't deny a goal scoring opportunity.

If it wasn’t hand ball - it wasn’t hand ball, it’s a very simple outcome - no red card.
mid it was handball, it’s irrelevant whether a goal scoring opportunity or not, because if it’s handball be the keeper outside the box it’s an instant red card regardless of anything afterwards. If the reason for the red card was for a foul denying a clear goal scoring opportunity it could constitute a red card, but that doesn’t apply as there was a covering defender in front of the gold between keeper and goal (Bradley). 
Yes the ref could have given a Yellow Card if he deduced it was a foul for the tackle, but he didn’t do that - he gave the red for hand ball and said that was the reason. 
it’s just kids poor refereeing which altered the course of the match and the referee and linesman should be demoted to park football for a month !!  

[May Contain Nuts]

1 hour ago, WestKentRam said:

Interesting they have left it ambiguous.

So was it a handball or not? If not, then the ref and assistant obviously guessed or it was an optical illusion that the ball hit his hand that only video could clarify.

Or did the commission still think it was a handball, but not a goal scoring opportunity?

This sort of thing does cost teams promotion, as every season automatic or play off places are won or lost on margins of less than three points.

The game has gone on my Spreadsheet of Injustice to see how it 'evens itself out over the course of the season', that for us, strangely, never seems to be the case 🤬

Does your spreadsheet of injustice only cover Derby games, or those of other teams in the league too?

I think you can only really say it costs teams promotion if you're talking about a one off, winner takes all situation.

Example. Last season when we finished a point behind Peterborough, you could claim that the ref cost us the point we needed to finish above them and reach the playoffs in that final league match against Sheff Weds.

Without knowing what the injustice balance was for Peterborough though, that claim can't be substantiated. The points denied to us could well be cancelled out by them claiming a point of their own lost lost to poor refereeing, in which case the refs actions toward us against Sheff Weds are irrelevant.

 

[Steve Buckley’s Dog]

1 hour ago, Kokosnuss said:

Does your spreadsheet of injustice only cover Derby games, or those of other teams in the league too?

I think you can only really say it costs teams promotion if you're talking about a one off, winner takes all situation.

Example. Last season when we finished a point behind Peterborough, you could claim that the ref cost us the point we needed to finish above them and reach the playoffs in that final league match against Sheff Weds.

Without knowing what the injustice balance was for Peterborough though, that claim can't be substantiated. The points denied to us could well be cancelled out by them claiming a point of their own lost lost to poor refereeing, in which case the refs actions toward us against Sheff Weds are irrelevant.

 

Recently, I feel that the spreadsheet of injustice, if applied correctly, would indicate that by now we should be in the champions league. Obviously we are all biased but the last couple of seasons have seen us very harshly treated with major decisions. Now, if only there were a chant for such a thing… 

[WestKentRam]

4 hours ago, Keepyuppy said:

it was handball, it’s irrelevant whether a goal scoring opportunity or not, because if it’s handball be the keeper outside the box it’s an instant red card regardless of anything afterwards.

I don't think that's right, it's not an instant red card if a goalkeeper handles the ball outside of the box, but is if it is denying a goalscoring opportunity.

The laws of the game state 'The goalkeeper has the same restrictions on handling the ball as any other player outside the penalty area.'

This makes sense as otherwise if a goalkeeper went up for an attacking corner in the last seconds of the game to try and score a crucial late goal, but handled the ball, then it wouldn't be a red card for them but not if an attacker did it instead.

[WestKentRam]

3 hours ago, Kokosnuss said:

Does your spreadsheet of injustice only cover Derby games, or those of other teams in the league too?

I think you can only really say it costs teams promotion if you're talking about a one off, winner takes all situation.

Example. Last season when we finished a point behind Peterborough, you could claim that the ref cost us the point we needed to finish above them and reach the playoffs in that final league match against Sheff Weds.

Without knowing what the injustice balance was for Peterborough though, that claim can't be substantiated. The points denied to us could well be cancelled out by them claiming a point of their own lost lost to poor refereeing, in which case the refs actions toward us against Sheff Weds are irrelevant.

 

Hmmm... interesting...

I'm not quite sad enough to analyse every game in the league in this way, but I agree it would give a more accurate picture of the overall standings if such contentious decisions could be included for all clubs.

The reason for doing it, apart from giving me something to rant about, is that the maxim that it all evens itself out by the end of the season appears to be nonsense if you support Derby and it does my head in when this is trotted out.

The last time I did it for a full season was 20/21 when we were 8-9 points worse off due to decisions such as we had against Bolton. After that, it just became a bit depressing, but after last season when the same feeling occurred, I thought I'd do it for a complete season once again now.

It's just a bit of fun as I was intrigued by Brentford having their Table of Justice, that I recall was one of the reasons Thomas Frank wasn't sacked after his initial terrible run when he started managing them, as their stats indicated they should be higher up the table than they actually were.

[kevinhectoring]

On 03/09/2023 at 17:46, EnigmaRam said:

He just got it all wrong and is totally inept at officiating a football match. Anyone else in any walk of life gets so much wrong in their job they’d be sacked.

except that half of our players get much more wrong week in week out

[kevinhectoring]

1 hour ago, WestKentRam said:

the maxim that it all evens itself out by the end of the season appears to be nonsense if you support Derby and it does my head in when this is trotted out.

have you ever noticed that when the ref gives us a break you don't post about it  ? 

[WestKentRam]

8 hours ago, kevinhectoring said:

have you ever noticed that when the ref gives us a break you don't post about it  ? 

No, never noticed this. You'll have to give me time as I've only been supporting Derby since the glory days of the 1970s, but I'm sure we'll get a decision going our way sooner or later.

In my 20/21 spreadsheet I had recorded that we gained 2 points on 16/2/21 as the ref incorrectly ruled out a goal for Wycombe for offside when it wasn't. We still were down 8-9 points by the end of the season though with other decisions that went against us.

We've had two red cards overturned on appeal in the last year. Wildsmith this week, and Cashin in Nov 22. My memory for games is horrendous, but I can't recall other clubs having had successful red card appeals in games involving us recently. Palace had an unsuccessful appeal for a red given to Milivojevic when they lost against us in the FA Cup in Jan 20.

 

[angieram]

 

[ilkleyram]

4 minutes ago, angieram said:

 

From that view the only thing you could say was that the ref thought it might have hit Joe’s left arm. His right is miles away. And his left arm was slightly obscured from his view. The lino however has no such excuse even though he was 20 yards away he was still front on to the incident so he must have had a clear view.  Unless he was looking elsewhere.
If neither of them clearly saw a handball and guessed then they shouldn’t be giving it, handball or not. And clearly it was not.

Big decision to get wrong. Very poor refereeing never mind the three other major decisions he got wrong.

[RoyMac5]

1 hour ago, ilkleyram said:

From that view the only thing you could say was that the ref thought it might have hit Joe’s left arm. His right is miles away. And his left arm was slightly obscured from his view. The lino however has no such excuse even though he was 20 yards away he was still front on to the incident so he must have had a clear view.  Unless he was looking elsewhere.
If neither of them clearly saw a handball and guessed then they shouldn’t be giving it, handball or not. And clearly it was not.

Big decision to get wrong. Very poor refereeing never mind the three other major decisions he got wrong.

👍

But not "It was worse. He's a cheat." 

If you watch the video in slow-mo (drag the dot along the bar)...

...it's not a straight-on view for the ref. 

[Tyler Durden]

2 hours ago, angieram said:

 

Bit strong calling the referee a cheat, incompetent yes, but with a preordained plan to purposely give decisions against us?

[ilkleyram]

1 hour ago, RoyMac5 said:

👍

But not "It was worse. He's a cheat." 

If you watch the video in slow-mo (drag the dot along the bar)...

...it's not a straight-on view for the ref. 

No. I don’t think that referees generally are ‘cheats’.  Incompetent often, yes.  Cheats in the sense they deliberately make decisions against any one team, including ours, no.

I don’t think he had, from this camera angle, a clear view of Joe’s left arm (he did have a clear view of his right arm) so he was right to check with the lino who should have had a very clear view of both of Joe’s arms from the angle that the lino would have been looking. The ref couldn’t see it; the lino clearly didn’t otherwise he would have said no handball so they are both incompetent for coming to the decision that it was handball and a sending off. Both guessed. Wrongly. 

[jimtastic56]

58 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

Bit strong calling the referee a cheat, incompetent yes, but with a preordained plan to purposely give decisions against us?

Don’t forget - we get 3rd rate refs and even the V A R refs in the Prem are getting things wrong . Ours was a mistake but as Wildsmith was out of his box , would he have been better putting his arms behind his back ,instead of spreading them wide .

[Tyler Durden]

5 minutes ago, jimtastic56 said:

Don’t forget - we get 3rd rate refs and even the V A R refs in the Prem are getting things wrong . Ours was a mistake but as Wildsmith was out of his box , would he have been better putting his arms behind his back ,instead of spreading them wide .

Yes agreed. Basically Wildsmith gave the ref the opportunity to make a poor decision.