V Plymouth (a) 7th March 20.00

[duncanjwitham]

5 minutes ago, angieram said:

I wouldn't overcomplicate things. I'd have just brought on an extra midfielder for a winger as soon as I saw what was happening on the pitch. Probably Tommo, we just needed an extra ratter in there to intercept their pretty passes and keep the ball by passing to the next man.  Rooney would have done  too, push Smith back up into midfield. 

I'm not even sure we needed to do that.  The big problem was the gaping hole in front of our back 4 - every time they broke on us, they were running straight at our defence.  Warne seems to want all his midfielders to play like box-to-box midfielders, running forwards to press or support, then running back to defend.  That's just about okay when everyone's fit and understands their role, but when your team is tired or not used to it, it's a recipe for getting caught out when they all run forwards and nobody runs back.  White (or any of the midfielders really) just needed to go and stand in front of the back 4 and stay there.  Then he can spot attacks early and get in place to deal with it, and when we get the ball back, offer a simple pass so we're not hoofing it to nobody all the time.

[angieram]

2 hours ago, i-Ram said:

Unfair on Thompson I would say. I know he hasnt really kicked on this season when given the opportunity, but last season in many backs-to-the-wall matches, against superior opposition, he was industrious, performed well in the tackle, and was tidy with his ball distribution.

When they made their second and third sub, I was shouting at the TV for Warne to bring on someone else in midfield. There was a bit of danger coming from Mamba (?) was it on the wing, but their skilled players were all going through the middle. Thompson (or Springett) should have come on for Barkhuisen, and Knight moved to the right or left for a midfield 4 of Thompson, White, Hourihane and Knight. Indeed there was a good argument to pull Knight back to RB and have a midfield 4 of Thompson, Smith, Hourihane and White.  We didn't need another goal at that time, we needed to stifle momentum. Slow the game down, get a few niggly fouls in. Regroup.

We all havent different opinions though.  COYR!!

Spot on! Hourihane offers little to nothing defensively,  but put twobehind him and get him going forward.

Would I have started like that? No. But we were in front and needed to consolidate. In game management is what sets the good managers apart.

SW have won ten games 1-0 this season. I think they might know a bit about looking after a lead.

[Sparkle]

3 hours ago, Brailsford Ram said:

Plymouth's record this season against the other top six clubs is P9 W6 D2 L1 Pts 20.

If we make the play-offs, I sincerely hope that they have secured one of the automatic places. Anyone but Plymouth for me.

I base my thoughts on the five goals they were given against us - two of which were big deflections one was offside one was a complete muck up from Cashin and one a cheat for a penalty - sure we haven’t played well but we have put out very limited team selection in my opinion as well 

[May Contain Nuts]

36 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said:

Warne seems to want all his midfielders to play like box-to-box midfielders, running forwards to press or support, then running back to defend.  That's just about okay when everyone's fit and understands their role, but when your team is tired or not used to it, it's a recipe for getting caught out when they all run forwards and nobody runs back.

It's not just what he seems to want, it's what he does want - he's been up front about our style leaving us open to counter attacks through the middle from the very start, it isn't something he deems too much of a concern.

Without Bird available and no desire to adapt the tactics the problem will persist.

We've just got to accept it for what it is and see this thing through, supporting the team and the manager as best we can, despite their flaws!

Edited March 8, 2023 by Kokosnuss

[Blondest Goat]

3 hours ago, AndyB said:

It’s about what we do. We can’t control what the opposition does or how bad the ref is. But we do need, as some have said, a certain type of player that we’re currently missing. We have talent and ability but we’re too nice as a team.

For me the missing player needs to be able to do the following:

1. Ref the game or “manage” the ref through the 90 minutes. We see players from other teams do this, we don’t.

2. Gee up the rest of the team when the tide is turning against us. Have a word with a few. Go tight for 10 minutes. Change the mentality. This would have been invaluable in some of our recent games but it didn’t happen.

3. Make a few tackles, bully the opposition a bit, identify the opposition’s key player and bring him down a peg or two.

4. Win the ball and pass it to our better technical players.

I believe with this one addition to the squad we would get enough points to go up next season if we don’t this. However, how easy it will be to get this player under current restrictions I don’t know.

Every team in every league is looking l for that type of player.

[RoyMac5]

47 minutes ago, angieram said:

...

SW have won ten games 1-0 this season. I think they might know a bit about looking after a lead.

They manage with such a teeny inexperienced squad too. 

[RoyMac5]

https://www.sportsmole.co.uk/football/league-one/best-defence.html

 

 

We're doing quite well for saying we nearly had no Club at all. ?

Edited March 8, 2023 by RoyMac5

[MadAmster]

4 hours ago, BramcoteRam84 said:

 

Don’t agree with those blaming Warne

Obviously there was nowt wrong with the starting XI in the 1st half. 1-0 up at HT and might have been more. They changed personnel and how they played 2nd half. We failed to react to that change. Not the first time that's happened. 

[bcnram]

44 minutes ago, MadAmster said:

Obviously there was nowt wrong with the starting XI in the 1st half. 1-0 up at HT and might have been more. They changed personnel and how they played 2nd half. We failed to react to that change. Not the first time that's happened. 

The manager does seem to get outsmarted on a few occasions by some other managers. Certainly the case in the last two games. 

[angieram]

Driving home through snowy Devon and Somerset today. Motorway down to two lanes in the worst bits.

 

[FlyBritishMidland]

6 hours ago, The Last Post said:

I didn't watch the game nor have I seen the highlights...but I have seen PWs after match interview, So just a couple of observations, A huge majority on here saying it's not a penalty, Games are won and lost on gamesmanship(cheating)Alan Shearer once said "if you dangle a leg in the penalty area you're entitled to go over it" I disagree but this is 2023 not the 1960s, Franny Lee was great at winning penalties for us and Man City, It's a common thing and it's in all attackers mind set...White fell for it and by all accounts so did the Ref.

PWs interview...I don't think I've seen him more animated(angry)than in last nights interview, And he's right, It's the little things that turn into big things if you don't work hard and tackle, Close down, Hold the game up this is what happens...you lose, The same against Shrewsbury, Are we too honest, Very naïve or just plain stupid.

Those supporters who went last night must have been wondering what the rest of the season is going to bring, You don't turn from a good side to a bad side in a few weeks, Wycombe, Lincoln, Barnsley, Shrewsbury and now Plymouth shows we have an Achilles heal...13 goals conceded from a defence that was tighter than a Yorkshireman standing at the bar only a month ago.

PW and his staff can work wonders on the training ground, But it's the players who kick, Run, Head, Tackle, Time waste and harangue the Ref, For me...we're too nice, Do to them as they would do to you, This division is unforgiving, Angie said in another thread "I like to see good football" we all do, But you can be horrible and play good football, Intimidate the opposition, But to do that you need to have that kind of player...we don't I'm afraid.

 

 

Spot on.  Call it dark arts, game management or whatever it’s what we need to do.  We need to disrupt the play when the opposition are on top.  Take our time at throw ins and goal kicks, needless fouls on the half way line, etc.  Basically, take any opportunity to disrupt the rhythm and it’s even more important away from home.  It might be unpopular but we need a Robbie Savage type player.  And one or two in their mid-20’s.

[DavesaRam]

I was fuming at the end of the match last night. I went to bed straight away because I had to get up at 4am for work, but took ages to go to sleep! But I felt it better to give my comments on the match after I had calmed down, so here I am - just a 10 hour shift today, so a relative part-timer!

The referee decided the outcome of that match. Of that I have no doubt. But before anyone starts shooting me down in flames, I will explain myself in due course. I watched Paul Warne's interviews on both Sky and Rams TV, and thought he was pretty darned good, because he put everything in the right perspective. In the end, Plymouth didn't win the match last night, neither did the ref hand it to them on a plate. We lost that match. 

At half-time I was satisfied, but curiously unsatisfied. We had done a good job on Plymouth, been on the front foot and contained them pretty well. But at the same time, our play wasn't that impressive. I don'[t know whether it is since Bird was injured, but we seem to have adopted a more basic style of play - perhaps more towards the style we expected (or feared when Warne was first appointed), and it has co-incided with our drop in form. Some of it is that Warne's game plan involves putting the ball out into the channels to create the chance of crosses into the box, but all our play has migrated to the longer ball (not route one or hoofball) style of game. In recent games where we have struggled, we have scored after getting the ball on the floor and playing football with it. And our first half last Saturday was entirely as a result of playing football instead of channel-hopping. Similarly when the ball is in the air in midfield, our lads seem to think that what they have got to do is head it back up into the air, as if playing a head-tennis version of keepy-uppy. Sadly, where the ball might drop after the latest cranial launch doesn't seem to matter, and it inevitably goes to an opposition player who can start an attack with it - by getting the ball down on the floor and playing football with it. We have got the players who can do this, but it is almost as if they are not allowed to do it!

For the first Plymouth goal, there has been a lot of  criticism of White for his lack of a firm tackle. Actually the scorer had only just come onto the pitch, so maybe we weren't clear as to who should pick him up, so he was able to roam free on the right hand side. But actually as the attack was flowing forwards, I noticed Hayden Roberts jogging back into position. Plymouth had caught us on the break, which is how the get a lot of their goals, but if Roberts was in position, the Plymouth striker wouldn't have been free and unmarked, so possibly wouldn't have scored.

There is also the impression from  some of the criticism of our play that we were absolutely mullered last night, but the stats tell a different story, with honours fairly even. Plymouth played way better than we did in the second half, and moved the ball really well, but actually didn't threaten us that much. A 1 - 1 draw would have been a fair result with it being a game of two halves. Re tired players, some of it is playing a high energy game with a small squad, because there aren't enough players to rotate properly, and we don't have much variety within the squad. But Paul's penchant for like-for like substitutions might hark back to something he said just after he arrived. He wanted his players to give their all, and if they "gas out" (a favourite phrase of his) it is not a problem, he would simply bring a sub on. Almost saying "Oh, this player is worn out, I'll get another one", expecting them to do the same thing as the broken model, which then points at Warne's approach being rather one-dimensional. Which brings us to his lack of adapting to the opposition changing their tactics, ass per last night, when Plymouth changed their formation 3 times in the second half.

Re the penalty - any contact was the rubbing together of the leather of two boots side by side for a split second. The player then flicked his feet backwards, and arched his back like he had been shoved in the back. It was sooooo obvious only a buffoon, or an EFL referee would buy it. VulcanRam quite rightly says that this sort of event shouldn't be a match-decider. We shouldn't put ourselves in that position, and once it has happened, we should have big enough balls to shake ourselves down and say "Right. Let's sort this out for ourselves", and take the match by the scruff of the neck. Instead, our heads go down. They shouldn't, but although we have virtually a completely different squad to previous seasons, having bad decisions go against us seems pretty incessant, so "Oh no. Not again" is the response. Come on Derby County - MAN UP!!

There was an interesting stat given by Sky last night - Most penalties conceded in League 1. It should read "Most penalties awarded against". I know we only had 3 penalties against us last season (thanks, VulcanRam), so should we be slagging the refs off as much as we do? (Yes, me included!). Well yes, once you factor all the blatant, nailed on, stonewall penalties we weren't given last year, and it was a fair few of them! WE had two good shouts turned down on Saturday, which may have overcome the dodgy penalty awarded against us, of course.

Let's hope that Paul Warne's hairdryer has found a new use, and we get a good response on Saturday.

[DavesaRam]

6 minutes ago, FlyBritishMidland said:

Spot on.  Call it dark arts, game management or whatever it’s what we need to do.  We need to disrupt the play when the opposition are on top.  Take our time at throw ins and goal kicks, needless fouls on the half way line, etc.  Basically, take any opportunity to disrupt the rhythm and it’s even more important away from home.  It might be unpopular but we need a Robbie Savage type player.  And one or two in their mid-20’s.

Yes. If, when Sibley got absolutely clattered on the touchline, he had rolled around holding his leg, maybe the ref might have reacted differently. I know if Sibley had gone in on the Plymouth player in the same way, he may well have been red-carded! 

[Inverurie Ram]

18 hours ago, cj9a408 said:

Whilst that was never a penalty (and how Sky suggested there was contact il never know) we need to look at ourselves properly. Plymouth are a good side and are second for a reason - they were always going to come out in that second half fighting and we allowed them to. 
 

How many times did we over hit a pass, rush our play or loop a header straight back to them when a white shirt was free close by??

We caused the pressure ourselves and we need to start learning from it. Warne’s philosophy of getting the ball forward quickly works when on the ascendancy but sometimes you need to slow it down and take control and we simply aren’t doing that when we need to and it’s costing us points!! 

….we were playing in purple….just saying…..give @DarkFruitsRam7 a shout he’ll keep you right!

After 10 mins of watching the lad from Spurs play away at Barnsley when Barnsley walked right through the middle of the pitch from the half way line to our goal, I feared the worse when I saw the team selection last night.

It’s hard work watching, it’s like being stuck in a pub with a load of youngsters / students that are trying to look the part, and are speaking loudly and annoyingly, whilst they are drinking this (see photo’s) when you’d rather be somewhere else drinking or better still they were somewhere else, (and not drinking) or you decide to escape them all, by staying at home drinking the stuff out the blue bottle instead!

 

 

[ram59]

I wonder if some of the 'hardmen' from the 70s would have taken their player out later in the game, with a game/season finishing tackle, then bend down and say to him "now that's what I call contact"?

[Mr Tibbs]

 

29 minutes ago, FlyBritishMidland said:

Spot on.  Call it dark arts, game management or whatever it’s what we need to do.  We need to disrupt the play when the opposition are on top.  Take our time at throw ins and goal kicks, needless fouls on the half way line, etc.  Basically, take any opportunity to disrupt the rhythm and it’s even more important away from home.  It might be unpopular but we need a Robbie Savage type player.  And one or two in their mid-20’s.

I'm sure PW will have showed their equaliser to White and Knight today and told them they need to be so much better when they've got us on the run. Multiple opportunities there to take a yellow and get back in. 

Barnsley did it to us loads the other week, not nice to watch if you're an opposing fan but it does the trick. To come away with results against the better teams we're going to have to do it. We're a bit too naive and nice for sure. 

[Rambalin]

15 minutes ago, ram59 said:

I wonder if some of the 'hardmen' from the 70s would have taken their player out later in the game, with a game/season finishing tackle, then bend down and say to him "now that's what I call contact"?

Would love to have seen what would have happened had he done it too Mackay or John McGarth to name just two........Warne should show the young lads this on how to do it

 

 

Edited March 8, 2023 by Rambalin

[Grumpy Git]

42 minutes ago, DavesaRam said:

.................... all the blatant, nailed on, stonewall penalties we weren't given last year, and it was a fair few of them!

The one not given at home v Forest in front of the SS for handball was ludicrous

[Ram-Alf]

39 minutes ago, ram59 said:

I wonder if some of the 'hardmen' from the 70s would have taken their player out later in the game, with a game/season finishing tackle, then bend down and say to him "now that's what I call contact"?

Nobby Stiles, Ron chopper Harris, Paddy Crerand, John Magrath, Norman Hunter, Paul Reaney, Colin Todd,Dave McKay, Archie Gemmil, Billy Bremner, Henry Newton, Trevor Hockey, Alan Gilzean to name a few, They were minders, They looked after their star players and if they got done...then they'd get done, An enforcer has now been replaced with over reaction playacting...football is no longer a contact sport  

When the tackle from behind was outlawed some just faded away. 

Edited March 8, 2023 by The Last Post

[Ramarena]

4 hours ago, duncanjwitham said:

I'm not even sure we needed to do that.  The big problem was the gaping hole in front of our back 4 - every time they broke on us, they were running straight at our defence.  Warne seems to want all his midfielders to play like box-to-box midfielders, running forwards to press or support, then running back to defend.  That's just about okay when everyone's fit and understands their role, but when your team is tired or not used to it, it's a recipe for getting caught out when they all run forwards and nobody runs back.  White (or any of the midfielders really) just needed to go and stand in front of the back 4 and stay there.  Then he can spot attacks early and get in place to deal with it, and when we get the ball back, offer a simple pass so we're not hoofing it to nobody all the time.

Not sure this is the case. It was quite clear from the positions he was taking up, that White was designated as the more defensive of the three midfielders, he was sat deepest in the middle.

The problems stemmed from the fact that he's not good at that role as he can't track players, players were running in behind him and getting/creating chances. Silly thing is, for the first goal he was actually facing the player, he picked a decent position, but got skinned. 

I put that down to manager error, not player. He shouldn't have had White as the deepest defender away against Plymouth, it was asking for trouble, he should have kept Smith in there.