The Administration Thread

[Tamworthram]

15 minutes ago, i-Ram said:

If I remember correctly the COVID Loan that was available was £8.3m. The debt to MSD when he threw his keys on the table was £20m, and to HMRC some £25m plus, plus other debt of some £25m to football clubs, solicitors, charities, shopkeepers, and forum owners.

Mel Morris completely mismanaged our club, and it’s finances, and has never once put his had up and admitted his mistakes. He bought the club with a stadium, and it’s sale should go through with the stadium back in the club’s ownership. He should do the right thing, but after 8 years of failing miserably I won’t hold my breath.

Good point. I'd forgotten the Covid loans were nowhere near £20m.

Ignore my previous post. As you were.

[Foreveram]

3 minutes ago, BucksRam said:

To be honest, I'm passed the point of re-visiting what the EFL did or didn't do - I have my views, I've voiced them on here.  We just need to move on and hope that going forward CK (assuming and hoping the deal goes through) establishes a good relationship with them. And if the structure changes, with an independent regulator coming in then we abide by whatever rules that results in. The fact is we simply must never have a repeat of this. 

As for money owed here, money owed there, again, I'm now at the point I don't care.  Pretty sure too that CK, MM, the EFL and Q have all thrashed out the details down to the penny, and we're of course not privy to those conversations.  For me, why should I stress about things completely out of my control.  All I want is for the deal to be done, the club to exist and for us to move on. If, by the time I have my planned BBQ at the weekend, it is done, then I may upgrade my rump steak to a sirloin....heck I may even go T-Bone or Fillet. 

Ok but do you have a sauce.

[Archied]

3 hours ago, Mostyn6 said:

on the contrary, I got more than I expected, however I wasn't going to give them away for way less than what I knew someone would pay for them. Which on appearance, is what MA appears to have chanced. Early on, Q announced a price to bidders, I bet nobody got near that price, however there will have been degrees of derisory bids.

I took individual pics of the collectible ones. But couldn't be arsed with separate listings. I had every 12" single for Charlatans, Oasis and Weller, as well as all the Smiths vinyls and some collectible RATM Picture vinyls, but my Pinky & Perkys Greatest Hits was the Marque Vinyl

£300 ???? , your gonna have to pay me more than that to take that lot

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

3 hours ago, Mostyn6 said:

on the contrary, I got more than I expected, however I wasn't going to give them away for way less than what I knew someone would pay for them. Which on appearance, is what MA appears to have chanced. Early on, Q announced a price to bidders, I bet nobody got near that price, however there will have been degrees of derisory bids.

I took individual pics of the collectible ones. But couldn't be arsed with separate listings. I had every 12" single for Charlatans, Oasis and Weller, as well as all the Smiths vinyls and some collectible RATM Picture vinyls, but my Pinky & Perkys Greatest Hits was the Marque Vinyl

Full collection and original - good 450- 500 quid on there own.  More if you had some of the alternate German covers and the Terence Stamp Hand in Glove.

[PistoldPete]

1 hour ago, Red Ram said:

So much of this is factually incorrect it's hard to know where to start but here goes anyway:-

(1) The EFL don't sign off accounts - the club's auditors do. The independent panel found that Derby did not make their anomolous amortisation policy sufficiently clear at the time. That's why we were ultimately hit with a retrospective points deduction further down the line.

(2) We breached FFP in 3 of 4 consecutive periods. The sanction for this, according to EFL rules (that we signed up to!), is a points deduction. By the letter of the law the EFL could have legimately deducted between 14 and 17 points so we actually got off lightly with 9.

(3) There's no vendetta. Other clubs have also been hit with points deductions for breaching EFL rules e.g. Sheffield Wednesday, Wigan, Birmingham and Reading (and they also sing 'Duck the EFL'). Again, we signed up to these rules just like these other clubs did and they all knew the consequences of breaching them just like we did.

(4) The EFL were not in a position to do anything about the Boro (or Wycombe claim) - it was between the two clubs. It's unrealisic to except the EFL to take sides in a dispute between two member clubs. You're basically saying they should have taken Derby's side. The framework for football governance needs to be changed to prevent claims like Boro's being made going forward but that is not supported by the rules as they stand.

In summary, blaming the EFL is like blaming the breathlyser when you get done for drunk driving. It quite simply represents a complete failure to take responsibility for the club's own actions.

We may well be on the verge of liquidation. If this happens, this is down to our lifelong fan owner and no-one else.

Hopefully though, we are on the verge of a new era with Kirchner. He's on record as saying he wants a constructive relationship with the EFL. It's time to draw a line under this and stop blaming the EFL for Mel Morris's misdemeanours.

Let's not be that club any more. We're better than that. I sincerely hope...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You are almost completely wrong in all of those points. The FFP charges were a big pile of poo concocted by EFL to placate Gibson who otherwise would have sued EFL.

the independent commission actually found that whatever misstatement there may have been in the accounts this was neither deliberate nor did it flatter our position. In fact the miswording made things look worse than they actually were. So it was a complete red herring brought up by EFL to distract from their own inconsistent approach. 
 

the simple fact is there was a change of regime at the EFL. The previous people thought our accounts were OK , Parry decided otherwise. To use your breathalyser analogy it’s like a cop telling you the alcohol limit is three pints and then another cop doing you because he thinks the limit should be two pints. 

[The_Sheriff]

1 hour ago, Red Ram said:

So much of this is factually incorrect it's hard to know where to start but here goes anyway:-

(1) The EFL don't sign off accounts - the club's auditors do. The independent panel found that Derby did not make their anomolous amortisation policy sufficiently clear at the time. That's why we were ultimately hit with a retrospective points deduction further down the line.

(2) We breached FFP in 3 of 4 consecutive periods. The sanction for this, according to EFL rules (that we signed up to!), is a points deduction. By the letter of the law the EFL could have legimately deducted between 14 and 17 points so we actually got off lightly with 9.

(3) There's no vendetta. Other clubs have also been hit with points deductions for breaching EFL rules e.g. Sheffield Wednesday, Wigan, Birmingham and Reading (and they also sing 'Duck the EFL'). Again, we signed up to these rules just like these other clubs did and they all knew the consequences of breaching them just like we did.

(4) The EFL were not in a position to do anything about the Boro (or Wycombe claim) - it was between the two clubs. It's unrealisic to except the EFL to take sides in a dispute between two member clubs. You're basically saying they should have taken Derby's side. The framework for football governance needs to be changed to prevent claims like Boro's being made going forward but that is not supported by the rules as they stand.

In summary, blaming the EFL is like blaming the breathlyser when you get done for drunk driving. It quite simply represents a complete failure to take responsibility for the club's own actions.

We may well be on the verge of liquidation. If this happens, this is down to our lifelong fan owner and no-one else.

Hopefully though, we are on the verge of a new era with Kirchner. He's on record as saying he wants a constructive relationship with the EFL. It's time to draw a line under this and stop blaming the EFL for Mel Morris's misdemeanours.

Let's not be that club any more. We're better than that. I sincerely hope...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Absolute bull. Have you heard rick parry in a interview with the athletic? He said he went for derby to stop boro suing them.

Why were Reading only docked 6 us 9? 

Why did they do an inverted fixture list something they never did before. 

I could go on and on.

Yes we signed up to the rules but guess what happens if you dont!

 

[kevinhectoring]

15 minutes ago, i-Ram said:

Morris couldn’t sell it to a subsidiary company of the club. He had created a huge FFP problem for the club, where the only way to escape a points penalty in 2018 was to sell the stadium at an arms length to himself as a ringfenced third party transaction.  If he hadn’t sold it to himself, or any other third party, he would have had a £41m hole in the accounts. As it turned out he was only kicking the can down the road.

yes you're right of course that a sale to a sub would not have fixed the FFP issue 

but that's not what my post is about   It was about whether the problem is money, or ownership of the stadium     

The elegance of CK's offer (stadium not included, but required as a condition) is that he presents a bid for the club that implies no points deduction. And then it's all eyes on MM to fix the funding gap, because the stadium is 'owned by him' .  So MM is under massive pressure literally to subsidise CK's bid (pressure which includes death threats).   In footballing terms, MM is asked to gift CK 15 points next season. Might be as much as £1m per point !! 

I think MM will fix it btw, and that CK might help a little as well, through the negotiations. Won't be long now, just one more extension perhaps ...

 

[derby8]

Derby and the Football League, now efl.

Original member 1888, currently on 4992 games, hopefully number 5000 early next season, third to get there I think after Preston, Burnley.

End of season position on Derby County stats thread.

[Mucker1884]

49 minutes ago, i-Ram said:

...but after 8 years of failing miserably I won’t hold my breath.

You've been trying to hold your breath for 8 years?  

That's just weird!

[Mucker1884]

1 hour ago, RadioactiveWaste said:

... it's perfectly legitimate to have some string feelings towards the EFL.

 

Nah, mate!  We tried that already!

[Boycie]

I’ve got a 12inch that I’m proud of.

 

 

It was Living Doll, Cliff Richard and the Young One’s.

[samtheram83]

3 hours ago, Mostyn6 said:

on the contrary, I got more than I expected, however I wasn't going to give them away for way less than what I knew someone would pay for them. Which on appearance, is what MA appears to have chanced. Early on, Q announced a price to bidders, I bet nobody got near that price, however there will have been degrees of derisory bids.

I took individual pics of the collectible ones. But couldn't be arsed with separate listings. I had every 12" single for Charlatans, Oasis and Weller, as well as all the Smiths vinyls and some collectible RATM Picture vinyls, but my Pinky & Perkys Greatest Hits was the Marque Vinyl

Shaun Barker like fee?

[i-Ram]

1 minute ago, kevinhectoring said:

yes you're right of course that a sale to a sub would not have fixed the FFP issue 

but that's not what my post is about   It was about whether the problem is money, or ownership of the stadium     

The elegance of CK's offer (stadium not included, but required as a condition) is that he presents a bid for the club that implies no points deduction. And then it's all eyes on MM to fix the funding gap, because the stadium is 'owned by him' .  So MM is under massive pressure literally to subsidise CK's bid (pressure which includes death threats).   In footballing terms, MM is asked to gift CK 15 points next season. Might be as much as £1m per point !! 

I think MM will fix it btw, and that CK might help a little as well, through the negotiations. Won't be long now, just one more extension perhaps ...

You could call it elegance, and it is not an unfair presentation of CK’s bid. However, the issue here of course is that our husk of a club even with a stadium, is not worth a great deal. We seem to be down to 2 purchaser options. CK and Ashley. I suspect they are offering broadly the same amount of money, Ashley perhaps a little lower. However CK is wanting to spend his bucks on the creditors, and doing a deal which satisfies EFL and 35% of creditor claims over a 3 year period. No point deductions, and level playing field for us next season in L1. He has Q’s support in that regard, but Morris appears to be standing firm in giving the stadium back (impasse). So some third party input is perhaps required to finesse the deal and get the stadium out of his hands, perhaps Derby CC or a League of Gentlemen whichever Journo you want to believe. Ashley though, IN MY OPINION, doesn’t give a stuff about the creditors or a points deduction, indeed I think he would be ok if we are in L2. He is more interested in his bucks getting the stadium, and getting rid of Morris and MSD. I suspect Morris likes that too, because I am more convinced (and yes one eyed) that Morris prioritises getting some money back in preference to putting the club first. One hell of a mess. 

[RoyMac5]

3 minutes ago, i-Ram said:

...Ashley though, IN MY OPINION, doesn’t give a stuff about the creditors or a points deduction, indeed I think he would be ok if we are in L2. He is more interested in his bucks getting the stadium, and getting rid of Morris and MSD. I suspect Morris likes that too, because I am more convinced (and yes one eyed) that Morris prioritises getting some money back in preference to putting the club first. One hell of a mess. 

What would he get out of a relatively empty football stadium?

[i-Ram]

2 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

What would he get out of a relatively empty football stadium?

Who Ashley or Morris?

[kevinhectoring]

1 hour ago, Red Ram said:

So much of this is factually incorrect it's hard to know where to start but here goes anyway:-

(1) The EFL don't sign off accounts - the club's auditors do. The independent panel found that Derby did not make their anomolous amortisation policy sufficiently clear at the time. That's why we were ultimately hit with a retrospective points deduction further down the line.

(2) We breached FFP in 3 of 4 consecutive periods. The sanction for this, according to EFL rules (that we signed up to!), is a points deduction. By the letter of the law the EFL could have legimately deducted between 14 and 17 points so we actually got off lightly with 9.

(3) There's no vendetta. Other clubs have also been hit with points deductions for breaching EFL rules e.g. Sheffield Wednesday, Wigan, Birmingham and Reading (and they also sing 'Duck the EFL'). Again, we signed up to these rules just like these other clubs did and they all knew the consequences of breaching them just like we did.

(4) The EFL were not in a position to do anything about the Boro (or Wycombe claim) - it was between the two clubs. It's unrealisic to except the EFL to take sides in a dispute between two member clubs. You're basically saying they should have taken Derby's side. The framework for football governance needs to be changed to prevent claims like Boro's being made going forward but that is not supported by the rules as they stand.

In summary, blaming the EFL is like blaming the breathlyser when you get done for drunk driving. It quite simply represents a complete failure to take responsibility for the club's own actions.

We may well be on the verge of liquidation. If this happens, this is down to our lifelong fan owner and no-one else.

Hopefully though, we are on the verge of a new era with Kirchner. He's on record as saying he wants a constructive relationship with the EFL. It's time to draw a line under this and stop blaming the EFL for Mel Morris's misdemeanours.

Let's not be that club any more. We're better than that. I sincerely hope...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

good post, thanks.   Reading between the lines, it seemed Parry did put some pressure on Gibbo to back off, and by the end Parry was signalling frustration at Boro's position. (We'll never know, but maybe in part it was pressure from EFL that Ied to the 'accord': Gibbo was not under great pressure to settle when he did, except from some quarters of the media (eg G Neville) and the odd MP who called him out.) But Gibbo's malicious intent was there for all to see and the EFL full timers needed to do more.  Q was apparently out to lunch the whole time

[WharfedaleRam]

10 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

What would he get out of a relatively empty football stadium?

Dunno. Ask Gibson!
 

[RoyMac5]

16 minutes ago, i-Ram said:

Who Ashley or Morris?

Ashley. You have him not caring about the football?

[curb]

42 minutes ago, kevinhectoring said:

In footballing terms, MM is asked to gift CK 15 points next season. Might be as much as £1m per point !! 

No,

After already ‘gifting’ CK relegation to league 1, MM is being asked to give back the -15 that the debts he ran up have caused.

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

45 minutes ago, Boycie said:

I’ve got a 12inch that I’m proud of.

 

 

It was Living Doll, Cliff Richard and the Young One’s.

That the one with Vivians belch on a 2 minute loop. Club classic.