RamsTrust

[The Scarlet Pimpernel]

7 hours ago, RamsfanJim said:

The club and media will always listen when groups represent large numbers of fans - they would be stupid not to (even if they don't act accordingly). They can easily ignore 1 or 2 individuals. That is what we are here for. 

Jim, I think that when fans need to be heard they do it at matches. If the majority of fans have something to say they say it loud and clear. No need for anything official. 

[Chester40]

7 minutes ago, RamsfanJim said:

At which point? Do you mean recently? 

Protests were never going to achieve anything when Mel Morris was trying to sell anyway - what was the point? 

Our aims are to give supporters a voice (fuller aims are above in this thread). If the club won't talk to us, those aims can't be achieved. 

I suppose historically and recently, over the decades Derby fans have had much to be angry about!

This will come over more negative than its meant, but I feel like the club may have been speaking to you/Trust,  but I wasn't aware of it and do you think it made any difference other than make you feel like you were important ? Because the alternative would greatly have interested and energised me and a lot more people too I think. 

I don't know the answer, again I'm asking in hindsight do you stand by the approach?

[Rammeister]

9 hours ago, RamsfanJim said:

We have had regular contact with the administrators and have forwarded a couple of enquiries from people claiming to be interested in the club (not sure they had the funds though). We have had meetings with the EFL and ongoing contact. We have lobbied MPs who have spoken to the EFL and HMRC to out the club's case. 

Thank you for the response. Y’know, that I didn’t really expect you to cobble together £50 million?

 

[BaaLocks]

9 hours ago, RamsfanJim said:

I would put money that when we have represented our members there are similar views held by non-members. I do accept if other fans have views not held by any of our members then we won't have put them forward. 

Yeah Jim, that's where you kind of snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Your views are representative of the fans, and if you have enough members you have a fair claim they are significantly representative, which is one more reason why people should join so that you can claim this with confidence. But I think when you start to suggest you speak for the views of non-members I can see why some may feel that gets their hackles up. It's all in the wording, and I know you are doing a lot to evolve this but the nuance is significant and is behind much of the ill feeling that some people hold.

[RamsfanJim]

1 hour ago, Chester40 said:

I suppose historically and recently, over the decades Derby fans have had much to be angry about!

This will come over more negative than its meant, but I feel like the club may have been speaking to you/Trust,  but I wasn't aware of it and do you think it made any difference other than make you feel like you were important ? Because the alternative would greatly have interested and energised me and a lot more people too I think. 

I don't know the answer, again I'm asking in hindsight do you stand by the approach?

yes, the club certainly did listen and took on board some comments & yes I stand by the approach

[Chester40]

16 minutes ago, BaaLocks said:

Yeah Jim, that's where you kind of snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Your views are representative of the fans, and if you have enough members you have a fair claim they are significantly representative, which is one more reason why people should join so that you can claim this with confidence. But I think when you start to suggest you speak for the views of non-members I can see why some may feel that gets their hackles up. It's all in the wording, and I know you are doing a lot to evolve this but the nuance is significant and is behind much of the ill feeling that some people hold.

For me there are literally hundreds and hundreds of season ticket holders who regularly use this forum and I cannot recall any of them until very recently ever saying 'maybe we should ask the Trust' ..or maybe approach the trust about...,or look at the great ideas coming from the trust.. or... well..anything..? It seems like its probably a great democratic talking shop internally but they are an echo chamber for a few members that aren't touching the wider public at a time when there is a huge spotlight on us?

[MaltRam]

RT is full of well meaning people but derives it's existance from a flawed system. The mandate of one organisation to officially represent 'the fans' of each club is silly.

I joined briefly, during the 3 Amigos fiasco and it wasn't something I'd repeat. It's a sideshow. Best to leave it that way, IMO.

[Eddie]

11 minutes ago, Needlesh said:

RT is full of well meaning people but derives it's existance from a flawed system. The mandate of one organisation to officially represent 'the fans' of each club is silly.

I joined briefly, during the 3 Amigos fiasco and it wasn't something I'd repeat. It's a sideshow. Best to leave it that way, IMO.

Basically, you are saying that there's no point in even bothering?

[Crewton]

Writing as a fan with no skin in the game (I'm not a member of any supporter group, save for being a ST holder), judging by the comments on this thread, Ramstrust appears to have achieved the remarkable feat of being both anonymous and universally despised! 

I guess that's inevitable though when different times call for different approaches. It's hard to be both a representative body AND a protest movement. Fans are naturally suspicious of any of their fellow supporters who are perceived as being too cosy with the club hierarchy, yet it's hard to maintain a critical approach towards that hierarchy and still hold meaningful dialogue with them, as I suspect RT and others have found in recent years. 

I doubt it's possible to create an organisation to represent the fans that would have universal approval, but it would appear entirely possible for more fans to join existing bodies and turn them into something different/better, if they have the will? 

[Ram-Alf]

3 minutes ago, Crewton said:

Writing as a fan with no skin in the game (I'm not a member of any supporter group, save for being a ST holder), judging by the comments on this thread, Ramstrust appears to have achieved the remarkable feat of being both anonymous and universally despised! 

I guess that's inevitable though when different times call for different approaches. It's hard to be both a representative body AND a protest movement. Fans are naturally suspicious of any of their fellow supporters who are perceived as being too cosy with the club hierarchy, yet it's hard to maintain a critical approach towards that hierarchy and still hold meaningful dialogue with them, as I suspect RT and others have found in recent years. 

I doubt it's possible to create an organisation to represent the fans that would have universal approval, but it would appear entirely possible for more fans to join existing bodies and turn them into something different/better, if they have the will? 

When you go into battle, The armed forces are on the Land, In the Air or at Sea, They will have a multitude of people behind the scenes planning, Listening, Asking, I get what The RT are, The RPG were the Armed Forces, They went into battle, They had vast support from the supporters.

What i'd have if possible is RT take hold of the planning, Listening and Asking while the armed forces(supporters)are there for the battle, Unfortunately as Eddie said long standing memories.

[therams69]

12 hours ago, angieram said:

Meant in a kind way, bloomin' amazing job you do lugging that flag around. ???

Just pointing out that doesn't make you any more representative than the next fan. Hope you're OK with that. 

Bang on the money Angie! People often perceive that it does and that is so frustrating!

[Ghost of Clough]

1 hour ago, BaaLocks said:

Yeah Jim, that's where you kind of snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Your views are representative of the fans, and if you have enough members you have a fair claim they are significantly representative, which is one more reason why people should join so that you can claim this with confidence. But I think when you start to suggest you speak for the views of non-members I can see why some may feel that gets their hackles up. It's all in the wording, and I know you are doing a lot to evolve this but the nuance is significant and is behind much of the ill feeling that some people hold.

@RamsfanJim

First bit: This is conditional upon the second bit as it can only representative of the wider fan base if you have enough members. The Rams Trust has always been a very small selection of the fan base, so that needs to be addressed to be truly representative. 

Second bit: I feel the lack of engagement with the fans has been a massive reason why membership numbers have been so low. This forum is by far the biggest group of Derby fans (overlapping with other groups of course) so it's been narrow minded of the Trust to only now come on to the forum to discuss things - even if an arm had to be twisted to get a RT representative on here. From being a member on here, you'd get a much better understanding of the differing views. Just from signing up and talking to fellow fans on this forum the Trust will have increased its membership, myself being one of them.

Jim, from reading your posts, you're a very busy man... especially with current events. I suggest the Trust have a designated representative on this board who has a bit more spare time. Someone who is happy informing the wider fan base of recent developments and someone who enjoys debating ideas with others. It helps non-members to understand what's going on, they get to know the Trust on a more personal basis, and then are more likely to become members.

Thanks for finding a bit of time to join the forum and interacting with us. I hope you decide to stay on here long-term and have the odd chat.

[May Contain Nuts]

4 hours ago, Chester40 said:

I find it extraordinary that you or someone else hasn't found your way on to this forum before to recruit members in a very explicit way.

Last time they tried that they practically killed off RamZone! ?

That wasn't so much a recruitment drive as a takeover followed by an expulsion program of anyone who criticised them. It all got very nasty and petty - and I will point out that this came from both/all sides -  and individual, personal grudges were allowed to ride roughshod over constructive discussions (to the point of legal action and people's names having to be put on the swear filter!); eventually it amounted to a very low number of posters and a bit of an RT echo chamber with an ever decreasing numbers of posts, before the plug was pulled on that whole network a few years later. 

That's all a very long time in the past though!

However all these years later the PR still needs some work, they do still seem to find ways of (unintentionally) winding up the people they're vying for the support of. That said I think Jim's alright tbf, comes across well and recent RamsTrust PR has generally been a little better recently...

...but then you have the previously mentioned 'racist' twitter post which shows up the problem again. Whether it was or wasn't a racist comment is almost immaterial, you've got to play the social media game nowadays and RT just don't seem to be that well equipped for it.

People on Twitter don't accept posts being deleted and explained away, they're not interested in context, they want short sharp apologies accepting full blame, they want to see people made an example of and any groups they're connected to to publicly denounce any association with them.

I don't know what they could do do change the perception of them (maybe there simply is nothing that can be done)  but I can't see many people in the 30-50 age range being encouraged to sign up let alone the younger fans, they'll just go to that Black & White group thingy.

I suppose they're a bit like CAMRA in that! Try as they might they'll always struggle (fairly or not) to shake off the public image of an outmoded, fusty and at times insular organisation struggling to keep up with the times. (Sounds like they'd be ideal for the EFL board!)

I don't think many people truly believe the notion that you can join and make a difference, that every voice is truly equal, that you can challenge the status quo and your opinion will be taken on board. Some cite exactly the opposite experience, I have no personal experience with RT to draw though and no axe to grind, so it wouldn't be right or fair to discuss that any further.

Edited October 29, 2021 by Coconut's Beard

[Ram-Alf]

8 minutes ago, Coconut's Beard said:

...but then you have the previously mentioned 'racist' twitter post which shows up the problem again.  You've got to play the social media game nowadays and RT just don't seem to be that well equipped for it.

 

A lot of angst still remains from Ramzone, In particular from one person who was the catalist of it's demise...I think those that were there know who.

 

[angieram]

How many years have to go by before people move on, though? 5? 10? 15? 

People commit crimes, are sentenced and released back into society in less time than some seem to bear grudges. 

[Tyler Durden]

2 hours ago, Crewton said:

 Ramstrust appears to have achieved the remarkable feat of being both anonymous and universally despised! 

Who's coming on now and nicking my job.....

[RoyMac5]

1 hour ago, Ghost of Clough said:

First bit: This is conditional upon the second bit as it can only representative of the wider fan base if you have enough members. The Rams Trust has always been a very small selection of the fan base, so that needs to be addressed to be truly representative. 

Second bit: I feel the lack of engagement with the fans has been a massive reason why membership numbers have been so low. This forum is by far the biggest group of Derby fans (overlapping with other groups of course) so it's been narrow minded of the Trust to only now come on to the forum to discuss things - even if an arm had to be twisted to get a RT representative on here. From being a member on here, you'd get a much better understanding of the differing views. Just from signing up and talking to fellow fans on this forum the Trust will have increased its membership, myself being one of them.

First bit: how?!

Second bit: If people joined then they could do some 'engaging'. There are lots of examples in the world where small amounts of people do all the work while others sit back and enjoy the work done. RT is no different.

1 hour ago, Coconut's Beard said:

I don't think many people truly believe the notion that you can join and make a difference, that every voice is truly equal, that you can challenge the status quo and your opinion will be taken on board. Some cite exactly the opposite experience, I have no personal experience with RT to draw though and no axe to grind, so it wouldn't be right or fair to discuss that any further.

We're talking about democracy here. How many people even vote in their local council elections let alone get involved? 

There's only a vague consensus about things Derby County on this forum. Look on other DCFC forums and 'our' consensus often isn't theirs!

Join RT and change things, don't join and accept what RT is.

[Chester40]

7 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

Who's coming on now and nicking my job.....

I thought you were one and the same tbh.

[Ghost of Clough]

13 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

First bit: how?!

You're at a party and you want to take a girl back home with you.
Do you:
(a) stand in the corner hoping an attractive girl comes over to you.
(b) talk to a girl you like

My perception of the Rams Trust is them taking option a. Option b tends to be a lot more successful. 

13 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Second bit: If people joined then they could do some 'engaging'. There are lots of examples in the world where small amounts of people do all the work while others sit back and enjoy the work done. RT is no different.

See my response to the first bit.
For the majority, talk to them, get to know them, then they might join

13 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

We're talking about democracy here. How many people even vote in their local council elections let alone get involved? 

There's only a vague consensus about things Derby County on this forum. Look on other DCFC forums and 'our' consensus often isn't theirs!

Join RT and change things, don't join and accept what RT is.

It's about having a broader understanding of the differing views/opinions rather than reaching a consensus. If you only used Twitter to gauge opinion of any specific political party, you'll have a very narrow viewpoint which isn't truly representative of the overall population. Similar applies here. This forum is home to the largest group of Derby fans, with a massive range of opinions

People don't usually join something they don't [think they] like. However, if they're shown that it isn't actually as bad as made out (public engagement) then they will join. 

[Wolfie]

12 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

You're at a party and you want to take a girl back home with you.
Do you:
(a) stand in the corner hoping an attractive girl comes over to you.
(b) talk to a girl you like

My perception of the Rams Trust is them taking option a. Option b tends to be a lot more successful. 

See my response to the first bit.
For the majority, talk to them, get to know them, then they might join

It's about having a broader understanding of the differing views/opinions rather than reaching a consensus. If you only used Twitter to gauge opinion of any specific political party, you'll have a very narrow viewpoint which isn't truly representative of the overall population. Similar applies here. This forum is home to the largest group of Derby fans, with a massive range of opinions

People don't usually join something they don't [think they] like. However, if they're shown that it isn't actually as bad as made out (public engagement) then they will join. 

Most disappointing post ever.

From the beginning bit, I thought you were sharing a Cosmo sex quiz.