Alan Nixon Breaks Silence on American Billionaire Bid

[Sparkle]

7 hours ago, AGR said:

But that’s the point. We haven’t got a prove-able case against QPR just like they haven’t got a prove-able case against us and they know that. The only reason they are getting a penny out of us is because they are stalling the takeover and putting us on the verge of liquidation. If we weren’t in admin we would fight it off easily 

We most certainly do have a prove-able against QPR because they have been charged they have been judged and they have accepted that they massively overspent and did so knowing that they were breaking the rules at the time - do I think we should, no I don’t but neither should Middlesbrough and their owner is being vindictive, mardy and intentionally attempting to destroy what we have left in terms of playing staff potential as well as trying to stop any potential takeover from happening 

[atherstoneram]

7 hours ago, Crewton said:

So they could rise above unsecured creditors in the pecking order. It doesn't automatically mean they're duty bound to demand 100% of what's due to them. They can now decide what's the best solution for the exchequer, balanced against all other factors. Going through struggling companies like a wrecking ball in the midst of a pandemic may not be the best look. 

Nor to the general tax payer of seeing them accept only a fraction of what is owed,people outside football see the game as awash with money. 

[Sparkle]

7 minutes ago, atherstoneram said:

Nor to the general tax payer of seeing them accept only a fraction of what is owed,people outside football see the game as awash with money. 

Football is awash with debt but it’s tribal and if the tribes get upset then the leaders get eliminated which is why the leaders try to keep the tribes quiet. The leaders will tell the taxman to do a deal especially when so much money has been mis spent during covid so far by the leaders.

[jono]

25 minutes ago, atherstoneram said:

Of course it will set a precedent, if HMRC accept 25p in the pound then the next club that goes into admin will turn round and say,we are only paying 25p in the pound as that's what you accepted from Derby.  So the fight for HMRC to become preferential creditors has been lost.

The rules for preference are set out in law for different industries at different times. They are where they are on the list because of the law. As are MSD and whoever else. No precedent is set by how much they get from a failed business being liquidated or re financed. Preferential doesn’t mean you get all your money back .. it’s just the order on a list. It doesn’t alter the facts. In the same way, MSD’s position is what it is because of how they lent money and secured it. The only thing that might change is that HMRC will be less likely to let PAYE debt extend to such large amounts before issuing winding up orders against football companies. 

[PistoldPete]

1 hour ago, atherstoneram said:

Nor to the general tax payer of seeing them accept only a fraction of what is owed,people outside football see the game as awash with money. 

So to the  general taxpayer ,  the message is we would rather see you go bust and pay us nothing than let you pay us what you can afford. , 

strange kind of message if that is what it is.

[RAM1966]

1 hour ago, PistoldPete said:

So to the  general taxpayer ,  the message is we would rather see you go bust and pay us nothing than let you pay us what you can afford. , 

strange kind of message if that is what it is.

Its not a strange message at all, if HMRC do a deal and write off any debt at all they will be setti g a precedence that every other business in the country will want to persue.  

The only kind of deal we may get as a long extended period of time to pay the debt off.  

I think the only way out of this mess is for Morris to gift the stadium as part of the deal, that way the club assets might just about outweigh the debts.

I still cant understand why we didnt apeal the -12....  that would have been done and dusted now....  Had we of won we would of had a reasonable chance of staying up and the clubs value would if been more.  rolling over in the manner we have is quite remarkable....

[Crewton]

2 hours ago, atherstoneram said:

Nor to the general tax payer of seeing them accept only a fraction of what is owed,people outside football see the game as awash with money. 

When Vodafone and others got their sweetheart deals, saving them billions in tax, there was no public outcry from the taxpayer. No political fall-out whatsoever. This argument that the taxpayer will feel robbed is overplayed. Fans of rival football teams will of course bang on about it for decades, obviously, like they do about a disrespectful chant they heard at a game 20 years ago, but would have no impact on hmrc or the government. I doubt therefore that "public outcry" will be high on their considerations, but I accept deterrence might be. 

It's also worth pointing out that, when those sweetheart deals were done, no precedent that any other company could rely on was set. HMRC have always followed their own rules within the statutory framework set by government. 

Edited December 8, 2021 by Crewton

[Kathcairns]

9 hours ago, B4ev6is said:

Yes of cause they do

Not going to send them for Derby for free are they.

No i know that, but surely if they are not sold you must be able to return them, so its not costing Derby anything is it.

[Kathcairns]

9 hours ago, B4ev6is said:

Yes of cause they do

Not going to send them for Derby for free are they.

Did you really think that we got away tickets for free?

[Kathcairns]

5 minutes ago, Kathcairns said:

No i know that, but surely if they are not sold you must be able to return them, so its not costing Derby anything is it.

Sorry i meant did you really think that i thought we got them free?

[Ghost of Clough]

21 minutes ago, RAM1966 said:

I still cant understand why we didnt apeal the -12....  that would have been done and dusted now....  Had we of won we would of had a reasonable chance of staying up and the clubs value would if been more.  rolling over in the manner we have is quite remarkable....

Because the P&S case would have dragged on all season long, preventing any takeover from happening.

[Ram-Alf]

12 hours ago, SBW said:

 

If they were going to do a deal that was in anyway favourable to Derby, it would have already happened.

 

 

 

 

If they were going to Liquidate us...it would already have happened, Why keep talking?, If HMRC are so bloody obstinate surely they would have sent us to the electric chair by now.

Just a thought

Edited December 8, 2021 by Unlucky Alf

[MackworthRamIsGod]

3 minutes ago, Unlucky Alf said:

If they were going to Liquidate us...it would already have happened, Why keep talking?, If HMRC are so bloody obstinate surely they would have sent us to the electric chair by now.

Just a thought

It is a fair point.

Mel keeping the stadium has put a lot of people's backs up, but it could have been a clever move. Had that been part of the club, liquidation could have been the easier option, as the stadium gets sold off to pay debts.

The only saving grace at the minute is, liquidation doesn't really generate that much to pay everyone off, 15 million max for the players, in the event of liquidation we would probably get half that if lucky.

I suppose it is in everyone's interests the club keeps going and a payment plan set up.

[StarterForTen]

We should remember that the CVA (Company Voluntary Arrangement) of debt reduction to sell to a new owner (and exit administration) needs to be agreed by a vote of creditors, with 75% (by value of debt) agreeing to the terms.

When Mel's book debt is taken into account, the monies owed to HMRC is less than 25% of the total, so they may not get to block a CVA vote anyway. It will depend on how Mel plays his hand.

[Grumpy Git]

How about this, the (potential) new owners do a deal with HMRC and the details are kept entirely private?

Our wonderful government recently secured a deal with Nissan in Sunderland but refused to disclose how much of a backhander they had to give Nissan to keep them sweet.

[Foreveram]

8 minutes ago, Grumpy Git said:

How about this, the (potential) new owners do a deal with HMRC and the details are kept entirely private?

Our wonderful government recently secured a deal with Nissan in Sunderland but refused to disclose how much of a backhander they had to give Nissan to keep them sweet.

This is exactly what I was thinking, everything else seems to involve an NDA .

[rynny]

3 hours ago, jono said:

The rules for preference are set out in law for different industries at different times. They are where they are on the list because of the law. As are MSD and whoever else. No precedent is set by how much they get from a failed business being liquidated or re financed. Preferential doesn’t mean you get all your money back .. it’s just the order on a list. It doesn’t alter the facts. In the same way, MSD’s position is what it is because of how they lent money and secured it. The only thing that might change is that HMRC will be less likely to let PAYE debt extend to such large amounts before issuing winding up orders against football companies. 

Nice to see someone else with the same understanding of preferred creditor.

[atherstoneram]

4 hours ago, Sparkle said:

Football is awash with debt but it’s tribal and if the tribes get upset then the leaders get eliminated which is why the leaders try to keep the tribes quiet. The leaders will tell the taxman to do a deal especially when so much money has been mis spent during covid so far by the leaders.

I didn't see the government step in to help clubs out when the grounds were shut, the governments line was sort your own loans out you are getting nothing from us. The leaders didn't seem to hold much sway then.

[Tamworthram]

21 hours ago, Mucker1884 said:

Are any clubs still letting us take tickets on tick?  ?‍♂️

#morefoolthem!  ?

I don’t know how it works but maybe Derby have to purchase them up front but get a refund on any returned due to not being taken up by fans. That’s how traditional sale or return works isn’t it?

[Dean (hick) Saunders]

2 hours ago, RAM1966 said:

Its not a strange message at all, if HMRC do a deal and write off any debt at all they will be setti g a precedence that every other business in the country will want to persue.  

The only kind of deal we may get as a long extended period of time to pay the debt off.  

I think the only way out of this mess is for Morris to gift the stadium as part of the deal, that way the club assets might just about outweigh the debts.

I still cant understand why we didnt apeal the -12....  that would have been done and dusted now....  Had we of won we would of had a reasonable chance of staying up and the clubs value would if been more.  rolling over in the manner we have is quite remarkable....

Firms go into admin all the time unfortunately. I don’t think setting a precedent is the biggest reason for the outcome.