Alan Nixon Breaks Silence on American Billionaire Bid

[atherstoneram]

1 hour ago, Unlucky Alf said:

If they were going to Liquidate us...it would already have happened, Why keep talking?, If HMRC are so bloody obstinate surely they would have sent us to the electric chair by now.

Just a thought

Or the HMRC have told the administrators what they will accept,go away and think about it that's why the supposed day of new owners taking over  has gradually been shoved back from early December (which they originally quoted) until the end of January

[atherstoneram]

4 hours ago, jono said:

The rules for preference are set out in law for different industries at different times. They are where they are on the list because of the law. As are MSD and whoever else. No precedent is set by how much they get from a failed business being liquidated or re financed. Preferential doesn’t mean you get all your money back .. it’s just the order on a list. It doesn’t alter the facts. In the same way, MSD’s position is what it is because of how they lent money and secured it. The only thing that might change is that HMRC will be less likely to let PAYE debt extend to such large amounts before issuing winding up orders against football companies. 

I am fully aware that being a preferential creditor means that you don't get all your money back but it does mean you don't have to accept what is being offered as was the case previously regarding the HMRC.

[Eatonram]

5 minutes ago, atherstoneram said:

Or the HMRC have told the administrators what they will accept,go away and think about it that's why the supposed day of new owners taking over  has gradually been shoved back from early December (which they originally quoted) until the end of January

Possibly but it will be an idle threat if the administrators come back and say….sorry none of the buyers will put that much in, what do you want to do?

[Ram-Alf]

14 minutes ago, atherstoneram said:

Or the HMRC have told the administrators what they will accept,go away and think about it that's why the supposed day of new owners taking over  has gradually been shoved back from early December (which they originally quoted) until the end of January

Or?, Until the Administraters come out and say what's what we're all wanting an opinion on our outcome, This is what message boards do, The high proportion of comments imo are valid, But all hyperthetical until someone signs on the dotted line.

Anyway i'm off to book my Xmas Party irrespective if we go into lockdown again 

[Alty_Ram]

7 minutes ago, Unlucky Alf said:

Or?, Until the Administraters come out and say what's what we're all wanting an opinion on our outcome, This is what message boards do, The high proportion of comments imo are valid, But all hyperthetical until someone signs on the dotted line.

Anyway i'm off to book my Xmas Party irrespective if we go into lockdown again 

Just a 'business meeting' that just happens to have wine and nibbles surely ?

[StapenhillRam]

It is important to remember how this debt to HMRC arose as it is not a case of a simple tax charge arising from the activities of the club.

One element is the Employers National Insurance which is wholly attributable to Derby County and is based on a percentage of its Employees Gross salary. The vast majority of remaining debt is in respect of employees National Insurance contributions and Employees PAYE income tax deducted from the employees salaries each month. In effect it is the difference between the Gross Pay and Nett pay shown on all our payslips.

Effectively in this instance the football club is acting as tax collector on behalf of HMRC with the expectation that these deductions are forwarded to HMRC in due course. Most large companies are obliged to pay these monies in the month following the deduction from employees pay.

[Gritstone Ram]

When is the preferred bidder going to be announced? If there still is one.

[AbuDerbyDave]

4 minutes ago, Gritstone Ram said:

When is the preferred bidder going to be announced? If there still is one.

48 Hours

[Ram-Alf]

8 minutes ago, Gritstone Ram said:

When is the preferred bidder going to be announced? If there still is one.

Once the Tories have finished with their Xmas party investigation

[ilkleyram]

2 hours ago, atherstoneram said:

I am fully aware that being a preferential creditor means that you don't get all your money back but it does mean you don't have to accept what is being offered as was the case previously regarding the HMRC.

I thought that was the case with all creditors, not just the HMRC, and always has been.

As I understand it all the creditors have a vote on what's on offer from any prospective purchaser with the larger creditors' votes counting more than the smaller creditors.  Thus the HMRC's vote is weighted to be more important than DCFCfans' vote because they are owed more. The job of the Administrators is to be able to get to the point of a vote ie having someone prepared to make an offer and then, if there is more than one prospective offer, deciding which one they think will be best for the creditors, including HMRC.  The creditors though can still vote any offer down and decide that liquidation is better

Because, in all administrations, HMRC are often the biggest creditor then they have historically always played a larger role.

If our Administrators have got a number of different and serious bidders then they are doing well.  They would probably want to make sure that any announcement of a preferred bidder is likely to satisfy the creditors (largely in our case HMRC) before the announcement is made.  Given that HMRC will move at their own (slow) pace in negotiations then we will have to be patient if timescales slip

[Betty Swollocks]

I see on twitter that BAWT have said that they have a meeting with the Administrators planned for Weds 15th and are asking supporters to contact them with questions which they will be happy to ask if possible.

[jono]

5 hours ago, RAM1966 said:

Its not a strange message at all, if HMRC do a deal and write off any debt at all they will be setti g a precedence that every other business in the country will want to persue.  

The only kind of deal we may get as a long extended period of time to pay the debt off.  

I think the only way out of this mess is for Morris to gift the stadium as part of the deal, that way the club assets might just about outweigh the debts.

I still cant understand why we didnt apeal the -12....  that would have been done and dusted now....  Had we of won we would of had a reasonable chance of staying up and the clubs value would if been more.  rolling over in the manner we have is quite remarkable....

You make it sound as if writing off debt never happens. The HMRC can’t  have something that just isn’t there, just the same as any other creditor. It’s what limited liability means. It’s what businesses revolve around the world over.
 

The HMRC are in business like anyone else. They will get what they can from the mess without bias, politics, agendas or anything else.
 

Covid probably meant they let the debt grow more  than it would have in another world, but that would have been their decision or under agreement with various authorities from govt to the league. 

[I know nuffin]

Let's just admit nobody knows for sure we need to wait and see what the administrator days once the deal is or is not done.

[StarterForTen]

14 minutes ago, I know nuffin said:

Let's just admit nobody knows for sure we need to wait and see what the administrator days once the deal is or is not done.

What? Take a patient and pragmatic view when we can keep feeding this thread with non-informed opinion so as it can go round-and-round in circles for another 100 pages?

Where's the fun in that?

[RAM1966]

1 hour ago, StapenhillRam said:

It is important to remember how this debt to HMRC arose as it is not a case of a simple tax charge arising from the activities of the club.

One element is the Employers National Insurance which is wholly attributable to Derby County and is based on a percentage of its Employees Gross salary. The vast majority of remaining debt is in respect of employees National Insurance contributions and Employees PAYE income tax deducted from the employees salaries each month. In effect it is the difference between the Gross Pay and Nett pay shown on all our payslips.

Effectively in this instance the football club is acting as tax collector on behalf of HMRC with the expectation that these deductions are forwarded to HMRC in due course. Most large companies are obliged to pay these monies in the month following the deduction from employees pay.

Nobody seemed to bothered when I was highlighting this issue several weeks ago, know it could be tge final nail in the coffin people are niw interested....

[B4ev6is]

6 hours ago, Kathcairns said:

Sorry i meant did you really think that i thought we got them free?

Year I did

Sorry if I got wrong end of the stick.

[i-Ram]

41 minutes ago, ilkleyram said:

I thought that was the case with all creditors, not just the HMRC, and always has been.

As I understand it all the creditors have a vote on what's on offer from any prospective purchaser with the larger creditors' votes counting more than the smaller creditors.  Thus the HMRC's vote is weighted to be more important than DCFCfans' vote because they are owed more. The job of the Administrators is to be able to get to the point of a vote ie having someone prepared to make an offer and then, if there is more than one prospective offer, deciding which one they think will be best for the creditors, including HMRC.  The creditors though can still vote any offer down and decide that liquidation is better

Because, in all administrations, HMRC are often the biggest creditor then they have historically always played a larger role.

If our Administrators have got a number of different and serious bidders then they are doing well.  They would probably want to make sure that any announcement of a preferred bidder is likely to satisfy the creditors (largely in our case HMRC) before the announcement is made.  Given that HMRC will move at their own (slow) pace in negotiations then we will have to be patient if timescales slip

Ilkely old boy my understanding is the rules changed back in 2020. HMRC rank before any other unsecured creditors now, and are on parity with employee wages (which are limited to £800 per employee).

The decision HMRC have to make it seems to me is whether they will get more money from a CVA type arrangement where a new owner agrees a deal with all creditors, or from a liquidation where they will take some priority in a fire sale of assets. 

I have two concerns:

1) They may want to test the water before they make a decision dragging the process into the New Year. i.e. they will want in January to see what offers are actually being made for players to make an informed decision on what value can be secured from that route. All they will have currently is estimated values one would imagine.

2) They may want to make an example of Derby so that other football clubs are on warning that delaying HMRC payments is not a game to play anymore.

Hopefully there is a figure that the Administrators can agree with them relating to new owner investment - @Carneromade a reasonable case a few days back for a £15m settlement (say 50% of debt). I think they will be pushing for more from that route.

I can see why this shitshow is likely to run into mid-late January. 

[i-Ram]

2 hours ago, StapenhillRam said:

It is important to remember how this debt to HMRC arose as it is not a case of a simple tax charge arising from the activities of the club.

One element is the Employers National Insurance which is wholly attributable to Derby County and is based on a percentage of its Employees Gross salary. The vast majority of remaining debt is in respect of employees National Insurance contributions and Employees PAYE income tax deducted from the employees salaries each month. In effect it is the difference between the Gross Pay and Nett pay shown on all our payslips.

Effectively in this instance the football club is acting as tax collector on behalf of HMRC with the expectation that these deductions are forwarded to HMRC in due course. Most large companies are obliged to pay these monies in the month following the deduction from employees pay.

It is the same with VAT. HMRC will only have preferential claims on the amounts where the Club was effectively acting as tax collector on their behalf. They are not preferential for amounts which are not held on behalf of other taxpayers, such as Corporation Tax and employer NICs, nor for any penalties and interest, which may have arisen as a result of late payment, late returns or incorrect returns.

[Tamworthram]

56 minutes ago, RAM1966 said:

Nobody seemed to bothered when I was highlighting this issue several weeks ago, know it could be tge final nail in the coffin people are niw interested....

I’m not sure anybody is any more or less bothered than they were before or that anyone has doubted, from an early stage, that these are the main sources of the HMRC debt accruing. The nature of our business (and years of losses) has meant the other taxes (VAT and corporation tax) were ever going to be as significant.

The increased levels of agitation relates (IMO) to our fears that HMRC may be playing more hard ball than we’d hoped.

[SBW]

17 hours ago, jono said:

I disagree with this “the HMRC won’t accept because it will set a precedent” .. There aren’t any “implications for anyone except us fans. Companies go bust owing HMRC money all the time. The HMRC get as much as they can. That will be either from liquidation .. or from a better offer from a buyer of a refinanced company. No they don’t care about us, or any failed / failing business. It’s just numbers and boxes to fill and tick. They don’t dislike us either. 
 

the admins are only ever going to say .. this is what we’ve got, is it a goer ? 

The HMRC may well then  say to the admins .. see if you can get a bit more from N E W owner,  but they know the score. 
Sooner or later bluffs get called or buyers walk away and they risk being left with much less than new owner was prepared to offer.

There’s no politics here for what is every day business for HMRC. 

I'm not saying they wont accept some form of deal, whether that's a small drop or some form of payment plan.  But i've seen Pistold repeatedly claim they'll 'have' to accept something like £7m (25%).  

 

They're going to want way over that, because that's what they've fought for.  If they fought hard for that, they're going to want substantial returns on the money they are owed, else why would they have fought for it?  It's just logical sense.

 

Considering how long this has been ongoing, you have to assume the admins have said, 'is this a goer' and they've said, 'no'.  Else it would have been done by now.  Why are Kirchner taking so long? The admins wanted it done before Jan initially, if someone is up for it and the deal can be agreed with the creditors, it would be well in motion, but it's not.

 

I can only speculate either HMRC are playing hardball, or maybe Kirchner doesn't quite have the backing to get he deal done, as it's getting worse, not better for a potential buyer.  It's not getting any cheaper, and the club could end up losing significant talent/value.  If the deal could have already been done, the sale of such assets would end up in the club/owners's coffers, but now it will end up just going towards existing debt.

 

All smells very much like HMRC aren't wanting to budge, considering the deal they fought hard for as creditors.