BaaLocks Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 15 minutes ago, Gaspode said: Far more likely that the EFL are threatening to contnue to punish us in future seasons if we don't accept the admin charge and a disproportionate points penalty for FFP. Any new owner would want a fresh start and be able to manage without one hand (or more likely both hands) tied behind their back by an EFL 'business plan'. Suspect 21 points (if true aand I wouldn't trust a jouno to know the facts - or tell the truth if they did) is the least the EFL will accept to leave a new owner in peace and wipe the slate clean for future years.... I'd struggle to think of any Derby fan who would want to do this as death by a thousand points deductions. There is no logical reason, only solution is to take it all, get the slate cleared and move on. Yes, we will have to drop down to League One, yes it is not guaranteed we will bounce back immediately but Wolves, Leeds, Coventry, Southampton and others have shown you can rebuild from that position. Many will quote Sunderland, Portsmouth, Bolton and Sheff Wed but they will all come back in time - as will we. Kathcairns, IslandExile, r_wilcockson and 3 others 3 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May Contain Nuts Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 (edited) Isn't the suggestion that even with the 21 points the EFL will still refuse to wipe the slate clean and that they will still insist on a business plan for the next 2 years? I can't remember now but have other clubs faced a penalty for a set period and effectively had the counter reset? Whereas with us people are suggesting the 'deal' is to stop them deducting points for breaches in the seasons following the ones we were investigated for? Something doesn't make sense, but it could just be my memory failing me or me having read something incorrectly. Edited November 12, 2021 by Coconut's Beard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
24Charlie Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 7 minutes ago, BaaLocks said: I'd struggle to think of any Derby fan who would want to do this as death by a thousand points deductions. There is no logical reason, only solution is to take it all, get the slate cleared and move on. Yes, we will have to drop down to League One, yes it is not guaranteed we will bounce back immediately but Wolves, Leeds, Coventry, Southampton and others have shown you can rebuild from that position. Many will quote Sunderland, Portsmouth, Bolton and Sheff Wed but they will all come back in time - as will we. Leicester of course just continued to cheat and did very well out of it. Avoiding any points deductions. A club now lorded as the plucky little underdog who made it big. A truly detestable club. Their bin robbing fans refuse to acknowledge the complete cheating bastary employed in their rise from div 3. Rammeister, Ellafella, Kathcairns and 13 others 2 12 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodley Ram Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 6 minutes ago, Coconut's Beard said: Isn't the suggestion that even with the 21 points the EFL will still refuse to wipe the slate clean and that they will still insist on a business plan for the next 2 years? I can't remember now but have other clubs faced a penalty for a set period and effectively had the counter reset? Whereas with us people are suggesting the 'deal' is to stop them deducting points for breaches in the seasons following the ones we were investigated for? Something doesn't make sense, but it could just be my memory failing me or me having read something incorrectly. I think the business plan is a standard thing to ensure clubs behave appropriately BathRam72 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MackworthRamIsGod Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 1 minute ago, Woodley Ram said: I think the business plan is a standard thing to ensure clubs behave appropriately In our situation I'm just very nervous the EFL will be doing everything to ensure we can't buy our way back, such as quashing a wage cap in Feb of this year and then all of a sudden making claims they want to reinstate it again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glyn1957 Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 Isnt the coercion of a person or an entity i.e DCFC a form of blackmail ,being told take this or we do this to you seems very much like it to me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamworthram Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 12 minutes ago, Woodley Ram said: I think the business plan is a standard thing to ensure clubs behave appropriately In my experience, business plans are rarely, if ever, stuck to with much accuracy and are sometimes a complete work of fiction (similar to cash flow forecasts). I guess the difference here is can/will the the EFL impose further sanctions if we stray too far from what we said we’d do in the plan? Crewton and RadioactiveWaste 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaspode Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 24 minutes ago, Coconut's Beard said: Isn't the suggestion that even with the 21 points the EFL will still refuse to wipe the slate clean and that they will still insist on a business plan for the next 2 years? I can't remember now but have other clubs faced a penalty for a set period and effectively had the counter reset? Whereas with us people are suggesting the 'deal' is to stop them deducting points for breaches in the seasons following the ones we were investigated for? Something doesn't make sense, but it could just be my memory failing me or me having read something incorrectly. That's certainly what is supposed to happen, but I was suggesting that maybe the administrators have agreed to accept a more severe punishment at this point in order for us to start afresh, There's no logic to dropping the appeal unless they get something back in return.... RadioactiveWaste 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaspode Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 3 minutes ago, Tamworthram said: In my experience, business plans are rarely, if ever, stuck to with much accuracy and are sometimes a complete work of fiction (similar to cash flow forecasts). I guess the difference here is can/will the the EFL impose further sanctions if we stray too far from what we said we’d do in the plan? Wasn't that pretty much what Brum did? - they agreed a business plan and then ignored it which cost them another points deduction..... Tamworthram and r_wilcockson 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaaLocks Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 20 minutes ago, 24Charlie said: Leicester of course just continued to cheat and did very well out of it. Avoiding any points deductions. A club now lorded as the plucky little underdog who made it big. A truly detestable club. Their bin robbing fans refuse to acknowledge the complete cheating bastary employed in their rise from div 3. And if that option was open to Derby we'd take it also but the truth is we are at the wrong end of the table. Avoiding the points deduction arguably benefits the local businesses who suffer from the club going into administration as they can return to profitability quicker than being kicked down the divisions like we are going to have to tolerate. So the local baker, car park, caterer or taxi firm will benefit more from a club that slipped into the top flight more quickly than one that got relegated down to League One. We're only bitter (and we are, no debate) coz we got caught at a time when we could be punished and any sense of local pride we had from never having stiffed local businesses for our own chance to reset the clocks is about to be taken away from us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May Contain Nuts Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 4 minutes ago, Gaspode said: That's certainly what is supposed to happen, but I was suggesting that maybe the administrators have agreed to accept a more severe punishment at this point in order for us to start afresh, There's no logic to dropping the appeal unless they get something back in return.... What seems logical seems to have gone completely out the window throughout the whole process, right from the day we were first charged. While I hope you're correct I can't really see it. kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong and Indy 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodley Ram Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 24 minutes ago, Tamworthram said: In my experience, business plans are rarely, if ever, stuck to with much accuracy and are sometimes a complete work of fiction (similar to cash flow forecasts). I guess the difference here is can/will the the EFL impose further sanctions if we stray too far from what we said we’d do in the plan? They had a go at Birmingham when they didn't follow theirs, not sure what the outcome was. Business plans and strategies should always be flexible. I guess if we want to use some of that flexibility we need to discuss it with them first. I would hope that it would be based on our projected operating income and current and projected liabilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarterForTen Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 2 hours ago, MackworthRamIsGod said: I think the administrators were using the appeal as a bargaining chip. I did expect the bargaining chip to result in less points, but clearly the EFL are playing hard ball. So, maybe the deal on the table from us is, let the new buyer spend in January and we drop the appeal and accept the penalty. If its true Kirchner is the only bidder and is willing to buy us regardless then may as well take the hit and start a fresh. I have just had a similar thought too. Perhaps the appeal was for leverage on the business plan restrictions? If the Administrators (and new owners) had accepted that a -21 point penalty was the most likely outcome then realistically this season is a write-off and it's far more important to start the rebuild with as much headroom as possible. That might mean standard SCMP restrictions in place for League One, which would give us a very decent playing budget to work to. Pure conjecture of course, but that does make a lot of sense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcnram Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 54 minutes ago, 24Charlie said: Leicester of course just continued to cheat and did very well out of it. Avoiding any points deductions. A club now lorded as the plucky little underdog who made it big. A truly detestable club. Their bin robbing fans refuse to acknowledge the complete cheating bastary employed in their rise from div 3. I wouldn't say they are detestable. They are a well run club with superb owners and only did what any club would have done at the time. ossieram, Reggie Greenwood and RadioactiveWaste 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crewton Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 40 minutes ago, Woodley Ram said: They had a go at Birmingham when they didn't follow theirs, not sure what the outcome was. Business plans and strategies should always be flexible. I guess if we want to use some of that flexibility we need to discuss it with them first. I would hope that it would be based on our projected operating income and current and projected liabilities. Basically, Brum avoided another PD because the Tribunal decided that the breach of the BP wasn't wilfull - it was to do with a potential transfer of Che Adams I think. RadioactiveWaste 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beetle Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 (edited) Well ran? Leicester have lost £90m in the last two years. How can they be well ran? When the owner decides he no longer wants to keep paying that to keep the club running (because it will happen at some point), as ours now has, are they still well ran? Edited November 12, 2021 by Beetle MuespachRam, Premier ram, Kathcairns and 1 other 2 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyler Durden Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 26 minutes ago, Beetle said: Well ran? Leicester have lost £90m in the last two years. How can they be well ran? When the owner decides he no longer wants to keep paying that to keep the club running (because it will happen at some point), as ours now has, are they still well ran? When it comes to that point then surely the owner will just sell the club rather than dump it into administration? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beetle Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 What happens if no one wants to buy the club like the situation we found ourselves in? How long do they keep servicing the debt for? The reality is that most football teams are not well ran. I did not think we were all that bad until Morris decided to pull the plug - I just thought we were going through a reset period within FFP and Morris would fund another go at promotion in a couple of years when we have FFP leeway. I was convinced second time round with a local chairman and supporter, and lessons learned, we would do it. We'd have a couple of years watching experienced players but also the new young core coming though - Knight, Buchanan, Bird, Stretton, Ebosele etc... What do we expect the next owner to do? If they have a crack at promotion and lose a load of money what will they do? If they run us sustainably we simply won't get out of the division. ariotofmyown 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RadioactiveWaste Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 45 minutes ago, Crewton said: Basically, Brum avoided another PD because the Tribunal decided that the breach of the BP wasn't wilfull - it was to do with a potential transfer of Che Adams I think. I think it was far worse than that, Brum deviated from the business plan by selling Che Adams for what he was worth and not at the first possible opportunity. Think Brum won the hearing and the EFL appealed and eventually they got a letter saying "the EFL were right" but no actual sanction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellafella Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 2 hours ago, 24Charlie said: Leicester of course just continued to cheat and did very well out of it. Avoiding any points deductions. A club now lorded as the plucky little underdog who made it big. A truly detestable club. Their bin robbing fans refuse to acknowledge the complete cheating bastary employed in their rise from div 3. Absolutely. I vomited when Shearer said " "pluck-ee Les-ta" are a fine example of hoo-ta run a football club" after their Fa Cup victory ? Phoenix, Ruud Aralliss, Betty Swollocks and 3 others 1 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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