Derby finally accept 21 point deduction.

[Tyler Durden]

Find it a bit funny reading some of the comments about the adminstrators not doing their job properly or not having the club's best interests at heart.

Kind of overlooking the point that the adminstrators only came into the club as a certain person decided to put the club into administration otherwise they wouldn't be anywhere near us in the first place.

Weird logic. 

[Chris_D]

32 minutes ago, Indy said:

He’s basing it on the opinion of qualified auditors and an independent review by the accountancy regulator who said it was compliant. 
 

The opinion of the EFL and the appeals panel (which had no accountant on it) was that it wasn’t compliant. 
 

Anyway - not much we can do about it now. EFL have got their narrative out that we cheated and we just need to figure out what we can and can’t do going forward. 

Glad you agree it is opinions.  The only mention of the ICAEW i can see is related to them reviewing an audit file. There is nothing to suggest they accepted the amortisation methodology (as one of our many accounting policies) or looked at it before it was implemented/post implementation as to FRS 102 compliance, and I can't see they have ever come to say they did unless you can demonstrate their statement to that effect?  They seem to have reviewed the audit file prepared by SC for one year where the new amortisation policy was in place (I.e. reviewed whether SC had properly audited the club in that year as against it's written policies, the ICAEW have not been shown to have reviewed the club's underlying accounting policies vis FRS 102). 

Here is what I think people are getting confused by from the DC at para 50 as I can't find anything else: "The fact that Smith Cooper’s audit file for a financial year since the change in amortisation policy has occurred has been picked for review by the ICAEW and approved as compliant."

There seems to be a lot of people basing their entire opinion on the DC decision/our own opinion as a club about our own policy and that of our accountants/auditors (maybe not?), whereas the LAP decided against all of them based on further evidence, and I would suggest two QCs and Lord Dyson, who sat as a Justice on the Supreme Court, are very able to form a proper opinion and come to a sound judgment on the issue without needing to be accountants - without trying to be condescending, it's what judges do, weigh up the evidence and then apply the law.  It's how the court system in England and Wales works - judges are not accountants and hear accountancy based cases all the time (as well as everything else they hear on which they are not 'qualified' experts).

Edited November 16, 2021 by Chris_D

[Chris_D]

24 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

I'm basing my opinon on being a qualified accountant who was an auditor for the best part of 15 years.

You are basing on your opinion on unsubstantiated nonesense from people who clearly have no, or little, understanding of Financial Reporting Standards.

 

A qualified accountant who was totally independent of the matter being discussed?  And to dismiss three very experienced and qualified lawyers like this is, frankly, ridiculous.

[Sparkle]

So then we have been Bullied into accepting this that much is clear ( the administrators) 

I believe we had a very good case in regards to the administration appeal and the EFL knew it and wanted it not to go ahead as other clubs would follow.

the EFL have threatened not to sort everything out and wanted to continue to strangle the club 

the EFL wanted to show others that they could strangle the sporting life out of a football club and enhance the lack of sporting integrity in the league - what complete poo show 

[duncanjwitham]

4 minutes ago, Chris_D said:

A qualified accountant who was totally independent of the matter being discussed?  

Like the one on the DC? A 30+ year experienced forensic accountant?

[Mucker1884]

My overriding thought, having now fully caught up with this thread, and the linked pages throughout today's web releases, is that had they been on sale from tomorrow, I'd join the queue, as I am now 100% ready to renew, for '22.

 

 

*Oooh... that kind o' rhymes!
Needs some work... Let's try...

 

After nigh on two years, of absolute poo,
I'm ready, I'm raring, so how about you?
Lets commit, let's pledge, let us all renew,
Bring it on.  Fear no more.  Here's to twenty twenty two!

 

 

...Shame we're not heading to L2, instead of L1... We'd be talking Pulitzer prize, right now!  ? 

 

[Leeds Ram]

I for one hope I never hear the name Me* Mo**is again quite honestly. The damage he's reaped upon the club is close to  incomprehensible and he deserves to be held in nothing but utter utter contempt by everyone associated with the club. The EFL have buried us during this process for the foreseeable future and whilst their conduct has not been befitting of a governing body we gave them the ammunition to do it. I'm not shocked nor particularly bothered by the additional 9 points, besides some people's dewy eyed unrealistic optimism we only had the smallest hope of staying up anyway. Now that's been totally taken away so at least we can be completely realistic about what is going to happen this season. 

Edited November 16, 2021 by Leeds Ram

[i-Ram]

@Ghost of Clough

You seem to be on the ball accounts wise. Based on the broadbrush figures revealed today, are you able to give any indication of what our overspend position would have been for 2018/19, 2019/20 and 2020/21 if we had continued to use the policy that Pearce & Co. committed us to in 2015/16?  Presumably it would have been a similar net overspend over the 3 years, but different in terms of timings. In particular I am wondering what 2018/19 might have looked like if we had 'carried on'?

[Ruud Aralliss]

1 hour ago, Duracell said:

1) How much of the above will be sorted before January? Because if it's not, there could be a firesale of not just the first team, but all the very clearly talented U23s who could be the key to our return to this league. If they go, then we'll be scrambling around to field a team that can stay up in League One next year, let alone any talk of promotion. And perhaps a tad more pertinently;

2) Are we going to exist????????????????*

*I can't believe how many fans are not obsessively stressed by this question.

Point 1. I think a lot of posters share your concerns here and it is being discussed.

Point 2. I think a lot of posters share your concern here, but are keeping this worry locked away at the back of their minds.  The proverbial Elephant in the room.  It’s too depressing to think about, never mind talk about.

[Arsene Titman]

https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/revealed-full-extent-major-financial-6214992

Apologies if this has already been posted elsewhere but the restrictions being placed on the club just reek of bloody mindedness and vindictiveness. There is a salary cap for next season, a limit of 25 professionals, and  no loan or transfer fees to be paid. The salary for each  new signed will be capped and the amount has to be agreed by the EFL. Talk about sticking the boot in.

Edited November 16, 2021 by Arsene Titman
Extra info

[hintonsboots]

These limitations are in place until the end of the 2021-22 season.

[Tamworthram]

56 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

No negotiations. 

Charge us and let it be heard by an Independent Disciplinary Commission.

Negotiations were only undertaken as the EFL knew we were staring down the barrel.

I just think there are too many unknowns to say the administrators did or didn’t have the clubs best interests/only hope in mind.

Maybe a sale needs to be secured within a certain period of time if the club was to survive and avoid liquidation. Perhaps an IDC would have taken the conclusion of any purchase beyond that date. I would imagine new owners have come to terms, and based their offer, on us playing in league 1 next season. I doubt they’d want a further 9/12 point deduction hanging around and possibly being delayed until next season.

[G STAR RAM]

34 minutes ago, Chris_D said:

A qualified accountant who was totally independent of the matter being discussed?  And to dismiss three very experienced and qualified lawyers like this is, frankly, ridiculous.

Yes I am completely independent of the matter being discussed. 

I'll go and watch Derby no matter what division they are in, makes no odds to me. Some new grounds to go next season, Saturday 3pm kick offs. Decision does not really affect anything for me.

Anyway, back to the point...I raised my concerns, not over the use of the accounting policy but over the residual values being applied to players, they appeared too high from day 1. But that is an accouting estimate that is there to be challenged by the auditors, it appears they were comfortable with the values and methodology used.

If you think a qualified lawyer is in a better position to rule on accounting matters than a qualified accountant, qualified auditors and the ICAEW, then I'd suggest it might not be me that is being ridiculous. 

[G STAR RAM]

5 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

I just think there are too many unknowns to say the administrators did or didn’t have the clubs best interests/only hope in mind.

Maybe a sale needs to be secured within a certain period of time if the club was to survive and avoid liquidation. Perhaps an IDC would have taken the conclusion of any purchase beyond that date. I would imagine new owners have come to terms, and based their offer, on us playing in league 1 next season. I doubt they’d want a further 9/12 point deduction hanging around and possibly being delayed until next season.

If the EFL were acting in the interests of one of its member clubs they would have expadited the case, if the alternative was the club going into liquidation. 

[Ilsonram12]

To the mathematics on here, what does the wage roughly equate to on average with that restriction?

[hintonsboots]

Once the club is sold, the new owners will be getting a major asset for a very competitive price, as long as Mel plays ball with the remaining pieces of the deal, to prove that he at least had some sort of plan in place when he decided to cut the cord.

Its a big project for the incoming owners, but with good player recruitment linked to our huge fanbase of loyal supporters, I can see us winning a lot of games in League 1, the academy grads should excel at that level, now they have had Championship experience.

The only question is who would you go for if Wazza jumps ship ?

Ryan Lowe, Ian Evatt or a final hurrah for Colin.

[angieram]

2 hours ago, LeedsCityRam said:

As if it wasn't bad enough agreeing a penalty for decisions that were signed off by the EFL previously & not explicitly prohibited under their regulations, we also have to agree to a business plan that means we have no hope of recruiting a squad that would have any prayer of overcoming a 21 point penalty. No transfer fee or loan fee this season even if we're taken over by a responsible new owner with significant funds? How on earth is that fair?

There is so much in that EFL statement that would not stand up in a court of law. Its absolutely typical Derby County luck that our previous owner was not in a position to drag these charlatans to court to justify a) their retrospective revision in opinion & b) the punitive 'guilty until proven innocent' transfer embargo & dragging out of 'disciplinary processes' that we've lived under for the past 2 years

Would be fascinated to know how EFL 'persuaded' Quantuma to accept the points penalty & business plan - must have related to sale of the club. Again with funds, any actions borne out of bad faith could have been overcome with an injunction.

I'd like to say this at least gives us some clarity at last but there's still HMRC, Morris' ownership of PP & a takeover still to sort. What a mess.

 

Surely this can't be true? That would be blackmail!

[Kingpin]

4 minutes ago, hintonsboots said:

Colin

????

[LazloW]

Predictions of 21 points in total have been going around for ages. I’d assumed that the reason for the delay was that DCFC was playing hardball and had a good case for reducing the FFP points deduction and/or were in a good position re: the appeal on the administration points deduction. As that obviously appears to have been complete pie in the sky, does anybody know why it’s taken so long to basically confirm what was originally suggested (if this has been answered already, sorry / not gone through the whole thread and have actually had to do some work today so not able to be online much!).

Its the hope that kills you, I suppose.

Still, win 10 on the trot and we can still get out of this (what did I just say a little hope?)

[G STAR RAM]

11 minutes ago, Ilsonram12 said:

To the mathematics on here, what does the wage roughly equate to on average with that restriction?

Minimum wage