Derby finally accept 21 point deduction.

[vonwright]

15 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

£9m match day and £7m commercial/hospitality per annum. Plus other little bits such as programmes, merchandise, etc. Let's estimate total per annum at £16.5m

9 games also without fans in 19/20 (one fifth of a season). £16.5m + 20% =£19.8m

Next.

What are you including in commercial and hospitality here? Usually that would include sponsorship and merchandise, which are not 'small bits' and were not wiped out by COVID. Are you in any way considering offsetting income from people watching in alternative ways, ie online? 

In any case, say it was £20m if you like. My point was that even if this figure is correct, it needs to be looked at in context: the enormous losses Mel absorbed over multiple seasons, and the total £60m debts we apparently now have. The COVID loan that we were apparently cruelly denied by an EFL hell bent on destroying us was capped at £8.3m. That's roughly the sum we reportedly owe Cocu and his sidekicks for sacking them (in the middle of the pandemic).

Clearly a number of people need to believe that we are a victimised club, led by a visionary businessman whose masterplan of sustainable success was cruelly derailed by a combination of COVID and the evil Baron Gibson and his EFL minions. And I say that's wishful thinking, as the accounts we still have to publish for 2018/19 onwards will probably confirm. I trust the administrators are doing their best to get us back on track. 

Anyway I realise this is an unpopular view so I'm out. 

[i-Ram]

26 minutes ago, vonwright said:

What are you including in commercial and hospitality here? Usually that would include sponsorship and merchandise, which are not 'small bits' and were not wiped out by COVID. Are you in any way considering offsetting income from people watching in alternative ways, ie online? 

In any case, say it was £20m if you like. My point was that even if this figure is correct, it needs to be looked at in context: the enormous losses Mel absorbed over multiple seasons, and the total £60m debts we apparently now have. The COVID loan that we were apparently cruelly denied by an EFL hell bent on destroying us was capped at £8.3m. That's roughly the sum we reportedly owe Cocu and his sidekicks for sacking them (in the middle of the pandemic).

Clearly a number of people need to believe that we are a victimised club, led by a visionary businessman whose masterplan of sustainable success was cruelly derailed by a combination of COVID and the evil Baron Gibson and his EFL minions. And I say that's wishful thinking, as the accounts we still have to publish for 2018/19 onwards will probably confirm. I trust the administrators are doing their best to get us back on track. 

Anyway I realise this is an unpopular view so I'm out. 

I like your posts.  I would only be reading ‘the EFL killed my kitten’ posts otherwise.

[uttoxram75]

10 minutes ago, i-Ram said:

I like your posts.  I would only be reading ‘the EFL killed my kitten’ posts otherwise.

For me, the EFL became the bad guys when they used the words "disappointed" and "regrettable" when one of their attempts to punish us failed. Its a governing body and should be ran as such, the use of such language turned it into a witch hunt imo.

None of that takes any blame from Mel, it just makes the EFL look like they are not bothered about the actual rules and whether we have broken them, but rather they want to punish us because we appear to have broken the rules and are under pressure from powerful lobbying from outside their organisation.

Plus I'm biased. ???

[Sparkle]

2 hours ago, PistoldPete said:

Why would an IDC not agree with an agreed decision? 

We could be insisting on a 32 point deduction and the EFL saying ok that’s great whilst Reading fc get nine points for only spending way more than us 

[2tups]

39 minutes ago, uttoxram75 said:

For me, the EFL became the bad guys when they used the words "disappointed" and "regrettable" when one of their attempts to punish us failed. Its a governing body and should be ran as such, the use of such language turned it into a witch hunt imo.

None of that takes any blame from Mel, it just makes the EFL look like they are not bothered about the actual rules and whether we have broken them, but rather they want to punish us because we appear to have broken the rules and are under pressure from powerful lobbying from outside their organisation.

Plus I'm biased. ???

Spot on, but……It’s Friday night…and this is far too reasonable. Have they turned all the pubs in Utch into Neverspoons ? 

[uttoxram75]

7 minutes ago, 2tups said:

Spot on, but……It’s Friday night…and this is far too reasonable. Have they turned all the pubs in Utch into Neverspoons ? 

Spoons have tried to kill all the pubs in Utch but fortunately there is an annoying number of working class pishheads that still prefer to drink in the 400 year old pubs that the orange faced, tax dodging, Boris-lover wishes to close down. ?

[2tups]

12 minutes ago, uttoxram75 said:

Spoons have tried to kill all the pubs in Utch but fortunately there is an annoying number of working class pishheads that still prefer to drink in the 400 year old pubs that the orange faced, tax dodging, Boris-lover wishes to close down. ?

As ever, you provide hope in troubled times. ??‍☠️?

[Ghost of Clough]

2 hours ago, vonwright said:

What are you including in commercial and hospitality here? Usually that would include sponsorship and merchandise, which are not 'small bits' and were not wiped out by COVID. Are you in any way considering offsetting income from people watching in alternative ways, ie online? 

Have you even looked at the accounts? Sponsorship, merchandise, etc fall under different categories from commercial and hospitality activities.

[PistoldPete]

9 hours ago, vonwright said:

What are you including in commercial and hospitality here? Usually that would include sponsorship and merchandise, which are not 'small bits' and were not wiped out by COVID. Are you in any way considering offsetting income from people watching in alternative ways, ie online? 

In any case, say it was £20m if you like. My point was that even if this figure is correct, it needs to be looked at in context: the enormous losses Mel absorbed over multiple seasons, and the total £60m debts we apparently now have. The COVID loan that we were apparently cruelly denied by an EFL hell bent on destroying us was capped at £8.3m. That's roughly the sum we reportedly owe Cocu and his sidekicks for sacking them (in the middle of the pandemic).

Clearly a number of people need to believe that we are a victimised club, led by a visionary businessman whose masterplan of sustainable success was cruelly derailed by a combination of COVID and the evil Baron Gibson and his EFL minions. And I say that's wishful thinking, as the accounts we still have to publish for 2018/19 onwards will probably confirm. I trust the administrators are doing their best to get us back on track. 

Anyway I realise this is an unpopular view so I'm out. 

I don't say £20 million is the loss to Derby County due to COVID. I say that is the lost revenue during the period until the stadium reopened to fans in august 2021. Add on lost revenue for 2021-22 of maybe another £5 million to £10 million due to vulnerable fans staying away, loss of Corporate jollies, events  and discretionary hospitality etc.

Then how much more could we have got for Jayden Bogle at pre COVID valuations, maybe £5 million more. Or Morgan Whittaker maybe £2 million more. Or players who left at  end of contracts for nothing because we couldn't afford to keep them.

I don't really want to think about the effects on player valuations of people who are still at the club, as I hope we don't find out in January. But even if you ignore the effect of COVID on the saleability of the club and the threat to the club's very existence, you are probably talking, with a further significant loss due to player valuations plunging,  at total losses due to COVID close to maybe 80% to 90% of the £60 million of hard debt we are reported to have.

   

Edited November 13, 2021 by PistoldPete

[Dimmu]

I feel it sensible to stop fighting at this point, some good decision making from Quantuma. Taking the full punishment now makes sense. We will get some sort of points deduction anyway and with the current team, manager and points haul is too risky to keep on fighting and perhaps to have another points deduction in League One.

If we would have won around 4 games more (which we easily could), the odds against relegation would be very different and then we should keep on fighting. But as the season has gone as it has, I think they are right to clean the slate now and start with the new owner(s) next season. 

Also, I'd add that next summer is perhaps the best possible time to rebuild the team. We are not the only cash strapped club and there'll be abundance of Championship level players free next summer. We should have a decent pulling power so I'm not really worried about that. 

Take the slap and get the new owners in. That's the priority.

[PistoldPete]

7 minutes ago, Dimmu said:

I feel it sensible to stop fighting at this point, some good decision making from Quantuma. Taking the full punishment now makes sense. We will get some sort of points deduction anyway and with the current team, manager and points haul is too risky to keep on fighting and perhaps to have another points deduction in League One.

If we would have won around 4 games more (which we easily could), the odds against relegation would be very different and then we should keep on fighting. But as the season has gone as it has, I think they are right to clean the slate now and start with the new owner(s) next season. 

Also, I'd add that next summer is perhaps the best possible time to rebuild the team. We are not the only cash strapped club and there'll be abundance of Championship level players free next summer. We should have a decent pulling power so I'm not really worried about that. 

Take the slap and get the new owners in. That's the priority.

I think we are all agreed whatever the differences of opinion, that the priority is to get new owners in. Will we be able to get new players in the summer or will we still be under embargo? That maybe one of the sticking points with EFL. 

[FindernRam]

14 hours ago, Oldben said:

you would be willing to pay whatever it takes to guarantee promotion from League One to the Championship.

Doesn't this sound very familiar! Rich owner prepared to spend big to gamble on promotion. Mel Mk II just a lower start point.

[Tamworthram]

I keep clinging to the hope that the EFL are so worried, with justification, that if won the appeal against the 12 points deduction it would either open the floodgates for other clubs to go into administration or they’d have to change the rules after our case and we’d have been seen to have got away with it. I hoping they’re looking to avoid either of these scenarios by getting us to drop our appeal in exchange for a deal on the potential additional points deduction.

As every day passes, and new rumours/tweets emerge, my hope fades.

[LazloW]

Am I allowed to believe both that Mel Morris is ultimately to blame for taking us into administration, that he presumably signed off on our approach to finances and accounting which got us into trouble and if he hadn’t spent big sums of cash at the behest of his managers (ie not supported them) then we wouldn’t be in the mess we are in… AND… that the EFL have acted dishonesty, acted retrospectively against all normal rules of natural justice, have sought to block or stymie every single attempt for us to get out of the mess and place additional barriers in our way, have maliciously not used any discretion in how they have interpreted the rules or punishment and are one gigantic pile of excrement?

I mean, there’s plenty of blame to go around, I don’t think we need to be polarised about it or ‘take sides’.

[Ram-Alf]

12 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

I keep clinging to the hope that the EFL are so worried, with justification, that if won the appeal against the 12 points deduction it would either open the floodgates for other clubs to go into administration or they’d have to change the rules after our case and we’d have been seen to have got away with it. I hoping they’re looking to avoid either of these scenarios by getting us to drop our appeal in exchange for a deal on the potential additional points deduction.

 

This was/is my hope, Being drip fed "leaks", It's as bad as waiting for an Ariva bus arriving on time, You know ones on it's way...but when.

[Woodley Ram]

12 hours ago, vonwright said:

What are you including in commercial and hospitality here? Usually that would include sponsorship and merchandise, which are not 'small bits' and were not wiped out by COVID. Are you in any way considering offsetting income from people watching in alternative ways, ie online? 

In any case, say it was £20m if you like. My point was that even if this figure is correct, it needs to be looked at in context: the enormous losses Mel absorbed over multiple seasons, and the total £60m debts we apparently now have. The COVID loan that we were apparently cruelly denied by an EFL hell bent on destroying us was capped at £8.3m. That's roughly the sum we reportedly owe Cocu and his sidekicks for sacking them (in the middle of the pandemic).

Clearly a number of people need to believe that we are a victimised club, led by a visionary businessman whose masterplan of sustainable success was cruelly derailed by a combination of COVID and the evil Baron Gibson and his EFL minions. And I say that's wishful thinking, as the accounts we still have to publish for 2018/19 onwards will probably confirm. I trust the administrators are doing their best to get us back on track. 

Anyway I realise this is an unpopular view so I'm out. 

Might be unpopular but factual. There is no doubt that we lost a significant sum during Covid but we were already on a slippery slop.  Yes Covid  exacerbated administration but unless drastic action was taken by Mel and Pearce that's where we were heading. The signing of players for £10m and £4m  sort of indicates that the they could not make those hard decisions and still wanted the dream of the prem.

We needed to take stock a couple of years ago and put in place a sustainable business plan, I don't think we did and it took an embargo for us to dramatically cut our costs

[Ghost of Clough]

27 minutes ago, LazloW said:

Am I allowed to believe both that Mel Morris is ultimately to blame for taking us into administration, that he presumably signed off on our approach to finances and accounting which got us into trouble and if he hadn’t spent big sums of cash at the behest of his managers (ie not supported them) then we wouldn’t be in the mess we are in… AND… that the EFL have acted dishonesty, acted retrospectively against all normal rules of natural justice, have sought to block or stymie every single attempt for us to get out of the mess and place additional barriers in our way, have maliciously not used any discretion in how they have interpreted the rules or punishment and are one gigantic pile of excrement?

I mean, there’s plenty of blame to go around, I don’t think we need to be polarised about it or ‘take sides’.

Everything appeared fine and dandy until the double charge in January 2020, which resulted in a string of embargoes and failed takeovers.

We were charged for overvaluing the stadium. The verdict concluded that we could have actually sold it for a little bit more.

We were also charged with submitting non-compliant accounts based on the amortisation policy. Accounts deemed compliant by the CFO (at the time), auditors, the ICAEW and the IDC... but not by the EFL who by their own admission have no accounting experts, a professor with no real life experience, and an arbitration panel with no accountants on it.

[Tyler Durden]

37 minutes ago, LazloW said:

Am I allowed to believe both that Mel Morris is ultimately to blame for taking us into administration, that he presumably signed off on our approach to finances and accounting which got us into trouble and if he hadn’t spent big sums of cash at the behest of his managers (ie not supported them) then we wouldn’t be in the mess we are in… AND… that the EFL have acted dishonesty, acted retrospectively against all normal rules of natural justice, have sought to block or stymie every single attempt for us to get out of the mess and place additional barriers in our way, have maliciously not used any discretion in how they have interpreted the rules or punishment and are one gigantic pile of excrement?

I mean, there’s plenty of blame to go around, I don’t think we need to be polarised about it or ‘take sides’.

Of course you can as it's your opinion just the same as anyone elses on here.

Tend not to post on this thread anymore as it is quite evident that exactly as you say some posters views regarding "blame" are extremely polarised or entrenched is probably the best descriptor so is pretty futile trying to debate or have a coherent discussion so best to stay out of it. 

[PistoldPete]

9 minutes ago, Woodley Ram said:

Might be unpopular but factual. There is no doubt that we lost a significant sum during Covid but we were already on a slippery slop.  Yes Covid  exacerbated administration but unless drastic action was taken by Mel and Pearce that's where we were heading. The signing of players for £10m and £4m  sort of indicates that the they could not make those hard decisions and still wanted the dream of the prem.

We needed to take stock a couple of years ago and put in place a sustainable business plan, I don't think we did and it took an embargo for us to dramatically cut our costs

The signing of the two Polish players has still been balanced by transfer fees incoming over the past two years that are higher and definitely didn’t mean we were headed for admin 
 

I cannot defend the silly wages that we were paid at the height of our spending. Paying £2m a year in wages to workaday Championship players is just silly.

It was the wAge bill that caused the big losses … and that has come down massively. 
 

So all fine to criticise Mel for his poor judgement in spending money. But that didn’t cause us to go into admin.

[PistoldPete]

5 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

Of course you can as it's your opinion just the same as anyone elses on here.

Tend not to post on this thread anymore as it is quite evident that exactly as you say some posters views regarding "blame" are extremely polarised or entrenched is probably the best descriptor so is pretty futile trying to debate or have a coherent discussion so best to stay out of it. 

Hello Mr Pot. What Laziow has just described is almost exactly what I think too.

except that it is not technically correct to say that Mel Morris historic overspending has caused admin. It may be a contributory factor but that is all…and that is what the Wigan verdict said too.

Edited November 13, 2021 by PistoldPete