Wayne Rooney

[Carnero]

13 minutes ago, Ken Tram said:

Thanks for the Rooney-period "form" table.

And wow! I didn't expect the Rooney's Derby to be as high as that - expecting fourth from bottom.

Are we allowed to praise Rooney for getting better results than five other teams during the period that he was in charge? 

Or am I just being too insensitive to everyone?

(I was surprised though. I had the impression that he's been a total failure!)

We did win 6 out of 8 early on in his tenure, but since the injury to Bielik we've gone into an absolute tailspin!

[Carnero]

@Ken Tram... tailspin!

 

[Ken Tram]

52 minutes ago, Carnero said:

 

 

31 minutes ago, Van der MoodHoover said:

Wazza was appointed in sole charge on a temporary contract, then following good results got the permanent role. 

So I think there are material discontinuities in the data in those discrete periods. 

What are the key dates (or material discontinuities, or temporary contracts) that are relevant?

Maybe we could look at those periods separately.

And I've seen the post showing our "form" being  bottom of the table in recent games.

But, every other manager is judged on the performance of all of the games for which they were in charge, tending to be the entire season. And on that measure, looking at all of the games, he's done alright, athough I don't know which dates you think are creating "discontinuities".

I'm not trying to enter the good or bad debate, or the bad or very bad debate - or the recent form!

Just really amazed, if the dates are correct, that his form was sixth from bottom.

Edited May 6, 2021 by Ken Tram

[Kingpin]

50 minutes ago, Ken Tram said:

(I was surprised though. I had the impression that he's been a total failure!)

He has been. 

[Jourdan]

Rooney has been in sole charge for 32 games. If you split it in half, it is a tale of huge extremes.

First 16 - W8, D4, L4 = 28 points from 48.

Last 16 - W2, D3, L11 = 9 points from 48.

It’s almost a 70% decrease in points garnered. An incredible drop off.

Rooney is unfortunate in the sense that if you reversed the two spells and we were going into the last game after winning 8 in 16, spirits would be high and Rooney would probably be getting hailed by one and all.

But perhaps by the same token if Rooney’s tenure had started with 2 wins in 16, he probably wouldn’t have got this far either.

If we win on Saturday, it will be 3 wins in 17. The kind of form that could perhaps result in a hangover the following season, as we saw with Cocu. We are at risk of repeating the very same cycle.

For me, it is a massive risk giving Rooney more time in the job and we really should be looking at pre season to make a clean break and freshen things up.

I mean you’d replace the coaches, you’d replace the players, you’d splash out millions, but you would leave in charge the man who has been a key player in all of the complete disarray at the club? Why?

Edited May 6, 2021 by Jourdan

[Yani P]

He took over after 13 games as sole manager so that data includes the 2 defeats with the gang of four..(talking about the table a few posts up)

Edited May 6, 2021 by Yani P

[Ken Tram]

To me, it feels like people are using statistics to further their arguments.

That's hardly a new practice, of course!

I don't understand why some of those critical of him seem reluctant to avoid acknowledging anything good.

In my mind, an argument that ignores any contrary points, appears closed and suspicious.

Splitting his tenure in two is illustrative - but I always feel frustrated when managers and pundits talk about points from one just if the season being important than others.

A point won during the first game of the season, is of equal value to a point won in the last game of the season.

We have 43 points. If any one of those points had not been obtained, we'd have 42 points. And if we had six fewer points, we'd only have 37 points.

The fall in results has been frustrating and worrying. But, it's the total number of points that is the key metric - and I'm still surprised - and pleased - that the number of points under Rooney is higher than five other teams.

[Kingpin]

poo vs very poo...

 

hmmm. 

[Jourdan]

OK, Rooney’s Derby has 37 points from 32 games.

Some will suggest that surely this shows Rooney has done a good job as this would almost certainly be enough to survive if averaged across 46 games.

For those saying Rooney has done a good job and deserves time, ask yourself this: if there were 14 games of the season still to play, would you back us to stay up?

On current form, I wouldn’t. And that is what people are getting at.

People said the same about Cocu. 10th? Surely he’s doing a good job? Surely after such a chaotic season, he deserves more time?

People ignored the warning signs. It was brushed under the carpet that we ended last season really poorly under Cocu. It was brushed under the carpet that we had a miserable pre-season. It was brushed under the carpet that the squad was seriously lacking in key areas. It was brushed under the carpet that we had taken some huge gambles in the transfer market.

And before we knew it, we were 11 games in and any hopes of an exciting season had all but disappeared.

We stick by Rooney, and especially if Mel is still at the helm, and there is a strong chance of history repeating itself.

 

Edited May 6, 2021 by Jourdan

[BatRam]

8 hours ago, Jourdan said:

OK, Rooney’s Derby has 37 points from 32 games.

Some will suggest that surely this shows Rooney has done a good job as this would almost certainly be enough to survive if averaged across 46 games.

For those saying Rooney has done a good job and deserves time, ask yourself this: if there were 14 games of the season still to play, would you back us to stay up?

On current form, I wouldn’t. And that is what people are getting at.

People said the same about Cocu. 10th? Surely he’s doing a good job? Surely after such a chaotic season, he deserves more time?

People ignored the warning signs. It was brushed under the carpet that we ended last season really poorly under Cocu. It was brushed under the carpet that we had a miserable pre-season. It was brushed under the carpet that the squad was seriously lacking in key areas. It was brushed under the carpet that we had taken some huge gambles in the transfer market.

And before we knew it, we were 11 games in and any hopes of an exciting season had all but disappeared.

We stick by Rooney, and especially if Mel is still at the helm, and there is a strong chance of history repeating itself.

 

Every manager since rowett has been quick to point out that behind the scenes is a mess. No money to spend balancing the books. I don’t think cocu was the problem. He was asked to play Barca like football with a poo gaggle of players. Rooney is trying to grind out results aswell with pretty much the same team and couldn’t purchase anyone in the window. Can’t be expected to do anything with just kids from the academy. The league is very physical and our younger players just get bullied by the pooper teams.  Mel Morris is to blame. If we don’t get a takeover sorted we’re in trouble. Going into league 1 with something like 11 players out of contract at end of the season. And just academy players. 

[angieram]

5 minutes ago, TomSaint said:

Every manager since rowett has been quick to point out that behind the scenes is a mess. 

Lampard, Cocu and Rooney? What have they all said? 

I missed all of those comments.

[cheron85]

9 hours ago, Ken Tram said:

But, every other manager is judged on the performance of all of the games for which they were in charge, tending to be the entire season. And on that measure, looking at all of the games, he's done alright, athough I don't know which dates you think are creating "discontinuities".

Cocu was sacked this season for getting 7 points from (I think) 13 games

From the last 14 games Rooney has taken 8 points

Across the course of his time with Derby Cocu got a win percentage and a PPG higher than Rooney has over his time in charge - Yet some people are happier with Rooney than Cocu

 

There's a caveat to all of this - A lot of Cocu's points last season came from the boot of Rooney - But then a lot of Rooney's points this season have been driven by Bielik being available - Cocu had a super rough time with injuries at the start of the season - Rooney has dealt with a squad with the most fragile of confidence - There are things to balance out in either scenario

Would love to know what Cocu would have been able to do with a fit squad and the board paying the little extra for Dursun but such is life

[RoyMac5]

51 minutes ago, cheron85 said:

Would love to know what Cocu would have been able to do with a fit squad and the board paying the little extra for Dursun but such is life

There would have been lots of passing around at the back and possession for possesions sake.

[IslandExile]

10 hours ago, Ken Tram said:

What are the key dates (or material discontinuities, or temporary contracts) that are relevant?

Bielik getting injured.

[nottingram]

Have to say I do feel more sympathy for Rooney based on Percy’s most recent article.

It had probably tipped me from wanting him gone either way to fairly ambivalent. It would be a difficult job for an experienced manager let alone a rookie in their first job, though I am still sceptical that he may have engineered the situation slightly to get the job

[Half Fan Half Biscuit]

Realistically, surely we can’t afford to pay off the 2 years left on WR’s contract, especially if we do go down to L1?

[Sparkle]

Hard to say if he will become a good manager or not because we simply need better players 

[RoyMac5]

9 minutes ago, Sparkle said:

Hard to say if he will become a good manager or not because we simply need better players 

Yeah. When we had two more - both goal scorers (Bielik & Gregory) - he was okay.

[rynny]

17 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Yeah. When we had two more - both goal scorers (Bielik & Gregory) - he was okay.

Bielik. Goal scorer. 6 goals in his career (86 games) 

[RoyMac5]

7 minutes ago, rynny said:

Bielik. Goal scorer. 6 goals in his career (86 games) 

Don't be sorry mate.

How many did he score this season? 13 games 2 goals. The goal against Bournemouth got us the points.