Rooney Out!

[Big Bad Bob]

So what some people are trying to say is to write off Rooney when he's inherited a team that was bottom of the table, a thin squad that isn't his, not had a full preseason, not had a full transfer window, not had a definite budget to work to, not had chance to plan, not sure who was / is going to own the club, has had to attempt to get the best result possible (either a draw or win of possible depending on the opposition) based on available players, has had key player injuries but has still taken us out of the bottom three? Sounds sensible ?

How about giving the guy a chance with a known club owner, known budget, full transfer window to get the players he wants in (and lets be fair, the chance of him getting the squad to where he wants in one window is unlikely), full pre-season of fitness, training and tactics? He is the leading England and Manchester United goal scorer, he's a born winner, worked under some of the best coaches in the world, is a household name and will have a wealth of contacts and influence. Plus we need some stability in the coach / manager role that we haven't had for a while (Cocu potentially would have seen out his contract, but I think it was the right course of action to part ways when we did).

[RoyMac5]

15 minutes ago, Cam the Ram said:

That grand total of 8 points is still more than Cocu managed in his 11 games. And he had a lot less injury problems to deal with than Rooney has recently. ?

I want Rooney gone at the end of the season regardless of what league we're in, but I absolutely will continue to blame Cocu when he managed to make us the worst team in the league sitting below Wycombe and a Sheffield Wednesday team with a points deduction, as well being the lowest scorers in the league. Rooney is having to fix the mess he left and yes, a fit Bielik played a big part in helping with that, but even since his injury Rooney has collected more points than 6 other teams in the league, 3 of which are relegation rivals. And not only did he do that without Bielik, but he also lost the likes of Lawrence, Waghorn, Marshall, Clarke, Byrne, Gregory, Edmundson and CKR for a number of those games too. 

Errr so after dealing with the Cocu last season/this season fall out, why would you want Rooney gone? Our bench last game was made up of players in diapers ffs! 

[Sparkle]

2 hours ago, DCFClks said:

ok but why has Waghorn forgot how to score? Why do our wide players create nothing? Do you not think the coaches have some responsibility for that?

Or the players are not very good 

[Cam the Ram]

9 minutes ago, Nuwtfly said:

I don’t think it’s harsh at all. I think is perfectly reasonable, not just for the reasons I set out in my previous post, but also because of the way he actually played in those 11 games. 

The way he meandered about that pitch, whilst singing his own ambitions about wanting to step into management, along with that ridiculous Socceraid stunt, was gross. Has any manager ever been so undermined by their Captain? 

Perhaps I am being a bit harsh, I’m certainly being very critical. But even if I take your point that he is “fixing Cocu’s mess” then I am sorry to say that he is still doing a bad job. He hasn’t fixed anything. If anything, we’ve gone from being a team with the wrong identity to a team with no identity. 

We are a car chuntering dangerously close to the edge of a cliff. But I agree with one of your points: the blame ultimately lies with the person who put Rooney in the driving seat. 

I can certainly agree with him being a big part of Cocu's problems with how poorly he performed on the pitch and the lack of identity the team has currently, but results wise I just don't think it's fair to lay much blame at his door. I'm usually one of the reactionary people on here who start to have a good moan after a string of poor results, but if someone had said to me me after our 13th game with us sitting bottom and 6 points from safety - "Rooney will take sole charge for the rest of the season, he'll have Bielik for roughly 10 games before he gets injured for the season, he will lose a few squad/1st team players in January and can only bring in a handful of cheap loans to bolster the squad, he'll be without Lawrence for roughly 3 months and a number of other 1st team players will miss a good chunk of games through injury, oh and he'll also have multiple off the field problems like unpaid wages and a fake takeover lingering in the background. So, how do you think Derby will get on this season?" I'd have said we'd be already down by this stage and the best we could hope for us to finish just above Wycombe so we aren't dead last.

Style wise and performances have been really poor, there's no doubt about that, but with all that's gone on this season and him taking charge with us rock bottom and little sign of hope, I think he deserves a little credit for getting us into a position where we have a decent chance to avoid relegation. 

[Nuwtfly]

6 minutes ago, Cam the Ram said:

I can certainly agree with him being a big part of Cocu's problems with how poorly he performed on the pitch and the lack of identity the team has currently, but results wise I just don't think it's fair to lay much blame at his door. I'm usually one of the reactionary people on here who start to have a good moan after a string of poor results, but if someone had said to me me after our 13th game with us sitting bottom and 6 points from safety - "Rooney will take sole charge for the rest of the season, he'll have Bielik for roughly 10 games before he gets injured for the season, he will lose a few squad/1st team players in January and can only bring in a handful of cheap loans to bolster the squad, he'll be without Lawrence for roughly 3 months and a number of other 1st team players will miss a good chunk of games through injury, oh and he'll also have multiple off the field problems like unpaid wages and a fake takeover lingering in the background. So, how do you think Derby will get on this season?" I'd have said we'd be already down by this stage and the best we could hope for us to finish just above Wycombe so we aren't dead last.

Style wise and performances have been really poor, there's no doubt about that, but with all that's gone on this season and him taking charge with us rock bottom and little sign of hope, I think he deserves a little credit for getting us into a position where we have a decent chance to avoid relegation. 

Again, fair points, well made ?

[Cam the Ram]

13 minutes ago, IslandExile said:

So you use injuries and quality of the squad as excuses for Rooney but Cocu, who had the same squad and had to deal with more injuries, "made us the worst team in the league" ?

What more injuries did Cocu have to deal with? Other than Bielik I seem to remember Lawrence missing a few games and that was about it. And why is it making excuses? Rooney outperformed Cocu this season both with and without Bielik so I don't really need to make excuses for anything. ?

[BondJovi]

4 minutes ago, Nuwtfly said:

I don’t think it’s harsh at all. I think is perfectly reasonable, not just for the reasons I set out in my previous post, but also because of the way he actually played in those 11 games. 

The way he meandered about that pitch, whilst singing his own ambitions about wanting to step into management, along with that ridiculous Socceraid stunt, was gross. Has any manager ever been so undermined by their Captain? 

Perhaps I am being a bit harsh, I’m certainly being very critical. But even if I take your point that he is “fixing Cocu’s mess” then I am sorry to say that he is still doing a bad job. He hasn’t fixed anything. If anything, we’ve gone from being a team with the wrong identity to a team with no identity. 

We are a car chuntering dangerously close to the edge of a cliff. But I agree with one of your points: the blame ultimately lies with the person who put Rooney in the driving seat. 

I said in a previous post that given the various off pitch incidents which have mostly been out of the managers hands we should be more lenient to both managers. This mess is the product of managers and players before Cocu. Though the ultimate blame lies with Mel, his support for his managers financially was great, except each manager appointed wanted to take the club in a different direction. All those cracks and various off the field events came to roost this season. 

I have sympathy for Cocu but very little for Rooney because of the bit from the post above.

Just look at who was available for those first few games of the season. 

1st game line up

Marshall
Wisdom
te Wierik
Clarke
Forsyth
Bird
Shinnie
Knight
Sibley
Whittaker
Marriott

Roos
Byrne
Evans
Buchanan
Rooney
Davies
Brown

 

Byrne had only signed 2 days before that game. Wisdom was still recovering from the stabbing fitness wise. Who on the bench can change that game? Jozwiak was in for game 2, Holmes game 3, Lawrence game 5, Waghorn game 6, CKR game 6. Sibley injured game 4-9.

 

[DCFC Kicks]

Just now, Sparkle said:

Or the players are not very good

That's just the easy conclusion. They've shown in the past they are at least decent Championship players, as for Lawrence and Jozwiak you can't deny they have the ability. Is it just a coincidence that almost all our attacking players are underperforming but almost all our Defenders aren't? I has nothing to do with the style of play and tactics what so ever?  

[IslandExile]

7 minutes ago, Cam the Ram said:

What more injuries did Cocu have to deal with? Other than Bielik I seem to remember Lawrence missing a few games and that was about it. And why is it making excuses? Rooney outperformed Cocu this season both with and without Bielik so I don't really need to make excuses for anything. ?

You have a short memory my friend.

Do you not recall the start of the season - with no strikers, Waghorn, Marriott, Lawrence even Rooney all out. CKR not fit to start. Bielik out.

[Cam the Ram]

8 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Errr so after dealing with the Cocu last season/this season fall out, why would you want Rooney gone? Our bench last game was made up of players in diapers ffs! 

There's just some decisions he's made whilst in charge here that made me lose confidence in him to be a good manager for us going forward. Maybe I'm being too entitled, but like most Championship club fans, when pre season starts I start thinking about pushing for the play offs and I believe there are better managers available out there who could help us try and achieve that.

[Cam the Ram]

5 minutes ago, IslandExile said:

You have a short memory my friend.

Do you not recall the start of the season - with no strikers, Waghorn, Marriott, Lawrence even Rooney all out. CKR not fit to start. Bielik out.

1st game vs Reading - Marriott started up front with Rooney on the bench.

2nd game vs Luton - Marriott started up front with Rooney in the #10 role.

3rd game vs Blackburn - Marriott started up front with Rooney in holding mid.

4th game vs Norwich - Rooney started up front with Marriott on the bench.

5th game vs Watford - Rooney started up front with Lawrence on the bench. (I believe on this same day Marriott was loaned out)

6th game vs Huddersfield - Jozwiak and Lawrence up front with Waghorn and CKR on the bench.

 

Other than the Watford and Huddersfield games where Marriott's departure and Waghorn/CKR's fitness meant they were only on the bench, I think it's a bit of a push to say there was no strikers at the start of the season for Cocu. 

[TheresOnlyWanChope]

25 minutes ago, DCFClks said:

That's just the easy conclusion. They've shown in the past they are at least decent Championship players, as for Lawrence and Jozwiak you can't deny they have the ability. Is it just a coincidence that almost all our attacking players are underperforming but almost all our Defenders aren't? I has nothing to do with the style of play and tactics what so ever?  

Ability is fine but they need to do it consistently. Not necessarily a management thing, maybe they're not good enough over a season. Plus we haven't had many options and have had injuries. Under two managers since first lockdown we have struggled in attack. Can't be all on the managers or tactics. We don't have enough options and maybe Lawrence and Joswiak and others shine more when there is more quality around them which there isn't. What other tactics would you want?? 

[BondJovi]

34 minutes ago, Cam the Ram said:

1st game vs Reading - Marriott started up front with Rooney on the bench.

2nd game vs Luton - Marriott started up front with Rooney in the #10 role.

3rd game vs Blackburn - Marriott started up front with Rooney in holding mid.

4th game vs Norwich - Rooney started up front with Marriott on the bench.

5th game vs Watford - Rooney started up front with Lawrence on the bench. (I believe on this same day Marriott was loaned out)

6th game vs Huddersfield - Jozwiak and Lawrence up front with Waghorn and CKR on the bench.

 

Other than the Watford and Huddersfield games where Marriott's departure and Waghorn/CKR's fitness meant they were only on the bench, I think it's a bit of a push to say there was no strikers at the start of the season for Cocu. 

It is a big push to describe Marriott or Rooney as strikers this season! On strike is probably more apt.

[rynny]

The one thing I struggle with is how Rooney seems to get a free pass on the first 13 games. He was part of the management team and captain. He was the link between the management and players.

What I also don't understand is if there was an issue with the training/tactics being too complicated for the players that means either (a) the players didn't say anything until after Cocu was sacked (b) the players told their go between (Rooney) and he didn't pass the meassge on to Cocu (c) Cocu didn't listen to the players and carried on with what he was doing. 

[OohMartWright]

Confidence plays a major part. Losing games damages confidence, so players hide or, at best, take the safe option which usually involves passing sideways or backwards. This, of course, means the forwards are starved of ball, we don't score, inevitably concede and lose games which means even less confidence for the next game. We've all heard the saying that losing becomes a habit.

Rooney started to rebuild confidence by making us hard to beat, assisted in no small part by the return of Bielik. We started winning games, confidence grew and all was rosy in the garden until Bielik got injured again and the confidence of the other players nosedived again. Since the international break, the win against Luton and the creditable performances against Reading and Norwich suggest to me that confidence is beginning to build again and if we can take similar performance levels into our remaining games I would expect us to stay up.

Until Rooney has had a proper transfer window and pre-season, I, for one, am prepared to stick with him.

[RoyMac5]

6 minutes ago, rynny said:

The one thing I struggle with is how Rooney seems to get a free pass on the first 13 games. He was part of the management team and captain. He was the link between the management and players.

What I also don't understand is if there was an issue with the training/tactics being too complicated for the players that means either (a) the players didn't say anything until after Cocu was sacked (b) the players told their go between (Rooney) and he didn't pass the meassge on to Cocu (c) Cocu didn't listen to the players and carried on with what he was doing. 

He was in charge. Edit: oh and stubborn according to previous reports. 

Edited April 14, 2021 by RoyMac5

[IslandExile]

41 minutes ago, Cam the Ram said:

1st game vs Reading - Marriott started up front with Rooney on the bench.

2nd game vs Luton - Marriott started up front with Rooney in the #10 role.

3rd game vs Blackburn - Marriott started up front with Rooney in holding mid.

4th game vs Norwich - Rooney started up front with Marriott on the bench.

5th game vs Watford - Rooney started up front with Lawrence on the bench. (I believe on this same day Marriott was loaned out)

6th game vs Huddersfield - Jozwiak and Lawrence up front with Waghorn and CKR on the bench.

 

Other than the Watford and Huddersfield games where Marriott's departure and Waghorn/CKR's fitness meant they were only on the bench, I think it's a bit of a push to say there was no strikers at the start of the season for Cocu. 

 

4 minutes ago, BondJovi said:

It is a big push to describe Marriott or Rooney as strikers this season! On strike is probably more apt.

@BondJovi answered it better than I could.
I had hoped that Marriott would be great for us - it hasn't turned out that way at all.

I dont think even Rooney's biggest fan would claim he was up to being a striker this season (or last).

Waghorn and Lawrence only started first in the game against Forest (was that game 7?) and neither made the full 90 minutes because they weren't fit enough. CKR was limited to sub appearances for the same reason.

So, that's at least 7 games (out of 11 for Cocu?) where Cocu did not have a decent choice of strikers.

You mention Jozwiak in Game 6. I forgot his protracted transfer took a while to sort out or was he injured to begin with aswell.

Bielik, of course, was out and wasn't Holmes missing for a large part.

Anyway, the point remains.....Cocu had a lot of injuries to contend with in his games this season.

Now, as much as I did like Cocu, by the end I also thought he had to go.

He was sold a pup, had no money (Mel pulled the plug, transfer embargo etc). I think he was undermined by the recruitment of Rooney and the stories in the press. But, by the end, I was disagreeing with his team selection (including playing Rooney) and his tactics.

What gets me - and I have said this earlier - in this thread or another one - is that people are willing to give Rooney the benefit of the doubt because of the poor quality of the squad and the injuries that he has had to contend with. Fair enough. That's understandable. But, please then don't be inconsistent and fail to recognize that Cocu faced the very same issues.

[Ken Tram]

12 minutes ago, rynny said:

The one thing I struggle with is how Rooney seems to get a free pass on the first 13 games. He was part of the management team and captain. He was the link between the management and players.

What I also don't understand is if there was an issue with the training/tactics being too complicated for the players that means either (a) the players didn't say anything until after Cocu was sacked (b) the players told their go between (Rooney) and he didn't pass the meassge on to Cocu (c) Cocu didn't listen to the players and carried on with what he was doing. 

Cocu needed help with communication.

Iam not sure that it was said that it was Rooney's role to be a go-between.

[IslandExile]

10 minutes ago, Ken Tram said:

Cocu needed help with communication.

Iam not sure that it was said that it was Rooney's role to be a go-between.

Rooney was captain. Isn't that what they usually do?

[kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong]

I don't think that Rooney has shown anything to make me believe he is a great manager or coach up to now.Our football hasn't been slick or inspiring or really even good to watch.

The caveat though is that he really hasn't had the resources to show what he really can do as of yet.

Next season however is a no excuse zone and I really want to see what he can produce here with a clean slate and some reasonable funding.

It will either click or not and there can be no blaming of cocu or previous managerial incumbents if it doesn't.

Equally he can take the plaudits if it does.

At least we will be there to judge it for ourselves this time around.

I just hope he doesn't have to prove it playing Shrewsbury and the like.

 

Edited April 14, 2021 by kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong