Rooney Out!

[Jourdan]

3 minutes ago, Nuwtfly said:

You know what; this is the only area I would perhaps defend Rooney...

Of the five signings he made in January, the only one I would not sign permanently, if given the opportunity, is Gregory.

Can you envisage any of those players being a key cog in a team with promotion aspirations?

Mengi possibly 18 months from now.

The rest? No, thanks.

[sage]

27 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

If Alonso is serious about where he wants to take the club, why would he stick with Rooney?

Is the football good to watch? No.

Do we play with bravery? No.

Do we win more games than we lose? No.

Are any of the players playing to or above their potential? No.

Is he a manager who changes games with his tactics and substitutions? Only seldom.

Has he shown himself to have an eye for a player? No.

I would understand keeping Rooney if we were just a few tweaks away from being a top 6 side.

But with Rooney in charge, it’s going to be a long slog back to the top and League 1 could possibly be the starting point.

Utter rot. 

Eye for a player? We were on an embargo and we had to scramble around at the last minute for cheap loans.

It doesn't matter who is on charge, the side needs more than a few tweaks. Rooney hasn't had an opportunity to make permanent signings and had to offload players to pay wages. 

Now I've no idea if he will make a good manager. I've seen good and bad indicators so far. 

He has inherited a team in an awful situation and increased the points per game rationby about 50% whilst all this is going on.

If we stay up, he will have done enough at least to have a fully planned transfer window with a clear budget and to start the next season.

 

[kevinhectoring]

15 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

Can you envisage any of those players being a key cog in a team with promotion aspirations?

Mengi possibly 18 months from now.

The rest? No, thanks.

Was pleased to see this. I think Mengi has awesome potential and he gets few plaudits - he might well be playing in the PL 18 months from now. 

[Rammy03]

14 minutes ago, kevinhectoring said:

Was pleased to see this. I think Mengi has awesome potential and he gets few plaudits - he might well be playing in the PL 18 months from now. 

I like the look of him, there's a reason why he's so highly rated at man United. Very similar to Tomori but will take a little while to become that good, he's only 18 after all

[Jourdan]

15 minutes ago, sage said:

Utter rot. 

Eye for a player? We were on an embargo and we had to scramble around at the last minute for cheap loans.

It doesn't matter who is on charge, the side needs more than a few tweaks. Rooney hasn't had an opportunity to make permanent signings and had to offload players to pay wages. 

Now I've no idea if he will make a good manager. I've seen good and bad indicators so far. 

He has inherited a team in an awful situation and increased the points per game rationby about 50% whilst all this is going on.

If we stay up, he will have done enough at least to have a fully planned transfer window with a clear budget and to start the next season.

 

Sorry @sage but I respectfully disagree.

If we stay up, why does he deserve any more time?

Modern football is not about getting what you deserve, modern football is about being equipped to deliver what the club and its owner want.

Alonso wants a promotion push and I would expect exciting, winning football to match. What have you seen from Rooney to suggest he can deliver that?

Rooney has done a reasonable job in difficult circumstances and he will have achieved his remit if we do indeed stay up. 

But it’s all about evolution and taking the next steps and kicking on, and there is obvious and significant doubt that Rooney is capable of that.

Look at how we have regressed in only a matter of months.

[Rammy03]

38 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

It’s not double standards. I didn’t want to stick with Cocu, and nor would I stick with Rooney given the choice. 

Stability would be nice but I think time and stability should be afforded to the right man.

The coach/manager’s vision should be compatible with that. I don’t see how we evolve under Rooney.

If Rooney keeps us up, why should that entitle him to a longer spell in charge?

Football is not about sentiment, football is about giving yourself the best shot at success.

If Alonso really wants us to be in the play offs and pushing for promotion next season, why would he gamble on an inexperienced Rooney and his uninspiring pragma-ball?

Another year of watching us under Rooney will only turn more and more fans off.

I wasn't talking about you specifically, I know you didn't rate Cocu and you don't rate Rooney. But there are people out there who demand Rooney is sacked yet wanted Cocu to be given time. 

I don't disagree with your reasoning, I've seen good things from Rooney and also bad things. I think if he keeps us up he deserves a shot next season. It's very hard to judge him given everything he has had to contend with, similar to Cocu last season. 

[Jourdan]

6 minutes ago, Rammy03 said:

I wasn't talking about you specifically, I know you didn't rate Cocu and you don't rate Rooney. But there are people out there who demand Rooney is sacked yet wanted Cocu to be given time. 

I don't disagree with your reasoning, I've seen good things from Rooney and also bad things. I think if he keeps us up he deserves a shot next season. It's very hard to judge him given everything he has had to contend with, similar to Cocu last season. 

He might deserve a shot if we are being fair and reasonable, but how often is football fair and reasonable?

Success for the club and Alonso next year is a play-off push.

In those terms, is an inexperienced manager like Rooney our best shot at having success next season?

Surely you would seek to appoint a more experienced manager with a clear ethos of attacking football and a track record of winning or competing for promotion?

[S8TY]

3 hours ago, Jourdan said:

He might deserve a shot if we are being fair and reasonable, but how often is football fair and reasonable?

Success for the club and Alonso next year is a play-off push.

In those terms, is an inexperienced manager like Rooney our best shot at having success next season?

Surely you would seek to appoint a more experienced manager with a clear ethos of attacking football and a track record of winning or competing for promotion?

You're never actually positive about anything Jourdan....ever! ....Rooney has a difficult job ...do you really expect us to be playing magnificent fantastic football sweeping everyone away with entertaining  football ?? really?

i'll give you a few reasons why then I'm going to leave it as i find you quite negative and never see anything positive....

 Put yourself into Rooney's shoes , I would say when he got the job his first and main task was to keep us up whether playing dull or attractive football that was the perogative.

 I would say that looking at our forward options we are never going to win games by scoring 3 or 4 so keeping it tight at the back would've been a priority and build some confidence from there.

This was done quite well and i beleive if Beilik had not got injured we'd be safe by now but our squad has been thin on attacking options all season and long before Rooney was appointed 

The 5 loans all seem reasonable enough players but if i was to criticise it would be that another striker as well as Gregory was needed but we were hardly in a position to pick and choose and i for one was shocked we signed anyone as at one stage it looked like we wasn't going to....all of this is out of Rooneys hands 

With key injuries to Beilik Clarke and Lawrence and relying heavily on an ageing kazim we have struggled recently but we are far from down and the most recent performances have been encouraging 

The priority is to stay up not play majestic football unfortunately  and if were trying to play a style this squad is not capable of you'd be complaining about that but the reality is this squad is quite unbalanced especially in attack and attacking ideas from midfield so priority is get over the line ...stay up.....then lets build a better squad, lets face it we will probably have only about 6 players left at the end of the season and a rebuild is necessary.

Then by all means next season complain if the football is dour or not entertaining but as soon as Rooney took over the priority was to  get us to stay up anything else would've been a bonus.

Also lets get one thing right Our beloved Club has been in turmoil and something of a mess for a while and the whole takeover thing and wages not being paid helps no one ....give Rooney time...he is not my choice either to be manager but to expect silky fantastic football with what he's been dealt with is expecting a lot....most of these players will not be Derby players next season lets judge him properly then.......

 

[rynny]

8 hours ago, Jourdan said:

Can you envisage any of those players being a key cog in a team with promotion aspirations?

Mengi possibly 18 months from now.

The rest? No, thanks.

I like the look of Roberts, I think with a team that's more attacking he will really flourish. 

[Jourdan]

3 hours ago, S8TY said:

You're never actually positive about anything Jourdan....ever! ....Rooney has a difficult job ...do you really expect us to be playing magnificent fantastic football sweeping everyone away with entertaining  football ?? really?

i'll give you a few reasons why then I'm going to leave it as i find you quite negative and never see anything positive....

 Put yourself into Rooney's shoes , I would say when he got the job his first and main task was to keep us up whether playing dull or attractive football that was the perogative.

 I would say that looking at our forward options we are never going to win games by scoring 3 or 4 so keeping it tight at the back would've been a priority and build some confidence from there.

This was done quite well and i beleive if Beilik had not got injured we'd be safe by now but our squad has been thin on attacking options all season and long before Rooney was appointed 

The 5 loans all seem reasonable enough players but if i was to criticise it would be that another striker as well as Gregory was needed but we were hardly in a position to pick and choose and i for one was shocked we signed anyone as at one stage it looked like we wasn't going to....all of this is out of Rooneys hands 

With key injuries to Beilik Clarke and Lawrence and relying heavily on an ageing kazim we have struggled recently but we are far from down and the most recent performances have been encouraging 

The priority is to stay up not play majestic football unfortunately  and if were trying to play a style this squad is not capable of you'd be complaining about that but the reality is this squad is quite unbalanced especially in attack and attacking ideas from midfield so priority is get over the line ...stay up.....then lets build a better squad, lets face it we will probably have only about 6 players left at the end of the season and a rebuild is necessary.

Then by all means next season complain if the football is dour or not entertaining but as soon as Rooney took over the priority was to  get us to stay up anything else would've been a bonus.

Also lets get one thing right Our beloved Club has been in turmoil and something of a mess for a while and the whole takeover thing and wages not being paid helps no one ....give Rooney time...he is not my choice either to be manager but to expect silky fantastic football with what he's been dealt with is expecting a lot....most of these players will not be Derby players next season lets judge him properly then.......

 

We are talking about next year’s prospects under Rooney relative to the potential new owner’s expectations and whether a new manager is more likely to deliver what Alonso wants.

It’s nothing to do with what I expect. It’s nothing to do with whether I am positive or negative, although not a post goes by without you making the same old tired digs, which actually only detract from some of the good well reasoned points you make.

It’s not about me, anyway. It’s all about what our potential new owner has in mind for the club. He has been quite vocal about his grand plans for the club, so is he going to pour his time, energy and resources into an unproven Rooney? He has no attachment to Rooney and no obligation to keep Rooney after all.

You are saying that Rooney has had a difficult job and that is why we shouldn’t judge him. But football is not fair and reasonable these days. The bottom line is that if you can’t deliver what the owner wants, they will find someone who can. There is no sentiment involved and it’s nothing to do with the interests of fairness.

Let’s be honest about Rooney - he has made this job difficult for himself by overestimating his readiness for such a job.

At the end of February, we were in a very comfortable position. The hard work was pretty much done. We were actually closer to the top half than the bottom three and that is of course with great credit to Rooney.

We had a nine point advantage over Rotherham in 22nd. We had to win four games in 14 to reach the magic 50. The pressure was off more or less. Rooney had the perfect platform to start planting seeds for next season and to start showing small but important signs of what was to come. 

Instead we have actually regressed and instead the football has actually got worse and so too have the results. So Rooney has basically undone his own good work in less than 10 games and once again we’re going to need to step up and get ourselves out of trouble.

If we had gone into every game trying to attack, trying to play with bravery and trying to play with a clear and obvious style and a plan, such poor results and such an implosion would probably be easily forgiven.

No one expects scintillating football at this point, or indeed possibly ever with Rooney. What fans (and the potential new owner) will respond to though is a clear and conscious effort to produce the kind of football we all want to see.

Whether you rate this group of players or not, Rooney has had enough time to establish some groundwork. If we’re honest, how Rooney sees the game is at odds with how most Derby fans want the team to play. What is going to change over one summer?

Edited April 15, 2021 by Jourdan

[Jourdan]

44 minutes ago, rynny said:

I like the look of Roberts, I think with a team that's more attacking he will really flourish. 

Roberts does have good moments. But we already have two very similar players in terms of productivity and consistency in Lawrence and Jozwiak.

If he were to stay, he’d only be third or fourth choice next season, so what is in it for us or him?

[ramsbottom]

8 hours ago, Jourdan said:

He might deserve a shot if we are being fair and reasonable, but how often is football fair and reasonable?

Success for the club and Alonso next year is a play-off push.

In those terms, is an inexperienced manager like Rooney our best shot at having success next season?

Surely you would seek to appoint a more experienced manager with a clear ethos of attacking football and a track record of winning or competing for promotion?

We achieved a play off final in Frank Lampard's first year in management.  Just saying...

Playing devil's advocate, if we were to say "thanks but no thanks" at the end of the season, which experienced manager, with a track record of winning or competing for promotion would you pick as our next manager???  And do you think said manager would have sufficient time to assess our current squad and sign the (in your opinion) 17 new players you think we'll need??

[Jourdan]

7 minutes ago, ramsbottom said:

We achieved a play off final in Frank Lampard's first year in management.  Just saying...

Playing devil's advocate, if we were to say "thanks but no thanks" at the end of the season, which experienced manager, with a track record of winning or competing for promotion would you pick as our next manager???  And do you think said manager would have sufficient time to assess our current squad and sign the (in your opinion) 17 new players you think we'll need??

Where did I say we need 17 players? Please point me in that direction.

To answer your question, I think Steve Cooper would be a very good fit for us. I would go for him if it were possible. Chris Wilder is also available.

We could even look abroad again. There are some well-principled coaches at less established clubs in Italy, Spain or Portugal who we could possibly entice.

It really depends on Alonso and how genuine he is about taking this club forward.

Keeping Rooney and maintaining the status quo would go against all of this ambitious talk. 

Lampard got us to the play off final in 2019 - how is that relevant to Rooney and his prospects? 

The circumstances and mentalities of both are so different.

[Taribo]

1 hour ago, rynny said:

I like the look of Roberts, I think with a team that's more attacking he will really flourish. 

Nope, not for me, wrong decision every time. 

* The phrase 'flatters to deceive' sums him up perfectly. looks flashy, looks a world beater but then just tries to take on 'one more' player, which ends in the breakdown of our attack.

 

Edited April 15, 2021 by Taribo
* Edited to add:

[rynny]

1 hour ago, Jourdan said:

Roberts does have good moments. But we already have two very similar players in terms of productivity and consistency in Lawrence and Jozwiak.

If he were to stay, he’d only be third or fourth choice next season, so what is in it for us or him?

I think he is better than Jozwiak, and would be 1st choice on the right. 

I'm thinking back to Mac1 and having 4 wide players that can rotate as needed, with Lawrence, Roberts, Jozwiak and Ibe. We've seen how form fluctuates in this division, with wide players especially. 

23 minutes ago, Taribo said:

Nope, not for me, wrong decision every time. 

* The phrase 'flatters to deceive' sums him up perfectly. looks flashy, looks a world beater but then just tries to take on 'one more' player, which ends in the breakdown of our attack.

 

As I said I think in a team that has a better attacking focus then he would be very good. 

If he we had players further up the pitch, and more players around him, he will have more options to pass to. At the moment he has CKR with 2 center backs on him and the other winger. You can see when Byrne joins in how well he uses his runs, either with his passing or as a decoy. 

Obviously it is my opinion, but I can see a good player in Roberts, and in a good attacking team would shine. 

[Ken Tram]

9 hours ago, Jourdan said:

He might deserve a shot if we are being fair and reasonable, but how often is football fair and reasonable?

Success for the club and Alonso next year is a play-off push.

In those terms, is an inexperienced manager like Rooney our best shot at having success next season?

Surely you would seek to appoint a more experienced manager with a clear ethos of attacking football and a track record of winning or competing for promotion?

Nope.

[ramsbottom]

29 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

Where did I say we need 17 players? Please point me in that direction.

To answer your question, I think Steve Cooper would be a very good fit for us. I would go for him if it were possible. Chris Wilder is also available.

We could even look abroad again. There are some well-principled coaches at less established clubs in Italy, Spain or Portugal who we could possibly entice.

It really depends on Alonso and how genuine he is about taking this club forward.

Keeping Rooney and maintaining the status quo would go against all of this ambitious talk. 

Lampard got us to the play off final in 2019 - how is that relevant to Rooney and his prospects? 

The circumstances and mentalities of both are so different.

"Can you envisage any of those players being a key cog in a team with promotion aspirations?

Mengi possibly 18 months from now.

The rest? No, thanks."

Maybe I should've read this in context, but you seem to be implying our squad isn't good enough.

The reason I brought up Lampard is that you're saying we need an experienced manager to achieve a promotion push, but we reached them with a manager who was in his 1st year of management.  The right man is the right man, regardless of experience.

Rooney may not be the right man, but I think you're undervaluing the job he's done since he took over.  The team was on it's arse and even though he's made mistakes, he has brought about an improvement, despite being hamstrung by financial constraints, & serious injuries.

 

[Nuwtfly]

12 minutes ago, ramsbottom said:

The reason I brought up Lampard is that you're saying we need an experienced manager to achieve a promotion push, but we reached them with a manager who was in his 1st year of management.

We were carried to Wembley by the individual brilliance of Harry Wilson, AC Milan defender Fikayo Tomori, and England international Mason Mount. Plus the odd bit of divine intervention from Mr Jack Marriott.

Lampard did his best to stop us getting there, and ultimately succeeded with that starting XI at Wembley ?

[ramsbottom]

27 minutes ago, Nuwtfly said:

We were carried to Wembley by the individual brilliance of Harry Wilson, AC Milan defender Fikayo Tomori, and England international Mason Mount. Plus the odd bit of divine intervention from Mr Jack Marriott.

Lampard did his best to stop us getting there, and ultimately succeeded with that starting XI at Wembley ?

Not arguing with any of that, particularly with Fwank's team selection at Wembley.  I'm sure he was day dreaming about Roman's yacht as El Gahzi slotted home their first...

But who's to say Rooney couldn't get similar quality loans in...

[Ghost of Clough]

22 minutes ago, Nuwtfly said:

We were carried to Wembley by the individual brilliance of Harry Wilson, AC Milan defender Fikayo Tomori, and England international Mason Mount. Plus the odd bit of divine intervention from Mr Jack Marriott.

Lampard did his best to stop us getting there, and ultimately succeeded with that starting XI at Wembley ?

Tomori and Mount weren't international nor playing for AC Milan at the time though. In fact, they were barely U21 players, with each making just 4 appearances out of 7(?) possible U21 matches.