Out of sync?

[HecMacTod]

Food for thought from a new poster:

In the Covid season 2021 Paul Warne's Rotherham beat Derby County 1-0 at Pride Park (Rotherham possession 35%, Derby 65%, Rotherham passes 237, Derby 429, Rotherham passing accuracy 59% Derby 76%).

In the return fixture Rotherham won 3-0 (Rotherham possession 35% Derby 65%, Rotherham passes 260, Derby 488, Rotherham passing accuracy 57%, derby 77 %).

Fast forward to this season, using FotMob statistics, Paul Warne's Derby County are next to bottom (above Millwall) with 41.3% average possesion and next to bottom (above Millwall) with 244.7 accurate passes per match.

So despite having, on the face of it, better players than his 2021 Rotherham championship squad, Warne has not changed his tactics. He is either not interested in or believes he doesn't possess the necessary qualities in his team to play possession football. Fine you may argue, that's his choice as manager. And it is also fine that some supporters (but not all) don't like watching that style of football.

But in a recent interview for Rams TV under 18 coach Danny Maye talks about trying to get a style of play that develops players for the highest level...ready for the Premier League....not only about working hard, pressing but it's about dominating the ball. He goes on the say that they are often reaching 60/65 per cent possession.

The under 18s currently top a league that includes Manchester United, Manchester City and Liverpool.

What's the point of the academy playing this way if the first team is the complete opposite with a manager seemingly more obsessed with players “gassing out.”

Surely all teams at Derby County, at whatever level, should be consistent in their style of football.

Our local media, hoodwinked by Warne's homespun, folksy, Forest Gump waffle about bobble hats, his dog, his brother, his Benidorm mates, coffee, blah, blah, don't seem interested in asking about why Derby County play this way. Why is there not more emphasis on actually keeping the ball.

The under 21s now include the likes of Cruz Allen, Lennon Wheeldon and Niall McAndrew, all academy products, all now getting international recognition.

If you were their parent or agent, do you think (given the chance that is) their career will advance playing for a side managed by someone whose tactic in some matches is to play Ebou Adams, a whole-hearted and strong tackling individual but with the technical passing skills of a competent League One performer as the most advance midfield close to the strikers and yet the skillful imaginative  Kenzo Goudmijn as the most deep lying holding player despite having scored twice in previous matches.

It's a tactic which has puzzled Radio Derby ex-professionals Eric Steele, Darren Robinson and Malcolm Christie. Me too. Bonkers.

Accomplished midfield players such as Max Bird, Jason Knight and Louis Sibley have chosen to pursue careers elsewhere. Wonder why?

Sunderland midfield Dan Neil in an interview about new manager Regis Le Bris said: "He has definitely brought new ideas, new ways of playing, especially in possession.

"I feel like the way we are playing now is a lot more structured. Everybody knows their roles in and out of possession."

A BBC article adds: “There's no longer the 'pass to the attacking players and hope for the best' kind of mindset that seemed prevalent in the club's recent past.”

Sound familiar?

“Le Bris' style of play hinges on his midfield talent - Rigg, Bellingham and Neil - to create triangles of space on the pitch and build into an attack rather than a gung-ho approach.”

The Rams should be congratulated for upgrading their recruitment department, data analysis, and academy set-up.

Is Paul Warne interested or capable of adapting to the challenges ahead? Or will he stick to tested and tried methods which have brought him success in the past.

He deserves praise for getting Derby out of League One (although on his own admission it was a failure not to achieve that at the first attempt) and if he keeps the Rams in the Championship this season then again he will deserve praise.

But David Clowes and Stephen Pearce should already be utilising all the data available to them to ready move on to the next level.

[Comrade 86]

Another Warne thread....

[jcidaho]

Ah thank God the international break was getting so boring.

Warne In... Out... Shake-it-all-about!

[Gaspode]

[FindernRam]

Very well presented data and thoughts. 

My view on possession is a bit neutral. Many games are won by the team having the least possession in a game. This may be due to the quality ( and style of the opposition). Also too many teams go ahead and then sit back trying to hold onto the ball. This also does not always work. The counter strike works well for some teams.

As a newly promoted team I would not expect our players to be able to hold the ball too well against established Championship teams (or demoted Premier). The pace and quality this early in the season are fairly new to us. So we go for the counter attack and if this means long balls so be it.

We still have no real strike force so compromises in style are inevitable and injuries have their effect.

The academy is doing the right thing and in my view playing a long game. These players may be ready for first team action in 2 or 3 years time, when we are back in the Prem and our first team will be very different to now.

I'm also not worried about the view of ex-players. The clue is in the name. These guys (no disrespect intended) are not managers or tactical geniuses. Just armchair managers like us.

Why do players leave? Bird wanted a change I think. The others I have no idea, but Knight for one appears  to be doing well. In an average team.

Warne is a bit Marmite but clubs learn to their cost that swapping managers/coaches at the drop of a hat is not good. The players seem to like him and that's a good sign. Lose the dressing room and then you are dead meat!

[YorkshireRam]

''So despite having, on the face of it, better players than his 2021 Rotherham championship squad, Warne has not changed his tactics.''

I don't think our players are better than his Rotherham squad, I'd argue they're very much on par! We have one of the worst squads on paper in this division currently; that's not a criticism, but I do believe it to be fairly true. Our tactics and approach is still borne out of pragmatism because we haven't got the individual quality to play like Man City. Trying to do so would be wildly naïve, in my opinion.

We are where we are in the league down to how Warne has set us up so far. I'm happy currently so I'm in the 'don't fix what isn't broken' mindset. 

Edited Monday at 14:12 by YorkshireRam

[MadAmster]

Warne deserves this season. Let's see how things develop over the season. If he does well (remember, it's a results based "business") he may well deserve next season too. That would be his 4th. When does his contract expire? From September 2022 he got a 4 year contract. Was that up to Summer 2026 or 2027, 4 years plus the remainder of the season he joined us?

Any changes at the top will, IMO, be in his last full season rather than earlier. Simply down to compo for him and his staff possibly taking up a couple of million that we could better spend on players.

[FKANorwichExile]

Ask Southampton fans how they feel about Russel Martin and his possession football. Just because City do it, does that mean everyone else should too? Meanwhile nearly every fanbase in the league comments on how weak our squad looks, and our "homespun, folksy, Forest Gimp" makes them eat their words as they trudge away from Pride Park with nowt.

It's undeniable fact that Warneball has gotten better each season as he shapes the squad the way he wants. Scouting is working out and unearthing diamonds. We're sitting mid table when most Championship fans had us rock bottom in their predictions, and we're doing this on a small budget that will only get bigger with time as investment arrives and fan support continues to blow the balance apart.

But here we are complaining that we're not winning the right way 🤦

Edited Monday at 14:33 by FKANorwichExile

[Archied]

1 hour ago, Comrade 86 said:

Another Warne thread....

Not just another Warne thread ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,another why Warne is the wrong man thread 🤷🏻‍♂️😂

[maxjam]

Did we get promoted last season ✅

Were we tipped to get relegated this season ✅

Are we exceeding expectations this season ✅

Have we recruited well ✅

Are we playing better football than last season ✅

 

Personally I'm just enjoying being on an upward curve again after the past few seasons.  It would be extremely harsh, not to mention a little bit risky, to change the manager if it continues.

Welcome to the forum btw, lets see what your second post brings!

[Premier ram]

2 hours ago, HecMacTod said:

Food for thought from a new poster:

In the Covid season 2021 Paul Warne's Rotherham beat Derby County 1-0 at Pride Park (Rotherham possession 35%, Derby 65%, Rotherham passes 237, Derby 429, Rotherham passing accuracy 59% Derby 76%).

In the return fixture Rotherham won 3-0 (Rotherham possession 35% Derby 65%, Rotherham passes 260, Derby 488, Rotherham passing accuracy 57%, derby 77 %).

Fast forward to this season, using FotMob statistics, Paul Warne's Derby County are next to bottom (above Millwall) with 41.3% average possesion and next to bottom (above Millwall) with 244.7 accurate passes per match.

So despite having, on the face of it, better players than his 2021 Rotherham championship squad, Warne has not changed his tactics. He is either not interested in or believes he doesn't possess the necessary qualities in his team to play possession football. Fine you may argue, that's his choice as manager. And it is also fine that some supporters (but not all) don't like watching that style of football.

But in a recent interview for Rams TV under 18 coach Danny Maye talks about trying to get a style of play that develops players for the highest level...ready for the Premier League....not only about working hard, pressing but it's about dominating the ball. He goes on the say that they are often reaching 60/65 per cent possession.

The under 18s currently top a league that includes Manchester United, Manchester City and Liverpool.

What's the point of the academy playing this way if the first team is the complete opposite with a manager seemingly more obsessed with players “gassing out.”

Surely all teams at Derby County, at whatever level, should be consistent in their style of football.

Our local media, hoodwinked by Warne's homespun, folksy, Forest Gump waffle about bobble hats, his dog, his brother, his Benidorm mates, coffee, blah, blah, don't seem interested in asking about why Derby County play this way. Why is there not more emphasis on actually keeping the ball.

The under 21s now include the likes of Cruz Allen, Lennon Wheeldon and Niall McAndrew, all academy products, all now getting international recognition.

If you were their parent or agent, do you think (given the chance that is) their career will advance playing for a side managed by someone whose tactic in some matches is to play Ebou Adams, a whole-hearted and strong tackling individual but with the technical passing skills of a competent League One performer as the most advance midfield close to the strikers and yet the skillful imaginative  Kenzo Goudmijn as the most deep lying holding player despite having scored twice in previous matches.

It's a tactic which has puzzled Radio Derby ex-professionals Eric Steele, Darren Robinson and Malcolm Christie. Me too. Bonkers.

Accomplished midfield players such as Max Bird, Jason Knight and Louis Sibley have chosen to pursue careers elsewhere. Wonder why?

Sunderland midfield Dan Neil in an interview about new manager Regis Le Bris said: "He has definitely brought new ideas, new ways of playing, especially in possession.

"I feel like the way we are playing now is a lot more structured. Everybody knows their roles in and out of possession."

A BBC article adds: “There's no longer the 'pass to the attacking players and hope for the best' kind of mindset that seemed prevalent in the club's recent past.”

Sound familiar?

“Le Bris' style of play hinges on his midfield talent - Rigg, Bellingham and Neil - to create triangles of space on the pitch and build into an attack rather than a gung-ho approach.”

The Rams should be congratulated for upgrading their recruitment department, data analysis, and academy set-up.

Is Paul Warne interested or capable of adapting to the challenges ahead? Or will he stick to tested and tried methods which have brought him success in the past.

He deserves praise for getting Derby out of League One (although on his own admission it was a failure not to achieve that at the first attempt) and if he keeps the Rams in the Championship this season then again he will deserve praise.

But David Clowes and Stephen Pearce should already be utilising all the data available to them to ready move on to the next level.

 

                

[HecMacTod]

Comments much appreciated and there is nothing wrong as football fans in agreeing to disagree.

Comrade 86: Not personally a fan of the manager or his style of football but not suggesting change right now, merely pointing out that the club ought to be thinking ahead, especially taking in account the current academy philosophy

Ditto for jcidaho although I agree with you re international break. Hate them. Ditto Gaspode

FindernRam: Respectfully disagree. I do expect our players to be able to hold the ball well against established Championship teams, especially now that we have Goudmijm, Ozoh and Osborn. By all means include long balls in your armoury but surely we can offer more. My feeling is that Warne just doesn't believe in the merit of that style of football.

Could the reason we have no real strike force is that the manager recruited Conor Washington (!!!!), recruited Corey Blackett-Taylor offered a new contract to James Collins (!!!!), send Tony Weston out on loan, seems dead set against giving Dajaune Brown a go and has a low possession and accuracy rate?

You say that some of these academy players maybe ready for action in two or three years “when we are back I the Prem” (let's hope so but-).

But what if they may be ready sooner? What if they are worth a punt (without going out on loan ) like Bird, Knight, Sibley, Cashin, Thompson, Buchanan, Ebosole, Ebiowei, Plange? Would he? Will he?

As for ex-players being “just armchair managers like us”, Darren Robinson has coached at several professional clubs and Eric Steele was on Steve McClaren and Alex Ferguson's coaching staff. Not a bad CV.

Yorkshire Ram: If we have one of the worst squads on paper in the division (sorry but don't agree with you here) but if we have, the manager was given a “competitive” budget by the owner.

If it is a bad squad, that's purely down to the manager and his signings. No one is suggesting we try and play like Manchester City (even Arsenal or Liverpool don't attempt that). As for where we are in the league right now (pointless from away games), that remains to be seen. Very low passing accuracy in some of the hard games.

MadAmster. Sorry no manager should be in a job just because he “deserves” it. He should be there because of the job he is doing and if he is capable of learning, adapting and improving.

FKANNorwichExile: Russell Martin's possession football got them promoted. Not just complaining that we're not winning the right way, but also pointing out that it's not compatible with the sort of players our academy is producing.

Archied: Yes I think he is the wrong man and I've put forward my reasons. But as jcidaho pointed out the international break is boring and everyone is entitled to an opinion. And the debate is fun!

[Derant]

Accomplished midfield players such as Max Bird, Jason Knight and Louis Sibley have chosen to pursue careers elsewhere. Wonder why?

 

Have those three gone onto better things?

[BOB BIGGS]

“Rigg, Bellingham and Neil”…well I think that’s about £50m worth at present. 
 

Perhaps an unfair comparison?

[Eddie]

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[Foreveram]

3 hours ago, HecMacTod said:

Food for thought from a new poster:

In the Covid season 2021 Paul Warne's Rotherham beat Derby County 1-0 at Pride Park (Rotherham possession 35%, Derby 65%, Rotherham passes 237, Derby 429, Rotherham passing accuracy 59% Derby 76%).

In the return fixture Rotherham won 3-0 (Rotherham possession 35% Derby 65%, Rotherham passes 260, Derby 488, Rotherham passing accuracy 57%, derby 77 %).

Fast forward to this season, using FotMob statistics, Paul Warne's Derby County are next to bottom (above Millwall) with 41.3% average possesion and next to bottom (above Millwall) with 244.7 accurate passes per match.

So despite having, on the face of it, better players than his 2021 Rotherham championship squad, Warne has not changed his tactics. He is either not interested in or believes he doesn't possess the necessary qualities in his team to play possession football. Fine you may argue, that's his choice as manager. And it is also fine that some supporters (but not all) don't like watching that style of football.

But in a recent interview for Rams TV under 18 coach Danny Maye talks about trying to get a style of play that develops players for the highest level...ready for the Premier League....not only about working hard, pressing but it's about dominating the ball. He goes on the say that they are often reaching 60/65 per cent possession.

The under 18s currently top a league that includes Manchester United, Manchester City and Liverpool.

What's the point of the academy playing this way if the first team is the complete opposite with a manager seemingly more obsessed with players “gassing out.”

Surely all teams at Derby County, at whatever level, should be consistent in their style of football.

Our local media, hoodwinked by Warne's homespun, folksy, Forest Gump waffle about bobble hats, his dog, his brother, his Benidorm mates, coffee, blah, blah, don't seem interested in asking about why Derby County play this way. Why is there not more emphasis on actually keeping the ball.

The under 21s now include the likes of Cruz Allen, Lennon Wheeldon and Niall McAndrew, all academy products, all now getting international recognition.

If you were their parent or agent, do you think (given the chance that is) their career will advance playing for a side managed by someone whose tactic in some matches is to play Ebou Adams, a whole-hearted and strong tackling individual but with the technical passing skills of a competent League One performer as the most advance midfield close to the strikers and yet the skillful imaginative  Kenzo Goudmijn as the most deep lying holding player despite having scored twice in previous matches.

It's a tactic which has puzzled Radio Derby ex-professionals Eric Steele, Darren Robinson and Malcolm Christie. Me too. Bonkers.

Accomplished midfield players such as Max Bird, Jason Knight and Louis Sibley have chosen to pursue careers elsewhere. Wonder why?

Sunderland midfield Dan Neil in an interview about new manager Regis Le Bris said: "He has definitely brought new ideas, new ways of playing, especially in possession.

"I feel like the way we are playing now is a lot more structured. Everybody knows their roles in and out of possession."

A BBC article adds: “There's no longer the 'pass to the attacking players and hope for the best' kind of mindset that seemed prevalent in the club's recent past.”

Sound familiar?

“Le Bris' style of play hinges on his midfield talent - Rigg, Bellingham and Neil - to create triangles of space on the pitch and build into an attack rather than a gung-ho approach.”

The Rams should be congratulated for upgrading their recruitment department, data analysis, and academy set-up.

Is Paul Warne interested or capable of adapting to the challenges ahead? Or will he stick to tested and tried methods which have brought him success in the past.

He deserves praise for getting Derby out of League One (although on his own admission it was a failure not to achieve that at the first attempt) and if he keeps the Rams in the Championship this season then again he will deserve praise.

But David Clowes and Stephen Pearce should already be utilising all the data available to them to ready move on to the next level.

Sunderland are 19th in the possession stats, less than 1% above the next two above them, so basically similar to ours.

[Anag Ram]

Isn’t it a bit like boxing where the best boxer can be knocked out with one or two punches?

Goals win games, not possession. 

[Archied]

Can’t for the life of me remember the name of that poster who recently departed after foolishly letting it be known he likes to wind others up  , was it mr vpn?

Edited Monday at 17:08 by Archied

[Chellaston Ram]

I have not seen the under 18s or under 21s, but if people are saying they play possession based football,  as the author of this subject as pointed out all our teams should be playing the same style of football.

[hintonsboots]

Good thread and I would suggest DC is perfectly happy with the progress so far. Incoming investment would be useful for the window in January and I am happy with a solid mid table finish this season. My only criticism is not getting the best out of Jerry Yates, he desperately needs a strike partner to take advantage of his link up play.