Paul Warne, managers and plan

[S8TY]

9 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

Is the budget competitive?

I’d argue it’s competitive with Oxford, Portsmouth, Sheffield Wednesday and Plymouth, who are also largely reliant on loans and free transfers to build upon squads that were in League 1 in the last 12-24 months.

That’s only four clubs from 23. The other 19 are ahead of us to varying degrees and can spend millions now or down the road to keep that distance from being closed.

While I do think Warne is not really helping himself with some of his decision making, I don’t think recruitment and our lack of spending power has really helped his cause.

We’ve only spent serious money to replace what we’ve lost. We haven’t really gone out and genuinely improved the squad and as such you can see with each passing game, the task ahead becomes ever clearer. It’s one of survival.

None of us are privy to what Warne wanted but all I am saying is we should be recruiting to a plan and having a plan that doesn't mean we are constantly playing like a L1 side against Championship sides.

Mac for example got Clough's team playing lovely stuff and very attack minded but Clough struggled because he was fairly negative at times but recruited well within a tight budget

I'm not bashing Warne I'm saying we have to weigh up all of our options including the recruitment and manager its an ongoing process and playing how we are currently won't be good enough for Championship survival if it continues

[Jourdan]

2 minutes ago, S8TY said:

None of us are privy to what Warne wanted but all I am saying is we should be recruiting to a plan and having a plan that doesn't mean we are constantly playing like a L1 side against Championship sides.

Mac for example got Clough's team playing lovely stuff and very attack minded but Clough struggled because he was fairly negative at times but recruited well within a tight budget

I'm not bashing Warne I'm saying we have to weigh up all of our options including the recruitment and manager its an ongoing process and playing how we are currently won't be good enough for Championship survival if it continues

Most of our successful sides in the Championship have needed time for foundations to be built.

It’s ancient history but the team that thrived under McClaren took five painstaking years to build. The team that thrived under Burley needed time and toil too. We were awful for 18-24 months before it clicked.

We are building on a squad coming up from League One and we have had one transfer window to spend fees and go out and attract Championship ready players or scaleable young talent. The business plan of previous years prevented that.

Warne needs time and most importantly some help to make us truly competitive, because what our players can do and the plan he wants them to implement, it’s not unique or against the grain. There are clubs in the Championship that can spend more and get players who can simply do it better and make it look more polished.

[Ambitious]

55 minutes ago, S8TY said:

Yes fair enough but this is probably where our opinions differ, regardless of level of funding have we got the right manager to get us playing football and competing at this level,there are plenty of examples where managers have managed to get the so called lesser sides playing decent football and being technically able to compete, even when Clough was here we recruited well and played some decent stuff at times but Mac  worked with the players he inherited from Clough and took the same players to another level we were brave on the ball and played some of the best football I've seen as a Derby fan with the same squad plus a few additions mainly loans that is what we need now so its not a Warne bashing message but more a message that we maybe need someone different if it starts to look like we are struggling. 

My fear is that Warne ( who i genuinely like as a person ) is maybe out of his depth regarding being the right man to engineer a team capable of competing under the current circumstances because there is no point just saying " if we are relegated " I want a manager who is going to be able to keep us afloat and still be competitive under our current budget 

There is no point saying " oh well we didn't have the means to be able to stay up" when a good manager and tactician will give us that chance, this is no slur on Warne he done a good job getting us out of L1, but that's history now and like everything in football times change and decisions might have to be made

If DC genuinely thinks that the budget is competitive enough then I believe him , he said as much at end of season, we now have to make sure we have the correct person at the helm to be able to implement a team performance each week to keep us in this division , relegation is not an option or an excuse

I completely understand the view, don't get me wrong. It's exactly the reason why there has been 60+ permanent managerial appointments at Championship level since the 21/22 season. Everyone wants the guy who is going to revolutionise their club and are willing to throw people on the scrapheap at the first sign of imperfection or impurities in the system. 

I've credited Warne as a manager who has achieved to his budgetary restraints in every season he's been at management and had a full-season. I'm not being facetious or even being pro-Warne, I'm stating factually that he's achieved. He has. The relegations with Rotherham were simply down to them not being competitive at this level financially. He had 40 points in 18/19, finishing above Ipswich & Bolton, four points off safety. He had 42 points in 20-21, two points off safety. The first full season without him, Rotherham finished on 27 points, 24 points off safety. There is the context. 

We could bring in Ian Evatt, for example, who would impose a more aesthetically pleasing brand of football and coaching style. He would bring in his own frustrations. Whoever we bring in, regardless of their past or coaching badges, is going to cause frustration. The amount of managerial changes at this level is beyond stupid and reckless, but when you look now: 3 league games in and more than half the clubs at this level have discussions about sacking their manager and almost all of them have in the past 12 months. 

It's a toxic, reactionary business at this level. Do I admit that sacking Warne could lead to a better outcome both short and long-term, of course. How likely it is, however, is a completely different question. I'd be interested to see who Clowes' would go for and whether he would play it safe: Ryan Lowe or roll the dice a little with someone like Brian Barry Murphy. 

I suspect the former. 

[S8TY]

24 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

Most of our successful sides in the Championship have needed time for foundations to be built.

It’s ancient history but the team that thrived under McClaren took five painstaking years to build. The team that thrived under Burley needed time and toil too. We were awful for 18-24 months before it clicked.

We are building on a squad coming up from League One and we have had one transfer window to spend fees and go out and attract Championship ready players or scaleable young talent. The business plan of previous years prevented that.

Warne needs time and most importantly some help to make us truly competitive, because what our players can do and the plan he wants them to implement, it’s not unique or against the grain. There are clubs in the Championship that can spend more and get players who can simply do it better and make it look more polished.

ok so here is my question, what do you think is required to keep us in this league because believe me we don't want to be going back down as L1 was poor last season and we certainly wouldn't want to be in L1 this season as it looks tough , by the way we don't have loads of time we need to get us firing and competitive this season we don't have the time to build we just need to be good enough to compete and stay up Warne maybe able to do that but i would like us to be more forward thinking I personally think we need to look like we want to win games rather than not lose 

The point i was making about Clough was , he got players on a shoestring and showed you can find hidden gems so its not all about money and it was Mac that got us playing some decent stuff 

[S8TY]

5 minutes ago, Ambitious said:

I completely understand the view, don't get me wrong. It's exactly the reason why there has been 60+ permanent managerial appointments at Championship level since the 21/22 season. Everyone wants the guy who is going to revolutionise their club and are willing to throw people on the scrapheap at the first sign of imperfection or impurities in the system. 

I've credited Warne as a manager who has achieved to his budgetary restraints in every season he's been at management and had a full-season. I'm not being facetious or even being pro-Warne, I'm stating factually that he's achieved. He has. The relegations with Rotherham were simply down to them not being competitive at this level financially. He had 40 points in 18/19, finishing above Ipswich & Bolton, four points off safety. He had 42 points in 20-21, two points off safety. The first full season without him, Rotherham finished on 27 points, 24 points off safety. There is the context. 

We could bring in Ian Evatt, for example, who would impose a more aesthetically pleasing brand of football and coaching style. He would bring in his own frustrations. Whoever we bring in, regardless of their past or coaching badges, is going to cause frustration. The amount of managerial changes at this level is beyond stupid and reckless, but when you look now: 3 league games in and more than half the clubs at this level have discussions about sacking their manager and almost all of them have in the past 12 months. 

It's a toxic, reactionary business at this level. Do I admit that sacking Warne could lead to a better outcome both short and long-term, of course. How likely it is, however, is a completely different question. I'd be interested to see who Clowes' would go for and whether he would play it safe: Ryan Lowe or roll the dice a little with someone like Brian Barry Murphy. 

I suspect the former. 

Yes great points I would not say Evatt is any better at Championship level than Warne but if push come to shove and it meant us staying up I'd say managers like Dean Smith or Mark Warburton are good examples of two managers who got teams  playing some great stuff, I remember vividly seeing Warburton's Brentford side play us off of the pitch at PP and I kept looking at the programme to see who certain Brentford players were ? as they were unknown types who played with a swagger and were great to watch and had a great team ethic and played some scintillating football that day , there are options and I'd like Warne to succeed but going down is not an option we need to be looking ahead now not backwards

[Ambitious]

2 minutes ago, S8TY said:

Yes great points I would not say Evatt is any better at Championship level than Warne but if push come to shove and it meant us staying up I'd say managers like Dean Smith or Mark Warburton are good examples of two managers who got teams  playing some great stuff, I remember vividly seeing Warburton's Brentford side play us off of the pitch at PP and I kept looking at the programme to see who certain Brentford players were ? as they were unknown types who played with a swagger and were great to watch and had a great team ethic and played some scintillating football that day , there are options and I'd like Warne to succeed but going down is not an option we need to be looking ahead now not backwards

Both managers were also supported by an excellent recruitment strategy whilst at Brentford which was going under the radar at the time. They’ve both struggled, or at least not impressed, since then.

[SaintRam]

I vote for returning to the ways of handing newly retired England internationals their first managerial position. Glorious chaos.

[Dcfcsr92]

5 hours ago, Jourdan said:

Most of our successful sides in the Championship have needed time for foundations to be built.

It’s ancient history but the team that thrived under McClaren took five painstaking years to build. The team that thrived under Burley needed time and toil too. We were awful for 18-24 months before it clicked.

We are building on a squad coming up from League One and we have had one transfer window to spend fees and go out and attract Championship ready players or scaleable young talent. The business plan of previous years prevented that.

Warne needs time and most importantly some help to make us truly competitive, because what our players can do and the plan he wants them to implement, it’s not unique or against the grain. There are clubs in the Championship that can spend more and get players who can simply do it better and make it look more polished.

That's not always true. Nelson, mcgoldick  and hourihane all were interested in by championship teams but rosenior managed to talk them around to signing due to his views on how he wanted to play. Maybe paul Warne doesn't have such pulling power and that's why we miss out on players? (I'm not saying all players but a few)

[i-Ram]

5 hours ago, S8TY said:

Yes great points I would not say Evatt is any better at Championship level than Warne but if push come to shove and it meant us staying up I'd say managers like Dean Smith or Mark Warburton are good examples of two managers who got teams  playing some great stuff, I remember vividly seeing Warburton's Brentford side play us off of the pitch at PP and I kept looking at the programme to see who certain Brentford players were ? as they were unknown types who played with a swagger and were great to watch and had a great team ethic and played some scintillating football that day , there are options and I'd like Warne to succeed but going down is not an option we need to be looking ahead now not backwards

We are in a position this season, probably next, where we don’t need a manager trying to get us playing some great stuff.

We need a manager who will get us organised, passing to each other, valuing ball possession, using (rather than bypassing) midfielders, having a set formation/style that marries with the academy, and gives our youth players some hope that they will get chances to step up.

Warne it seems is a great bloke, and his strength is clearly man management. He succeeds in lower league campaigns because his methods are tailored to fitness and percentage gains (set piece goals, and winning more second ball challenges in and around either box).

He is not a coach. He doesn’t improve players. He doesn’t trust young inexperienced players. He doesn’t know really his favourite formation, or how to recruit for it.

Given the squad we have now, we should be moving heaven and hell to get ourselves a decent centre back, and a forward that might link up well alongside Yates. Play 343. Play through midfield. Forget the obsession to hit it long and wide. I think we can still stay up. I think Warne has some qualities that could/should make that happen. But I am not and never will be persuaded he is the right fit for us. I am grateful he got us up, but I think we have more chance making progress (or simply consolidating) over the coming years with a new man in charge.

[Marriot Ram99]

Can just imagine us losing 3 0 Saturday with Bird scoring a screamer and celebrating and Warne running on the pitch to butt him as frustation comes to boil from his poundland budget. Then we sign a 34 year old target man from Rotherham with dodgy knees but great banta to top it off.

[MadAmster]

12 hours ago, The Scarlet Pimpernel said:

Say £1.5m for that lot which still leaves an awful lot unaccounted for.

The Academy is said to cost £5M a year...

[IlsonDerby]

9 hours ago, Eoghan1884 said:

In a perfect world Warne takes this squad (which is no better than a relegation scrapping team) and keeps us up. Then we get a new manager in at the end of the season to take over with hopefully new investment. The simple fact of the matter is no manager could come in and make Bradley, Elder, Nelson, Ebou play nice passing football. No manager could come in and make Collo, Barkhuizen and Ward have good end product to play at championship level.
 

These are players which were signed on a shoestring budget and during a business plan and a time of near extinction which were brought in for the simple fact of getting us promoted which happened. Warne is a good man who plays football the way he does (FYI every manager plays how they want) it’s not his fault he was appointed and given the job of promoting us and then stabilising us, which half of is already completed. 
 

I do know one thing though, Warne is a good man who cares and yes a lot of people don’t like him but nearly every player who’s played under him seems to think he’s a good man who gets it. So if we could get behind the team and Warne I know for a fact it’ll help us as a club a hell of a lot more than moaning about every little thing and things out of our control on the pitch.

I take issue with this. They’re paid professional footballers.
 

League 2 teams play nice football with worse players than us. 
 

Hell, Bucko wasn’t exactly a rolls Royce but was trusted to play… 

Edited August 28 by IlsonDerby

[RoyMac5]

8 hours ago, Ambitious said:

Both managers were also supported by an excellent recruitment strategy whilst at Brentford which was going under the radar at the time. They’ve both struggled, or at least not impressed, since then.

We don't know who Warne has turned down because they aren't what he wants. But we do know he 'turned down' Waggy until he met him at Fozzy testimonial.

Edited August 28 by RoyMac5

[Crewton]

2 hours ago, Marriot Ram99 said:

Can just imagine us losing 3 0 Saturday with Bird scoring a screamer and celebrating and Warne running on the pitch to butt him as frustation comes to boil from his poundland budget. Then we sign a 34 year old target man from Rotherham with dodgy knees but great banta to top it off.

Have you imagined the time of the first goal too? Let me know, I might win a few quid.

[Ram-Alf]

11 hours ago, Chris_Martin said:

come on then, lets hear it. How are the warne supporters defending that one? 

Nobody can...it's undefendable, PW has to look at PW and say...can I be a success at Derby in a higher division or not, Can I motivate players or not, Can I set my tactics up to defeat the opposition or not, Can I spend transfer money wisely or not, Have I got the right team behind me or not, Have I still the confidence of the owner or not.

Last nights performance gives the "nay sayers" a machine gun with a magazine full of bullets to shoot him down, I said my piece on the game in the match thread...but on PW...must do better with what he's got at DCFC.

 

[Premier ram]

11 hours ago, S8TY said:

ok so here is my question, what do you think is required to keep us in this league because believe me we don't want to be going back down as L1 was poor last season and we certainly wouldn't want to be in L1 this season as it looks tough , by the way we don't have loads of time we need to get us firing and competitive this season we don't have the time to build we just need to be good enough to compete and stay up Warne maybe able to do that but i would like us to be more forward thinking I personally think we need to look like we want to win games rather than not lose 

The point i was making about Clough was , he got players on a shoestring and showed you can find hidden gems so its not all about money and it was Mac that got us playing some decent stuff 

Been to all the games so far , we were discussing what we thought we needed in the car on the way home last night and we all agreed a streetwise no nonsense captain would be top of our lists , still too nice as a team , obviously a centre forward , a mate mentioned Jutkiewicz , wouldn’t be against this, get these two roles filled and add a pacy centre back and we have enough to survive this season

[Ram-Alf]

1 hour ago, Premier ram said:

Been to all the games so far , we were discussing what we thought we needed in the car on the way home last night and we all agreed a streetwise no nonsense captain would be top of our lists , still too nice as a team , obviously a centre forward , a mate mentioned Jutkiewicz , wouldn’t be against this, get these two roles filled and add a pacy centre back and we have enough to survive this season

This in a nutshell...imo

[Ghost of Clough]

13 hours ago, Ambitious said:

I completely understand the view, don't get me wrong. It's exactly the reason why there has been 60+ permanent managerial appointments at Championship level since the 21/22 season. Everyone wants the guy who is going to revolutionise their club and are willing to throw people on the scrapheap at the first sign of imperfection or impurities in the system. 

I've credited Warne as a manager who has achieved to his budgetary restraints in every season he's been at management and had a full-season. I'm not being facetious or even being pro-Warne, I'm stating factually that he's achieved. He has. The relegations with Rotherham were simply down to them not being competitive at this level financially. He had 40 points in 18/19, finishing above Ipswich & Bolton, four points off safety. He had 42 points in 20-21, two points off safety. The first full season without him, Rotherham finished on 27 points, 24 points off safety. There is the context. 

We could bring in Ian Evatt, for example, who would impose a more aesthetically pleasing brand of football and coaching style. He would bring in his own frustrations. Whoever we bring in, regardless of their past or coaching badges, is going to cause frustration. The amount of managerial changes at this level is beyond stupid and reckless, but when you look now: 3 league games in and more than half the clubs at this level have discussions about sacking their manager and almost all of them have in the past 12 months. 

It's a toxic, reactionary business at this level. Do I admit that sacking Warne could lead to a better outcome both short and long-term, of course. How likely it is, however, is a completely different question. I'd be interested to see who Clowes' would go for and whether he would play it safe: Ryan Lowe or roll the dice a little with someone like Brian Barry Murphy. 

I suspect the former. 

Robbie Keane had a very good first season in management with Tel-Aviv, winning the league and cup. Rory Delap was part of his coaching team there as well. Favoring a 433 possession based approach. Last season, his side would look for quick breaks but were also patient if those breaks weren't available. In possession, the fullbacks tuck inside, similar to how Rosenior was setting us up (setting up as 2 CBs and 3 DMs) ensuring passing options are always available, but also making it easier to win the ball back quickly.

Gary Bowyer would do a steady job. Style of play is lacking, but is used to a tight budget, will have knowledge of the Scottish leagues (a market we should be looking at). He has a very good talent for managing young players and improveing them. Someone to potentially move into a Sporting Director role too.

[trappatoni]

1 hour ago, Ram-Alf said:

This in a nutshell...imo

Who would you say is too nice?   Ozoh and Adams are both physical players, Bradley, Nelson, Collins, Nyambe, Cashin are all happy to get ina physical battle.   I wouldn't say we are too nice or as Warne does lacking in physicality or athleticism - for me we need to start using the football better.   

Edited August 28 by trappatoni

[Ram-Alf]

2 minutes ago, trappatoni said:

Who would you say is too nice?   Ozoh and Adams are both physical players, Bradley, Nelson, Collins, Nyambe, Cashin are all happy to get ina physical battle.   I wouldn't say we are too nice or as Warne does lacking in physicality or athleticism - for me we need to start using the football better.   

Maybe I'm to "old school" Roy Mac, Colin Todd, Gemmill, Carlin, Newton, Rioch and others were players who couldn't be intimidated, In todays world "the enforcers" are to far and few between.

The ones you've mentioned above would be OK to read a good bedtime story, A match can be won in the 1st 5mins break down their midfield and game set and match.

Except for Cashin all the above played last night and were out muscled and out Faught 👍