Derby County Financial Accounts

[Crewton]

6 minutes ago, Jubbs said:

Not sure on that, he's been quite complimentary of Clowes and has ranked the accounts as a "B+"

 

Noted, though it took someone to ask. It's just the tone of his posts - it always seems that he's having a dig.

[rammieib]

10 minutes ago, Jubbs said:

Not sure on that, he's been quite complimentary of Clowes and has ranked the accounts as a "B+"

 

What does that question even mean? Are they asking about the quality on information within the accounts or are they asking about the financial stability of the club?

[Chesterfield_Ram]

40 minutes ago, eddielewis said:

Interesting how were only at 45% turnover/spend when league 1 clubs can be up to 75%.

Be a good question to ask how far close to the limit would Clowes take the playing budget when the restrictions are lifted.

We get tarnished by other clubs around us that were big spenders but it's far from the case.

It would be good to know that information as a fan base. But the club might be reluctant to share as selling clubs will get a better understanding of the clubs transfer budget, so might inflate prices.

[Chesterfield_Ram]

4 minutes ago, rammieib said:

What does that question even mean? Are they asking about the quality on information within the accounts or are they asking about the financial stability of the club?

It appears he’s talking about the financial stability of the club. Essentially, he’s getting at the club have lost money, but thats a result of the handling of the club by Morris and quantuma. The club could have potentially been in a far worse place had Clowes not run it as well as he has.

[Chesterfield_Ram]

10 minutes ago, Crewton said:

Noted, though it took someone to ask. It's just the tone of his posts - it always seems that he's having a dig.

I think his tone comes from looking purely at the figures. His thread was basically the accounts say the club spent x, the accounts say the club lost x, the accounts say the club had x income. He didn’t appear to infer anything, such as the club giving the shirt sponsorship to charity last season, but that’s the way he approaches his work.

[Ram-Alf]

1 hour ago, Stive Pesley said:

Quantuma was allegedly "specialists" in sports club administration weren't they? And they appeared to really struggle.

In which case it would be a fair bet that a common or garden insolvency practitioner would have been an even bigger debacle

One of them worked for Grant-Thornton Administrators, They took on the job when Motormania/Midland Car Parts/Richard Hartley went into Admin, We were getting updates of how much GT were spending/receiving...it was eye watering...we the employees lost quite a bit of loot 😡   

Edited March 8 by Ram-Alf

[RadioactiveWaste]

1 hour ago, Stive Pesley said:

I hadn't really thought much about the shirt sponsor being "given away" to the NSPCC, but presumably a commercial sponsor would be paying quite a lot of money (£100k+?) to be the main sponsor on the shirt of a club the size of Derby, so donating that spot to the NSPCC would count as a charitable donation and lower our tax bill?

No I don't think so - we just didn't earn anything from a shirt sponsor last season,I doubt that counts as a donation in tax terms.

I think I've I remember we did that because we only got taking the piss offers to sponsor the shirt and the commercial decision was taken that it'd be better to have a big charity on there for nothing than accepting very lowball offers, making the sponsorship more valuable in future seasons.

[CornwallRam]

c£10m on non player wages seems very high. Especially as a lot of staff were made redundant during admin. Is there any detail on that?

[Chester40]

13 minutes ago, CornwallRam said:

c£10m on non player wages seems very high. Especially as a lot of staff were made redundant during admin. Is there any detail on that?

Warne et al...? Plus Medical staff, groundsmen,  stewards, catering, ticket office, general office/admin, stadium upkeep, advertising,  sales team,  revenue generation, academy staff, cleaners,  maintenance, security ... guess it could be quite a lot of people still.

Wonder what it was like before... 

[Crewton]

25 minutes ago, Chesterfield_Ram said:

I think his tone comes from looking purely at the figures. His thread was basically the accounts say the club spent x, the accounts say the club lost x, the accounts say the club had x income. He didn’t appear to infer anything, such as the club giving the shirt sponsorship to charity last season, but that’s the way he approaches his work.

Well here's an example of what I'm referring to:

"Derby paying rent of £872k a year for Pride Park. Low yield compare to the £80m stadium sold for to an MM company a few years ago."

Do you know anyone else who works out the yield on an investment based on an obsolete valuation rather than what they paid for the asset? 

To me, it just looks like he's taking an opportunity to mention a contentious valuation that he disagreed with.

[Stive Pesley]

24 minutes ago, RadioactiveWaste said:

No I don't think so - we just didn't earn anything from a shirt sponsor last season,I doubt that counts as a donation in tax terms.

I think I've I remember we did that because we only got taking the piss offers to sponsor the shirt and the commercial decision was taken that it'd be better to have a big charity on there for nothing than accepting very lowball offers, making the sponsorship more valuable in future seasons.

Hmm - but realistically we could "give it away" to a charity or we could class it as a charitable donation and reduce our tax burden as a result. Which do you think the accountants of a cash-strapped large football club would recommend?

[Barney1991]

So judging by this if we don’t include come out of admin etc with the revenue at 20 million if this carries on and the wage bill stays the same and staff etc with birds sale and we don’t go up we should start running at a profit by those figures in future years if not promoted? 

Edited March 8 by Barney1991

[Ram@Lincoln]

1 hour ago, Stive Pesley said:

I hadn't really thought much about the shirt sponsor being "given away" to the NSPCC, but presumably a commercial sponsor would be paying quite a lot of money (£100k+?) to be the main sponsor on the shirt of a club the size of Derby, so donating that spot to the NSPCC would count as a charitable donation and lower our tax bill?

Sponsorship income for the Three Amigos, Gadsby and GSE years prior to Mel Morris' spending frenzy;

2004: £1.3m - 2005: £1.2m - 2006: £1.2m - 2007: £1.0m - 2008: £1.7m

2009: £2.4m - 2010: £2.2m - 2011: £2.1m - 2012: £2.0m - 2013: £1.8m

2014: £2.6m 2015: £2.9m 2016: £3.0m 2017: £5.0m 2018: £5.0m

2019: N/A 2020: N/A 2021: N/A 2022: N/A 2023: £1.4m

For the GSE years, prior to the Mel Morris silly seasons (2008-2013) we averaged £2.0m on sponsorship. Including the Gadsby and Three Amigos years brings it down to £1.7m. Therefore, to sit at £1.4m for the past financial year having gifted arguably the largest sponsorship product is excellent reading.

After reading various news articles of Championship clubs regarding front of shirt sponsorship costs, it appears £200-600k per season appears the normal range. Obviously relegation to League One will reduce the potential fee we could charge, however the size of the club and high profile would still demand a premium. With all this in mind, £1.4m is £300-600k off the average range of £1.7-2.0m without a front of shirt sponsorship. If we dip expectations and assume £1.7m is a reasonable figure for a club of our size in League One, that would suggest a sponsorship cost of around £300k. 

For League One comparisons, Ipswich had a sponsorship turnover of £2.0m in 2021 and £3.4m in 2022 - the later year being when Ed Sheeran became front of shirt sponsor for his boyhood club. Sunderland while in League One had sponsorship revenues of £1.3 (2022) and £1.1m (2021). Sheffield Wednesday and Bolton don't give a sponsorship specific line in their accounts. Taking the average of the two, £1.3m and £2.0m at £1.65m that would align with the £1.7m previously mentioned. Therefore, I'd assume £250-300k would be about the level for the front of shirt sponsor for Derby in League One.

For a slightly different comparison, the iPro stadium sponsorship was reported at £7m for 10 years, so £700k a season.

Edited March 8 by Ram@Lincoln

[Sparkle]

1 hour ago, eddielewis said:

Interesting how were only at 45% turnover/spend when league 1 clubs can be up to 75%.

Be a good question to ask how far close to the limit would Clowes take the playing budget when the restrictions are lifted.

We get tarnished by other clubs around us that were big spenders but it's far from the case.

Well at the end of the day Clowes is paying the debt so it’s his choice and it’s his choice to eventually recoup some profit - so probably best not to be too optimistic on signing players for larger fees than we have been doing 

[duncanjwitham]

Presumably the £2.1m is for Bielik and Knight?  Possibly Bird too, although I suspect that might be too far in the future to count for this section.

[Rich84]

2 hours ago, RoyMac5 said:

 

Just to add to the Maguire take on things, he is quoting the total wages rather than the 1st team playing staff which is what is required for compliance,  as stated in the Telegraph reporting etc....

All other clubs fans will read his sh¡t and think our playing staff wages are £17.2m over 13 months....

He is disingenuous at best and needs to look at the likes of Snotts Forests spending instead of us !

[Ghost of Clough]

8 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said:

Presumably the £2.1m is for Bielik and Knight?  Possibly Bird too, although I suspect that might be too far in the future to count for this section.

Post balance sheet events are usually transfers in the summer period following the accounting period. In this case, it's summer 2023.

Almost all of that £1.6m book value will relate to Bielik who was sold for an estimated £500k. Knight as the only other summer sale being the remaining £1.6m received. 

The £264k is anyone's guess, but I think it's likely a 25% sell-on was agreed with Werder Bremen for Buchanan.

[SamUltraRam]

56 minutes ago, CornwallRam said:

c£10m on non player wages seems very high. Especially as a lot of staff were made redundant during admin. Is there any detail on that?

That's what i'm thinking

I have no idea how many employees we have at DCFC but that's the equivalent of 50 employees on £100k pa plus 100 employees on £50k pa

[MadAmster]

Income £20M. Total wage bill of all players and staff 17.2M. Ground Rent £850K. Gas and electric on top of that. Rental and gas etc at Moor Farm - no idea. Looks like "break even" but only because the parent company filled the gap with an interest free loan in excess of £35M.

Full report available at https://www.dcfc.co.uk/media/get/Derby County (The Rams) Limited - 30 June 2023 080324.pdf

[MadAmster]

2 hours ago, eddielewis said:

Interesting how were only at 45% turnover/spend when league 1 clubs can be up to 75%.

Be a good question to ask how far close to the limit would Clowes take the playing budget when the restrictions are lifted.

We get tarnished by other clubs around us that were big spenders but it's far from the case.

If we went to 75% for the playing staff and then added the £10M for the non playing staff we'd be in the red...  and even further so with all the other costs.