Sheffield Wednesday (A) Sun 7th May, 12:00 KO

[Grumpy Git]

7 minutes ago, Loughborough Ram said:

Having said all of that, how f****** appropriate that we should lose the last, and most important, game of the season to a poor refereeing decision

This 100%

[Andicis]

2 hours ago, walkleyowl said:

You were f****** w***

Get a life pal. I can understand why you aren't wanted on Owlstalk. 

[Jourdan]

22 minutes ago, LeedsCityRam said:

No offence Jourdan but that is a weak defence. You are in essence saying Warne & the players are fibbing on camera to keep the fans happy because their obvious disappointment at missing out contradicts your opinion. And the notion that an honourable resignation is the only true confirmation of failure is very far-fetched.

The players will have expected to finish top 6 after returning there after the Burton win (and having been there most of the past 4 months) & had two bites of the cherry last week and this to secure our spot. Of course they will see it as failure - I'd question their professional ambition if they didn't. I don't disagree that we have never looked like one of the top 3 teams but I'm struggling to think of anyone who legitimately thought top 2/3 was achievable - I certainly didn't. 6th on the other hand very much was in our grasp & we haven't done it.

And like I said earlier, disagreeing with you doesn't imply bias. You've cleared stated your position from the start with Warne & are relentless in sticking to that, which is fine but means you're not really best placed to comment on a lack of balance from others.

And what’s my position?

I wanted to give a manager with a good track record and experience in the division a chance, yes. I wanted him to succeed, yes.

I think he deserves time to bring in his own players and put his stamp on things and not be written off after less than a season and marginally missing out on the play offs in the challenging circumstances he inherited, yes.

If that’s all I am guilty of, I can live with that. 

Next season is a completely different animal and Warne should be held to a different standard. He will have a full summer window to operate in, a full pre season to embed exactly what he wants, and everyone starts on zero. Any disadvantages he will have can be countered with months of careful and considered strategic planning.

I think we will be placed amongst the frontrunners given what we know about the division as it is, the instability of the teams coming down and the strength of the teams going up. Last summer ask a random Derby fan and we could have finished anywhere from 1st to 14th.

Next season, we will have much more clarity. Warne needs a strong start next season and he needs promotion next season, or people’s patience will genuinely desert him. 

If you are upset that people would suggest you are not being fair, perhaps don’t draw up Excel spreadsheets and come across like you’re only furthering an agenda?

See you in August!

[plymouthram]

6 hours ago, Jourdan said:

I think two words define this season: fine margins. Since February, we’ve fallen on the wrong side of them every time. 

The players gave everything today and the performance was a creditable one. The game hinged on one mistake and sometimes in football that’s all it takes.

Some might deem this season a failure and the anti-Warne sentiment will no doubt be in overdrive over the coming days and weeks, but it’s needless.

Personally I don’t think at any point we’ve looked like one of the three best teams in the division, so I don’t think there should be much of a hangover if any at all. The signs have been there that it is simply one season too soon.

We just have to lick our wounds, regroup quickly, have a positive rebuild over the summer and go out and finish in the top two in 23-24.

Not going into the Championship with this group of players and under financial restrictions could turn out to be a blessing in disguise.

I said this a few weeks ago and the sentiment remains - this is where Warne’s work really starts.

Good post, I was speaking to my brother after the game today and he made similar comments to what you have stated. Getting promoted whilst under some sort of business plan (Alleged to be reviewed soon) would have seen us struggle in the Championship.

[nottingram]

34 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

And what’s my position?

I wanted to give a manager with a good track record and experience in the division a chance, yes. I wanted him to succeed, yes.

I think he deserves time to bring in his own players and put his stamp on things and not be written off after less than a season and marginally missing out on the play offs in the challenging circumstances he inherited, yes.

If that’s all I am guilty of, I can live with that. 

Next season is a completely different animal and Warne should be held to a different standard. He will have a full summer window to operate in, a full pre season to embed exactly what he wants, and everyone starts on zero. Any disadvantages he will have can be countered with months of careful and considered strategic planning.

I think we will be placed amongst the frontrunners given what we know about the division as it is, the instability of the teams coming down and the strength of the teams going up. Last summer ask a random Derby fan and we could have finished anywhere from 1st to 14th.

Next season, we will have much more clarity. Warne needs a strong start next season and he needs promotion next season, or people’s patience will genuinely desert him. 

If you are upset that people would suggest you are not being fair, perhaps don’t draw up Excel spreadsheets and come across like you’re only furthering an agenda?

See you in August!

This is fine and all makes perfect sense but doesn’t actually diminish much of what people are saying about Warne.

You can count on one hand the number of people who actively want him out, it’s pointless because barely anyone actually thinks that. But there are legitimate concerns that can’t just be brushed under the carpet despite posters getting their throats jumped down as soon as they say them. Our record is crap against top half teams. We have had an alarming drop off since February. We have blown multiple chances to get into the play offs etc etc. 

You then have, and I mean no disrespect by this but it is true, all this coming from a poster who has regularly wanted managers sacked. And that is managers who haven’t been in post long, or who have inherited (far more so than Warne) difficult circumstances under which to operate. And it makes it all look a bit confusing. It’s great you want to give him time but given you’ve been so vocal about managers in the past I don’t think it’s a great look to be getting on at people for not being jubilant about a manager who, so far, has done a job that could probably be argued as ranging between poor to maybe just above average.

[Andicis]

Just now, nottingram said:

or who have inherited (far more so than Warne) difficult circumstances under which to operate

Sorry? Other than Rooney? At least Rosenior was given the chance to recruit his own players. I fail to see who recently has had a tougher hand dealt than Warne not named Wayne Rooney.

[alram]

1 hour ago, G STAR RAM said:

In what way is your striker scoring goals, digging you out of a hole? 😂

Do you think Haaland has dug Man City out of a hole this season?

No because Haaland could get injured and they wouldn’t be reliant on him or struggle

 

if mcgoldrick level drops or he’s injured who is scoring the goals in our team

[strawhillram]

3 hours ago, walkleyowl said:

You were f****** w***

So speaks w**key owl. What a t****er.

 Well be playing you next season.

[Jourdan]

2 minutes ago, nottingram said:

This is fine and all makes perfect sense but doesn’t actually diminish much of what people are saying about Warne.

You can count on one hand the number of people who actively want him out, it’s pointless because barely anyone actually thinks that. But there are legitimate concerns that can’t just be brushed under the carpet despite posters getting their throats jumped down as soon as they say them. Our record is crap against top half teams. We have had an alarming drop off since February. We have blown multiple chances to get into the play offs etc etc. 

You then have, and I mean no disrespect by this but it is true, all this coming from a poster who has regularly wanted managers sacked. And that is managers who haven’t been in post long, or who have inherited (far more so than Warne) difficult circumstances under which to operate. And it makes it all look a bit confusing. It’s great you want to give him time but given you’ve been so vocal about managers in the past I don’t think it’s a great look to be getting on at people for not being jubilant about a manager who, so far, has done a job that could probably be argued as ranging between poor to maybe just above average.

Who is saying people should be jubilant? I am not jubilant. I am thoroughly disappointed and frustrated.

I have not even said Warne has done a successful job. I have said this season has been a learning curve and next season is the season to expect and demand success as we should, in theory, be better placed for that.

People are more than entitled to their concerns, but it’s all in the way you put them across.

I don’t really understand what is confusing. I think Warne was a sensible appointment given his track record and in time I think he will prove that.

Should next season be a disaster, then of course those who have advocated for him like myself will look silly.

When I was vocal about previous managers like Cocu, Rooney and Rosenior, getting pushback was the norm. Why should those in the anti Warne brigade be immune?

I think it’s fair game if you are not rude or disrespectful.

[CapeTownRams]

Fact is what we got want we deserved. This side should be more than good enough to get out of League 1. Right up until last week we had the chance to secure top 6.

[Rammy03]

9 minutes ago, caymanram said:

Fact is what we got want we deserved. This side should be more than good enough to get out of League 1. Right up until last week we had the chance to secure top 6.

It's a good team and I really thought we would get in the playoffs I'm still a bit shell shocked that we actually haven't made it.

But the team isn't as good as some of us think it is. There are still holes there and Warne has been getting on at this for a while. We had that fantastic run but that's all it was, a great run because we weren't good enough to sustain it over a season.

We have a good team but we still lack something. Some of the players really aren't as good as we think they are. Cashin has been fantastic but our other academy graduates haven't exactly ripped the league up. Some players such as Dobbin and Roberts have been learning their trade, some players are past their best. Without McGoldrick we seriously lack goals. Fact. 

I'm disappointed but already looking forward to next season. The foundations are there, we're not a million miles away. We have a few positions to fill but with some good recruitment I really think we can have a crack at the top 2.

[May Contain Nuts]

1 hour ago, Andicis said:

Sorry? Other than Rooney? At least Rosenior was given the chance to recruit his own players. I fail to see who recently has had a tougher hand dealt than Warne not named Wayne Rooney.

Depends on the expectations of the fans, owner, and what the manager believes he's walking into vs the reality.

The end-days of Rowett - told that he'd need to focus on the youth team, budgets would be cut... jumps ship. Most people don't remember him fondly at all.

Lampard - a 180 by Morris and he's given whatever he wanted. carried through the season by the class of Tomori, Mount & Wilson. Some awful management at times, but mostly forgotten because of Leeds away in the playoffs. Expectations of promotion not quite met, especially in hindsight.

Cocu - Season 1 - Expectations are top 6 again, pick up from where Lampard left off. However he doesn't get a proper pre-season with the squad due to Lampard pissing about. he takes over a squad with the 3 best players removed and the demands from above are to integrate as many academy players into the first team as possible. He is backed in the transfer market, with the fee for Bielik being particularly egregious but our record signing goes on to get injured for a long spell (rug pull 1). He then has to deal with Joiners Gate (rug pull 2) and the loss of the club captain and defensive staple (one we'd built a lot of our play around the passing abilities of). Further to that there's a global pandemic (rug pull 3) which removes fans from the stadium. A good run in the second half of the season sees us potentially pushing for a play-off spot but we fall away. He's bedded in the youngsters well, with some of their performances being better during that spell than anything they've produced since. 

Of course this isn't good enough for certain people, who've been criticising him from the moment he walked through the door because they don't like his style of play. Every single opportunity 'certain posters' got to say that they weren't a fan was taken. His interviews are mocked by people because of his manner of speaking. He's just too Dutch.

Season 2 - Same again, play-offs expected, but the cracks in Morris' ownership were really starting to show by this point. The loss of another vital player for the way we want to play (Martin, who chose to leave... rug pull 4) isn't covered by an incoming striker despite promises from above (although we did sign Jozwiak as Mad Mel's final flourish, without an adequate striker to play off it was a pointless signing). We start the season with all of our senior attacking options out injured (rug 5) and by the time they returned (and by the time CKR was up to speed) it had all become a bit of a nightmare.

Eventually yes, Cocu has to go. there's no other option. However ZERO f**** are given by about any of the above by those who now bleat on about the difficulties Warne faces.

Rooney - Season 1, takes over a team in terrible form, expectations have dropped to hopefully finishing lower to mid table. Benefits from CKR gaining fitness and an incredible run of form from Bielik before his last big injury, pretty much kept up by that in all honesty. Season 2 he knows from the start that we have boardroom difficulties, are under investigation with the potential for points penalties etc, there's not even an expectation that we stay up so he has carte blanche to manage almost without judgement.

He still has a number rugs pulled out from under him and he deals with it (with the assistance of Rosenior) admirably, but it was a It's a no-lose situation for him in all honesty. Disproportionately praised for his efforts (lets build him a statue!) with Rosenior's role overlooked when it comes to talking about the positives.

Rosenior - Starts almost from scratch. Given a rebuilding job, gets 9 league games. Builds a good team very quickly and does well enough managing it for the brief spell he was allowed to but ultimately gets replaced.  Eternally slagged off for his play style and his positive results dismissed because we sometimes won without playing all that well. Negative results picked apart and blamed on his football rather than the situation he's working in, for which very few f**** are given by certain posters. Negative results from his time working with Rooney attached solely to him, ignoring the positives.

Warne - takes over a squad expected to be top six in League One  (the lowest quality of opposition we've played across a season in 35+ years) and has the resources to finish there but there's not any real pressure to do so because fans remember where we were over the summer. He doesn't have any major injuries to deal with, no off-field controversies - he can just get on with the job he's been brought in to do. Negative results excused because it's not his squad, nothing he could do differently etc, and the unbeaten run (which wasn't actually all-that impressive points wise) being pointed to as some sort of miraculous achievement that proves him beyond question, anybody doubting him is anti-warne and should be called out for it.

Edited May 8, 2023 by Kokosnuss

[Caerphilly Ram]

44 minutes ago, Kokosnuss said:

Depends on the expectations of the fans, owner, and what the manager believes he's walking into vs the reality.

The end-days of Rowett - told that he'd need to focus on the youth team, budgets would be cut... jumps ship. Most people don't remember him fondly at all.

Lampard - a 180 by Morris and he's given whatever he wanted. carried through the season by the class of Tomori, Mount & Wilson. Some awful management at times, but mostly forgotten because of Leeds away in the playoffs. Expectations of promotion not quite met, especially in hindsight.

Cocu - Season 1 - Expectations are top 6 again, pick up from where Lampard left off. However he doesn't get a proper pre-season with the squad due to Lampard pissing about. he takes over a squad with the 3 best players removed and the demands from above are to integrate as many academy players into the first team as possible. He is backed in the transfer market, with the fee for Bielik being particularly egregious but our record signing goes on to get injured for a long spell (rug pull 1). He then has to deal with Joiners Gate (rug pull 2) and the loss of the club captain and defensive staple (one we'd built a lot of our play around the passing abilities of). Further to that there's a global pandemic (rug pull 3) which removes fans from the stadium. A good run in the second half of the season sees us potentially pushing for a play-off spot but we fall away. He's bedded in the youngsters well, with some of their performances being better during that spell than anything they've produced since. 

Of course this isn't good enough for certain people, who've been criticising him from the moment he walked through the door because they don't like his style of play. Every single opportunity 'certain posters' got to say that they weren't a fan was taken. His interviews are mocked by people because of his manner of speaking. He's just too Dutch.

Season 2 - Same again, play-offs expected, but the cracks in Morris' ownership were really starting to show by this point. The loss of another vital player for the way we want to play (Martin, who chose to leave... rug pull 4) isn't covered by an incoming striker despite promises from above (although we did sign Jozwiak as Mad Mel's final flourish, without an adequate striker to play off it was a pointless signing). We start the season with all of our senior attacking options out injured (rug 5) and by the time they returned (and by the time CKR was up to speed) it had all become a bit of a nightmare.

Eventually yes, Cocu has to go. there's no other option. However ZERO f**** are given by about any of the above by those who now bleat on about the difficulties Warne faces.

Rooney - Season 1, takes over a team in terrible form, expectations have dropped to hopefully finishing lower to mid table. Benefits from CKR gaining fitness and an incredible run of form from Bielik before his last big injury, pretty much kept up by that in all honesty. Season 2 he knows from the start that we have boardroom difficulties, are under investigation with the potential for points penalties etc, there's not even an expectation that we stay up so he has carte blanche to manage almost without judgement.

He still has a number rugs pulled out from under him and he deals with it (with the assistance of Rosenior) admirably, but it was a It's a no-lose situation for him in all honesty. Disproportionately praised for his efforts (lets build him a statue!) with Rosenior's role overlooked when it comes to talking about the positives.

Rosenior - Starts almost from scratch. Given a rebuilding job, gets 9 league games. Builds a good team very quickly and does well enough managing it for the brief spell he was allowed to but ultimately gets replaced.  Eternally slagged off for his play style and his positive results dismissed because we sometimes won without playing all that well. Negative results picked apart and blamed on his football rather than the situation he's working in, for which very few f**** are given by certain posters. Negative results from his time working with Rooney attached solely to him, ignoring the positives.

Warne - takes over a squad expected to be top six in League One  (the lowest quality of opposition we've played across a season in 35+ years) and has the resources to finish there but there's not any real pressure to do so because fans remember where we were over the summer. He doesn't have any major injuries to deal with, no off-field controversies - he can just get on with the job he's been brought in to do. Negative results excused because it's not his squad, nothing he could do differently etc, and the unbeaten run (which wasn't actually all-that impressive points wise) being pointed to as some sort of miraculous achievement that proves him beyond question, anybody doubting him is anti-warne and should be called out for it.

Isn’t the tone in this post a mirror image of some of what you’re calling out?
I agree with your points about the varying rubbish situations each manager has faced, but the generalisations aimed at all posters as strictly in one camp or another seem misplaced. There are posters extremely polarised on their views but there are also people somewhere between the two. There doesn’t need to be such strong division within the fan base over opposing views.
I backed Cocu and was gutted it didn’t work out. Rooney showed admirable leadership in the face of huge adversity and almost pulled off the impossible. I wanted Rosenior to do well. I want Warne to do well and whilst I have engaged some of the more extreme posters who do seem to fit an anti-Warne stance in a failed attempt to promote more balance and understand their perspective, I don’t believe he’s immune to criticism. He hasn’t got it right tactically at times, he hasn’t managed games well in terms of substitution choices and timings, he took too long to adapt the tactics towards the end of the season. But he has also done well at times, he has got a tune out of certain players in the squad, he has shown some tactical flexibility throughout the season, he has improved the fitness in the side etc.

Both Rosenior and Warne have contributed to where we finished the season, with their good and bad traits/tactics/results. I would have been preaching the same things if Rosenior had been given the whole season and we’d fallen short. The club was in a mess, the squad isn’t quite right in terms of its depth and balance in certain positions, and whilst disappointing not to make the play offs for all the varying reasons we can debate, the fact remains that we finished 7th so now the focus within the club has to be on what happens next to make sure there is the best chance promotion does happen next season. 
 

EDIT - re-read it and realised you said “certain posters” not all posters as my tired eyes/brain had earlier processed. My overall sentiment is still the same but hands up to that misread.

Edited May 8, 2023 by Caerphilly Ram
Misinterpreted part of original post

[May Contain Nuts]

20 minutes ago, Caerphilly Ram said:

Isn’t the tone in this post a mirror image of some of what you’re calling out?
I agree with your points about the varying rubbish situations each manager has faced, but the generalisations aimed at all posters as strictly in one camp or another seem misplaced. There are posters extremely polarised on their views but there are also people somewhere between the two. There doesn’t need to be such strong division within the fan base over opposing views.

Possibly  re the tone but sometimes it's a case of what's good for the goose is good for the gander. 

I'm not saying there isn't a middle ground and that balanced posters don't exist though? And I wouldn't say I was posting generalisations about groups, it's just that I can't really be arsed to pick individual fights and get into an entire back and forth .

I'm also not the one creating division by making out there's some mass collective of anti-Warners.

Whilst there are some balanced opinions out there there are very clearly some posters dealing in some rather obvious double standards when it comes to which managers they give their backing to and are willing to make excuses for.

Edited May 8, 2023 by Kokosnuss

[Caerphilly Ram]

4 minutes ago, Kokosnuss said:

Possibly  re the tone but sometimes it's a case of what's good for the goose is good for the gander. 

I'm not saying there isn't a middle ground and that balanced posters don't exist though? And I wouldn't say I was posting generalisations about groups, it's just that I can't really be arsed to pick individual fights and get into an entire back and forth .

I'm also not the one creating division by making out there's some mass collective of anti-Warners.

Whilst there are some balanced opinions out there there are very clearly some posters dealing in some rather obvious double standards when it comes to which managers they give their backing to and are willing to make excuses for.

I know, added an edit to my post, I’d misinterpreted part of your original post, sorry about that.

I appreciate your posts as having a level of rationale and balance more often than not. Just feel it’s a shame that there is a bit of division growing between fans in general at the moment, I guess it’s cause everyone cares and has their own perspectives on that. 

 

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

To be honest I'm a bit tired of going to matches and seeing these antics.  Will take me nephews to a couple to keep them entertained but every other game, and probably the last 5 games I've been too have been ruined by awful officiating and constant head clutching, leg clutching and  diving for penalties.  Aware you get it in doses but it's an epidemic.  When it gets to the point your anticipating something will happen too piss you off every time, it's time for a breather.   I knew what would transpire today before it started.  

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

6 hours ago, walkleyowl said:

You were f****** w***

 

[Matchday Fred]

2 hours ago, caymanram said:

Fact is what we got want we deserved. This side should be more than good enough to get out of League 1. Right up until last week we had the chance to secure top 6.

Can’t agree more. In our hands, one point from the last 2 games. The players didn’t want it enough. Move on.

[sunnyhill60]

1 hour ago, Kokosnuss said:

 

Rosenior - Starts almost from scratch. Given a rebuilding job, gets 9 league games. Builds a good team very quickly and does well enough managing it for the brief spell he was allowed to but ultimately gets replaced.  Eternally slagged off for his play style and his positive results dismissed because we sometimes won without playing all that well. Negative results picked apart and blamed on his football rather than the situation he's working in, for which very few f**** are given by certain posters. Negative results from his time working with Rooney attached solely to him, ignoring the positives.

Warne - takes over a squad expected to be top six in League One  (the lowest quality of opposition we've played across a season in 35+ years) and has the resources to finish there but there's not any real pressure to do so because fans remember where we were over the summer. He doesn't have any major injuries to deal with, no off-field controversies - he can just get on with the job he's been brought in to do. Negative results excused because it's not his squad, nothing he could do differently etc, and the unbeaten run (which wasn't actually all-that impressive points wise) being pointed to as some sort of miraculous achievement that proves him beyond question, anybody doubting him is anti-warne and should be called out for it.

The contrast between these last paragraphs demonstrate a selective one-eyed approach - every allowance for Rosenior none for Warne.

There have been unreasonable expectations of both of them but we will never know what outcome we would have seen if the Owner had made a different decision regarding a permanent replacement for Rooney

[On the Ram Page]

Some of the posters on here have a 6/7 month plan for the club - get promoted or sack the manager. Fortunately, we have a new owner/saviour of our precious club who has a stated there is a 5 year plan to re-establish us in the Championship and rebuilt the tattered image we have acquired during the previous regime.

I am prepared to put my faith in our new owner and in the manager he has chosen to go on this journey with him, to rebuild the club the way he thinks is necessary. There will be obstacles along the way! Our finances are still fragile, together with the EFL limitations placed on us. We do not need, nor can afford to keep changing our Management Team at the first disappointment.
 

Some need to have a bit of patience and faith in our new regime. Which of the other major clubs relegated to Div 1 have bounced back immediately? Very, very few and without the trauma we experienced.

I for one am supporting the Clowes/Warne partnership for a good while yet!