Do we really know what restrictions we are under ?

[jono]

Lots of tentative information knocking around and some unanswered questions for me at least. 

As I understand it we are governed by the following ?

1) salary cap - 5k / week for any player and total cap related to turnover (what is the total cap)

2) incoming players - we can buy but only with the proceeds of sales. We can sign frees and loans as long as they are within point 1

3) Contracts to new and existing players - we can offer contracts to all, but at a 2 year maximum length - is that correct ?

4) There is an “agreed business plan” stricture  … what’s in this that isn’t mentioned above ?

5) Are we currently making a trading profit ? 
 

6) Will the club publish some sort of interim report - it would be hugely interesting to me at least ..anyone else feel the same ?

7) DC is allowed to put money in the club but this has to be hard cash/equity rather than loans or nefarious funny money schemes ? 
    Has DC indicated anywhere that he is willing to do this ?

[i-Ram]

39 minutes ago, jono said:

Lots of tentative information knocking around and some unanswered questions for me at least. 
………

Will the club publish some sort of interim report - it would be hugely interesting to me at least ..anyone else feel the same ?

Some interim accounts will be nice. Talking about 352/4312, Warne’s amusing ramblings, McGoldrick’s finesse and Sibley’s hair gel is all well and good, but it is not a touch on amortisation, EBITDA or discounted cash flow analysis is it?

[Leicester Ram]

1 hour ago, i-Ram said:

Some interim accounts will be nice. Talking about 352/4312, Warne’s amusing ramblings, McGoldrick’s finesse and Sibley’s hair gel is all well and good, but it is not a touch on amortisation, EBITDA or discounted cash flow analysis is it?

Haven’t seen anyone send an abusive tweet to Kieran Maguire in months, appalling really

We’ve forgotten what this club is all about 

[Caerphilly Ram]

2 hours ago, jono said:

Lots of tentative information knocking around and some unanswered questions for me at least. 

As I understand it we are governed by the following ?

1) salary cap - 5k / week for any player and total cap related to turnover (what is the total cap)

2) incoming players - we can buy but only with the proceeds of sales. We can sign frees and loans as long as they are within point 1

3) Contracts to new and existing players - we can offer contracts to all, but at a 2 year maximum length - is that correct ?

4) There is an “agreed business plan” stricture  … what’s in this that isn’t mentioned above ?

5) Are we currently making a trading profit ? 
 

6) Will the club publish some sort of interim report - it would be hugely interesting to me at least ..anyone else feel the same ?

7) DC is allowed to put money in the club but this has to be hard cash/equity rather than loans or nefarious funny money schemes ? 
    Has DC indicated anywhere that he is willing to do this ?

The short answer to the question in the thread title is “No”.

On some of the questions you’ve raised my thoughts are as follows;

1) We can offer more than £5k per week as we were able to secure the signings in the summer whilst competing with clubs in higher leagues, just my logic and not based in fact.

2) We cannot pay any fees. This has been reported widely and there are DET articles directly quoting Warne on this. 
3) I think that’s right, we can offer new and extend contracts so long as they fall within whatever the restrictions are. I read somewhere about another post admin club (maybe Wigan?) that they could offer the same terms to existing players so hopefully that’s the same for us.

4) a quick google and reading of various articles speculates the plan is that we can’t pay fees for transfers or agents and that wages are restricted. No full details have ever been revealed but this is the EFL statement released when we exited admin; https://www.efl.com/news/2022/july/efl-statement-derby-county-exit-administration/

A quote in there says “As part of the conditions of continuing membership in the EFL, the Club, whilst remaining under a registration embargo, will be permitted to sign new players in accordance with the terms of a business plan.

The plan, which has been jointly agreed by the new ownership and the EFL, includes restrictions in respect of transfers fees, player wages and agents’ fees. Any application to register players must comply with the terms of those agreed plans.”

5) Only the club knows what the state of the accounts look like, however David Clowes is quoted in minutes following a meeting with the supporters groups as saying this;

“The club is well within the business plan agreed with the EFL, so there is a buffer. They sent the EFL the recruitment strategy, by player and position, and all were signed off, no problem. It is a two-year plan, with a review after 12 months, but we can’t currently spend transfer fees or loan fees.

The plan was done in a worst-case scenario., so season ticket sales coming in over the figure in the business plan really helped.

The club is now debt free.”

So that looks positive, no debt, higher season ticket sales than projected, and attendances in general have been mid to high 20 thousands would all suggest a healthy financial situation at the moment (though I get nothing is that simple).

6&7) Not a clue, a formal communication update from the club would be nice from a fans perspective to help us know what the situation is. However there’s no obligation for them to do so, and I guess it could hinder business if they’re completely transparent. The supporters groups all seem to have gone quiet of late, and that last fans forum was in September following Warne’s announcement so no idea if there’ll be anything more.

In summary the club is in a far better place than it was, I get the impression we’re still over a barrel somewhat but have at least been able to keep the trousers hitched up around the waist. I guess we just have to wait and see what plays out. ?  

[littleover ram]

Only Steve Gibson knows for sure what restrictions we’re under 

[Ghost of Clough]

3 hours ago, jono said:

Lots of tentative information knocking around and some unanswered questions for me at least. 

As I understand it we are governed by the following ?

1) salary cap - 5k / week for any player and total cap related to turnover (what is the total cap)

It's believed to be a cap of £10-12k

3 hours ago, jono said:

2) incoming players - we can buy but only with the proceeds of sales. We can sign frees and loans as long as they are within point 1

Money generated from sales cannot go towards transfer fees. That is unless we renegotiate the terms of the agreed business plan. 

3 hours ago, jono said:

3) Contracts to new and existing players - we can offer contracts to all, but at a 2 year maximum length - is that correct ?

During the duration of the business plan (2 seasons) we can offer a maximum contract length of 2 years. 

3 hours ago, jono said:

4) There is an “agreed business plan” stricture  … what’s in this that isn’t mentioned above ?

Overall wage cap, a limit on agents fees, no compensation fees for players, contracts can be offered to academy players (and pay compensation to other clubs, as long as they don't play for our first team for 12 months), and most importantly... We can offer contracts to protect the compensation rights of all U24 players. 

Budgets will also be revised at the end of the season. 

3 hours ago, jono said:

5) Are we currently making a trading profit ? 

It'll be a 'small' loss this season. Something in the £5-10m region I reckon. 

3 hours ago, jono said:

6) Will the club publish some sort of interim report - it would be hugely interesting to me at least ..anyone else feel the same ?

Not going to happen. 

3 hours ago, jono said:

7) DC is allowed to put money in the club but this has to be hard cash/equity rather than loans or nefarious funny money schemes ? 
Has DC indicated anywhere that he is willing to do this ?

This will have been covered and agreed with the EFL when DC was granted approval to take over. 

[Sparkle]

If it helps Cardiff have just been dumped with a transfer ban for the next 3 transfer windows - basically because they haven’t paid any of the Sala fee yet 

[jono]

24 minutes ago, Caerphilly Ram said:

The short answer to the question in the thread title is “No”.

On some of the questions you’ve raised my thoughts are as follows;

1) We can offer more than £5k per week as we were able to secure the signings in the summer whilst competing with clubs in higher leagues, just my logic and not based in fact.

2) We cannot pay any fees. This has been reported widely and there are DET articles directly quoting Warne on this. 
3) I think that’s right, we can offer new and extend contracts so long as they fall within whatever the restrictions are. I read somewhere about another post admin club (maybe Wigan?) that they could offer the same terms to existing players so hopefully that’s the same for us.

4) a quick google and reading of various articles speculates the plan is that we can’t pay fees for transfers or agents and that wages are restricted. No full details have ever been revealed but this is the EFL statement released when we exited admin; https://www.efl.com/news/2022/july/efl-statement-derby-county-exit-administration/

A quote in there says “As part of the conditions of continuing membership in the EFL, the Club, whilst remaining under a registration embargo, will be permitted to sign new players in accordance with the terms of a business plan.

The plan, which has been jointly agreed by the new ownership and the EFL, includes restrictions in respect of transfers fees, player wages and agents’ fees. Any application to register players must comply with the terms of those agreed plans.”

5) Only the club knows what the state of the accounts look like, however David Clowes is quoted in minutes following a meeting with the supporters groups as saying this;

“The club is well within the business plan agreed with the EFL, so there is a buffer. They sent the EFL the recruitment strategy, by player and position, and all were signed off, no problem. It is a two-year plan, with a review after 12 months, but we can’t currently spend transfer fees or loan fees.

The plan was done in a worst-case scenario., so season ticket sales coming in over the figure in the business plan really helped.

The club is now debt free.”

So that looks positive, no debt, higher season ticket sales than projected, and attendances in general have been mid to high 20 thousands would all suggest a healthy financial situation at the moment (though I get nothing is that simple).

6&7) Not a clue, a formal communication update from the club would be nice from a fans perspective to help us know what the situation is. However there’s no obligation for them to do so, and I guess it could hinder business if they’re completely transparent. The supporters groups all seem to have gone quiet of late, and that last fans forum was in September following Warne’s announcement so no idea if there’ll be anything more.

In summary the club is in a far better place than it was, I get the impression we’re still over a barrel somewhat but have at least been able to keep the trousers hitched up around the waist. I guess we just have to wait and see what plays out. ?  

Many thanks for so much detail. The positives intake from that are 

1) After a 12 month review there will surely be be pressure on the EFL to relax their stance vis a vis buying players if we have the self generated resources .. hey ! I get to say “proof of funds ?” 

2) If we are allowed to offer existing terms to players going out of contract then at least it gives us a chance with Knighty

[CBRammette]

8 hours ago, i-Ram said:

Some interim accounts will be nice. Talking about 352/4312, Warne’s amusing ramblings, McGoldrick’s finesse and Sibley’s hair gel is all well and good, but it is not a touch on amortisation, EBITDA or discounted cash flow analysis is it?

You're forgetting TUPE

[jono]

4 hours ago, Ghost of Clough said:

It's believed to be a cap of £10-12k

Money generated from sales cannot go towards transfer fees. That is unless we renegotiate the terms of the agreed business plan. 

During the duration of the business plan (2 seasons) we can offer a maximum contract length of 2 years. 

Overall wage cap, a limit on agents fees, no compensation fees for players, contracts can be offered to academy players (and pay compensation to other clubs, as long as they don't play for our first team for 12 months), and most importantly... We can offer contracts to protect the compensation rights of all U24 players. 

Budgets will also be revised at the end of the season. 

It'll be a 'small' loss this season. Something in the £5-10m region I reckon. 

Not going to happen. 

This will have been covered and agreed with the EFL when DC was granted approval to take over. 

First of all thanks for the detail and gap filling ?

 

The cap amount at 10/12k seems amazingly large … so are you saying we CAN offer a salary of 10k / week ? That’s 500 grand a year. It’s possible that a champ club could trump that but surely that is sufficient for us to keep any existing players including Knight if they are “with the program” in their guts ? ( and if they aren’t at that price then good riddance, take what fee we can) 

I don’t see 5/10 million as a small loss. If it’s 10 … it’s huge …. and going the wrong way. If we are running to any sort of decent plan we should be breaking even as a minimum - ok if there are some one off costs that dent us in the early stages then fair enough but the underlying facts must be … straight line sustainable operation. 10 million down is bad news unless there is a post admin thing that needs to be accounted for and won’t appear in future years. 
 

As a business we must be looking to break even. Then the next step is, ok DC loves Derby like I love sexy cars and if I had the money I would happily pay “£X” to indulge my pleasure but the foundations need to be solid - that’s what I thought the business plan was supposed to do ? 

 

 

[rammieib]

I heard or seem to remember a total player salary cap of £8 million.

I also remember seeing 8k per week (416k per year plus NI) as the cap of salaries per player.

Both seem to be legit.

My argument would be that additional revenue not allocated in the budget - cup runs at circa 1.5 to 2 million, what happens to this money? We’re basically being told we are not allowed to spend it which doesn’t feel right.

[jono]

47 minutes ago, rammieib said:

I heard or seem to remember a total player salary cap of £8 million.

I also remember seeing 8k per week (416k per year plus NI) as the cap of salaries per player.

Both seem to be legit.

My argument would be that additional revenue not allocated in the budget - cup runs at circa 1.5 to 2 million, what happens to this money? We’re basically being told we are not allowed to spend it which doesn’t feel right.

I think that means you get to strengthen the bank account, paint the stadium, buy the odd academy player, rather than splurge on young men wanting 300 grand a year to play in the 3rd tier of football. It really what is sustainability is about - to me long overdue. 

[sage]

5 minutes ago, jono said:

I think that means you get to strengthen the bank account, paint the stadium, buy the odd academy player, rather than splurge on young men wanting 300 grand a year to play in the 3rd tier of football. It really what is sustainability is about - to me long overdue. 

Out of context filth

[jono]

18 minutes ago, sage said:

Out of context filth

But irony is soooooo very very exciting don’t you think ?

[rammieib]

1 hour ago, jono said:

I think that means you get to strengthen the bank account, paint the stadium, buy the odd academy player, rather than splurge on young men wanting 300 grand a year to play in the 3rd tier of football. It really what is sustainability is about - to me long overdue. 

I slightly disagree on the basis of two things:

1) I don't call it splurging - I call it strengthening the most important facet of the football club - the 1st team. A successful first team makes everything else in the club a lot easier to achieve. It's definitely not called doing a Mel Morris though and its spending within your means. If we have accrued additional income and beyond what is already in the budget and we are operating to the expenditure of the originaly budget, then year, we should be allowed to recruit and pay for that.

2) We already have CAPEX in the budget and Clowes specifically said this is already underway. There was investment going into the stadium (I'm sure it was painted pre-season - correct me if I'm wrong?) and Clowes has specifically said they have a list of CAPEX investments they are undertaking.

[kevinhectoring]

8 hours ago, Ghost of Clough said:

It'll be a 'small' loss this season. Something in the £5-10m region I reckon. 

I was surprised by this. I would have thought the EFl restrictions would pretty much ensure we are in the black. Isn’t that the point of them. And given the gates we have had ... 

Is this because of ‘exceptional’ items (eg Bielik) ? Lack  of sponsors ? 

[jono]

5 minutes ago, rammieib said:

I slightly disagree on the basis of two things:

1) I don't call it splurging - I call it strengthening the most important facet of the football club - the 1st team. A successful first team makes everything else in the club a lot easier to achieve. It's definitely not called doing a Mel Morris though and its spending within your means. If we have accrued additional income and beyond what is already in the budget and we are operating to the expenditure of the originaly budget, then year, we should be allowed to recruit and pay for that.

2) We already have CAPEX in the budget and Clowes specifically said this is already underway. There was investment going into the stadium (I'm sure it was painted pre-season - correct me if I'm wrong?) and Clowes has specifically said they have a list of CAPEX investments they are undertaking.

Absolutely. Can’t disagree. I think I was being a bit touchy given where we have been; along with a dose of my own natural caution blended with the idiotic financial structure of our wonderful game which is or has been due a re set for a long time.

Something is fundamentally wrong when a skilled man might earn £ 1,200,000 in a 40 year lifetimes work, but a 3rd tier footballer can earn that in 3 years. … I am not discussing entrepreneurs in business or premier league super stars (that’s a huge can of worms ) .. Just the ordinary, competent, hard working individuals that populate the lower leagues. Deserving of a good pay cheque for sure, but … £ 500,000 per year from businesses that make huge losses on a regular basis ? 

[Ghost of Clough]

28 minutes ago, kevinhectoring said:

I was surprised by this. I would have thought the EFl restrictions would pretty much ensure we are in the black. Isn’t that the point of them. And given the gates we have had ... 

Is this because of ‘exceptional’ items (eg Bielik) ? Lack  of sponsors ? 

Revenue for the season won't be too far off £20m.

Operating costs will be at least £15m (peaked at over £40m in 17/18) and wages wony be too far off £10m. We're already at a £5m loss. 

Then there are transfer payments (£2.5m for Jozwiak, and about £2m for Bielik this season). Now up to £9.5m.

[i-Ram]

1 hour ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Revenue for the season won't be too far off £20m.

Operating costs will be at least £15m (peaked at over £40m in 17/18) and wages wony be too far off £10m. We're already at a £5m loss. Then there are transfer payments (£2.5m for Jozwiak, and about £2m for Bielik this season). Now up to £9.5m.

I would be a little surprised if after the Administration restructure if the Club were to be losing between £5-10m p.a. I am not doubting your figures, you seem to be on the ball, but nonetheless I would be surprised. Transfer payments for Jozwiak and Bielik are cash transactions, and have no impact on profits if their book value was reduced/amortised in the restructure to reflect their realistic value back in the summer.

A wider concern ought to be Clowes Developments. Going to be a tough year or two for building contractors, especially those in the new build residential market. They seem a well managed, and well capitalised, operation but notwithstanding much management focus will need to be applied to keep them profitable whilst the FTB sector take a rain check. 

[YouRams]

How does the 2 year contracts work, they have to run down the 2 years or can we add another year on once they get to 1 but no one contracted past 2 years?