Do we really know what restrictions we are under ?

[Woodley Ram]

On 18/12/2022 at 20:59, rammieib said:

I slightly disagree on the basis of two things:

1) I don't call it splurging - I call it strengthening the most important facet of the football club - the 1st team. A successful first team makes everything else in the club a lot easier to achieve. It's definitely not called doing a Mel Morris though and its spending within your means. If we have accrued additional income and beyond what is already in the budget and we are operating to the expenditure of the originaly budget, then year, we should be allowed to recruit and pay for that.

2) We already have CAPEX in the budget and Clowes specifically said this is already underway. There was investment going into the stadium (I'm sure it was painted pre-season - correct me if I'm wrong?) and Clowes has specifically said they have a list of CAPEX investments they are undertaking.

I understand what CAPEX and OPEX are but many would not, I even know what double entry booking keeping is...but can we please not go into legal or accounting jargon 

[Tamworthram]

2 hours ago, kevinhectoring said:

Do we know any instances of MSD suffering write offs on any of these loans ? If not they’re coining it in. Hate to think what the interest rates are now, after Liz Truss’ cameo 

To be fair, that’s what all such loan companies do. Lend money and charge an interest rate they feel they can get away with (depending on how close they are to being the lender of last resort), how high the risk is and what, if any level of security is put forward. 

[Gerry Daly]

2 hours ago, kevinhectoring said:

Some find it hard to believe that EFL’s restrictions would permit us to be loss making. But thinking about it, after the Kirch fell off his perch we were looking down a barrel - so perhaps the EFl agreed a favourable deal out of fear of being blamed for our demise. DC would have had a pretty strong hand in that negotiation 

If we are loss making then so is every other club in this division and most of them to a much greater degree 

[Oldben]

We are a loss making club until we are at least in the Championship, even then the real money is either in the premiership or in the parachute payments which give an unfair advantage for returning to the premiership.

League one is chunk change when you've spent 50 million bailing out the club.

We are not favourites for promotion this season, that surely rests with plymouth, ipswich and Sheffield Wednesday.

Pw probably has a 3 year plan to return the club to some kind of decent position.

Based on our performance against Bolton, I'd say we have a challenge ahead to see our club do well next season as players signed will be free agents or loans.

Pw has said he's not seeking new loans as he wants to keep the loans he has.

Next season the club will still have transfer restrictions, so more free agents who are generally older players that are no longer wanted by their clubs.

Free agents generally have little resale value.

On a positive note, we still have a club and we are not bottom of league one.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ghost of Clough]

34 minutes ago, Gerry Daly said:

If we are loss making then so is every other club in this division and most of them to a much greater degree 

Pretty much. This is from a few seasons back

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

1 hour ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Pretty much. This is from a few seasons back

Wycombe in profit hey.

[Ghost of Clough]

19 minutes ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

Wycombe in profit hey.

The graph shows they last £900k in 18/19

[plymouthram]

2 hours ago, Gerry Daly said:

If we are loss making then so is every other club in this division and most of them to a much greater degree 

Plymouth Argyle on average of just over 13,000 home gates last season made a profit and have £6.8m cash in bank according to their financial report that was released in September 2022. But their players wage bill is very low compared with other clubs in League one.

[LeedsCityRam]

7 minutes ago, plymouthram said:

Plymouth Argyle on average of just over 13,000 home gates last season made a profit and have £6.8m cash in bank according to their financial report that was released in September 2022. But their players wage bill is very low compared with other clubs in League one.

Just read that, it was an EBITDA profit (i.e. before depreciation/amortisation) but still very impressive considering they finished with 80 points last season & look to be in the mix for auto promotion this season. Just goes to show money is not the dominant factor for success, its a long term plan. Given we average more than 10k than them, no reason why we can't be sustainable at this level.

Really like the transparency of the financial reporting too - given their progressive outlook, I suspect they're going to be bothering Championship top 6 spots in next 2/3 years;

https://www.pafc.co.uk/news/2122-financial-statements-submitted

 

[ram59]

7 hours ago, Oldben said:

We are a loss making club until we are at least in the Championship, even then the real money is either in the premiership or in the parachute payments which give an unfair advantage for returning to the premiership.

League one is chunk change when you've spent 50 million bailing out the club.

We are not favourites for promotion this season, that surely rests with plymouth, ipswich and Sheffield Wednesday.

Pw probably has a 3 year plan to return the club to some kind of decent position.

Based on our performance against Bolton, I'd say we have a challenge ahead to see our club do well next season as players signed will be free agents or loans.

Pw has said he's not seeking new loans as he wants to keep the loans he has.

Next season the club will still have transfer restrictions, so more free agents who are generally older players that are no longer wanted by their clubs.

Free agents generally have little resale value.

On a positive note, we still have a club and we are not bottom of league one.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

A few points, you don't know that we're a loss making club currently. We have the highest income in the division and thanks to the business plan, I would think that we don't have the highest costs. As shown above not every club makes a loss every year at this level, in fact Walsall, who have yoyoed between Lg1 and Lg2, haven't posted a loss for the last 9 years, according to a local report that I have read.

I agree that it is very unlikely that we will finish in the top 2 this season, but I would expect that we're amongst the favourites to reach the playoffs and if we do so, we would have as good as chance of any of the other play off teams.

Regarding the free agents, the situation will be totally different to last season's and January's transfer windows. Last season we came to the party late and in January most free agents will not be wanted by their current club. However, there will be key players for lower league teams who will not be renewing contracts at the end of this season.  I would think that some of these players would jump at the chance to join Derby and these players will have value. Wildsmith is a perfect example, although he wasn't a key player for Wednesday.

Hopefully, the club will be able to present some early figures to the EFL and will be able to relax our restrictions somewhat.

[kevinhectoring]

6 hours ago, plymouthram said:

Plymouth Argyle on average of just over 13,000 home gates last season made a profit and have £6.8m cash in bank according to their financial report that was released in September 2022. But their players wage bill is very low compared with other clubs in League one.

The current owner bought his first 30% on a valuation of around 1.5m for the entire club (he paid 500k). The Us investors who came in recently bought 20% for 4m - valuing the club at 20m. They’re doing well. But I think Portsmouth will do better in the long run 

[Tamworthram]

16 hours ago, plymouthram said:

Plymouth Argyle on average of just over 13,000 home gates last season made a profit and have £6.8m cash in bank according to their financial report that was released in September 2022. But their players wage bill is very low compared with other clubs in League one.

Slightly misleading but, nonetheless, an enviable and impressive achievement.

The report you are referring to talks about a profit of £376k. However, this was for year ending June 2021. For year ending June 2022 they appear to have made a loss of £240k. Also, the profit for 2021 is aided by a massive increase in “other operating income” (£4m compared with £1.6m the year before) which seems to be down to insurance claims of £2.5m and a Premier League grant of £1.2m. The insurance claim looks like a business interruption payment due to Covid.

Having said all of that, they still look like a very well run club.

[jimtastic56]

22 hours ago, Chellaston Ram said:

We must be one of the most profitable clubs in the country at the moment 

There is no way we could compete with teams getting £30-£40 mill per season parachute payments. But it would help if we could halt the flow of players running their contracts down. Knight this season and Beilik next.

[plymouthram]

Question, I know we are under a 2 year business plan set by EFL and agreed by the new owner and directors of the club. I read somewhere that the plan was working under the assumption of the club averaging around 17,000 home gate crowds. If this is correct, then me must be doing better financially than the drawn up busness plan. Can the club go back to the EFL at any stage and negotiate a fresh business plan, like being able to spend in a future transfer window etc.

[Ghost of Clough]

23 minutes ago, plymouthram said:

Question, I know we are under a 2 year business plan set by EFL and agreed by the new owner and directors of the club. I read somewhere that the plan was working under the assumption of the club averaging around 17,000 home gate crowds. If this is correct, then me must be doing better financially than the drawn up busness plan. Can the club go back to the EFL at any stage and negotiate a fresh business plan, like being able to spend in a future transfer window etc.

Yes, we will be better financially than what was budgeted for when agreeing the business plan. There were suggestions a month or so ago that the club had contacted the EFL to discuss renegotiating the terms based on revised figures. However, this doesn't seem to have developed into anything.

There is a scheduled end of season discussion to adjust restrictions.

[angieram]

2 hours ago, plymouthram said:

Question, I know we are under a 2 year business plan set by EFL and agreed by the new owner and directors of the club. I read somewhere that the plan was working under the assumption of the club averaging around 17,000 home gate crowds. If this is correct, then me must be doing better financially than the drawn up busness plan. Can the club go back to the EFL at any stage and negotiate a fresh business plan, like being able to spend in a future transfer window etc.

I think the 17,000 was anticipated season ticket sales, which we exceeded by 2,500?