Do we really know what restrictions we are under ?

[Tamworthram]

54 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

Of course.

As it happens, whilst there will be some winners (for example FGR who made up less than 5% of the total attendance) and some losers (like Sheffield Wednesday), on average it probably works out about right for our home games. If our average attendance is say 26,000, the visiting teams only need to bring c1,300 to “earn” their 5% commission.

Looks like I got this wrong @Poynton ram

[Tamworthram]

18 minutes ago, richinspain said:

That's what I assumed too. So 23 away games, at an average of 3000 travelling supporters, at an average of £20, that's £69000 at 5%. It's not going to buy us many players, is it? And my guesstimates are probably way too high as well.

On the upside though, it means we don’t have to give away as much of our home game ticket sales as I incorrectly stated earlier. This benefit is probably worth more especially with Pride Park being many fans “big day out”.

[ram59]

I would imagine that the 5% just about covers the costs of the staff needed to handle the selling of the tickets. 

[Ghost of Clough]

25 minutes ago, cool_as_custard said:

Not the way I read that extract from EFL rules. They get a 5% fee for the admin involved in selling their tickets only. So Wednesday sold about 3k at £20 (very rough) = £60k @ 5% = £3,000 admin fee.

FGR get the square root of very little

How does that tie in with this figure:

That period excludes:
     - the first 4 home games in the league last season - Huddersfield, Boro, Forest, Stoke (76k total attendees)
And includes:
     - the first 5 home games this season - Oxford, Barnsley, Peterborough, Plymouth, Wycombe (135k total attendees)
     - the League Cup game vs Salford from last season (5k attendance)
     - the League Cup game vs West Brom this season (10k attendance)
     - the EFL Trophy game vs Grimsby (5k attendance)

[ram59]

4 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

How does that tie in with this figure:

That period excludes:
     - the first 4 home games in the league last season - Huddersfield, Boro, Forest, Stoke (76k total attendees)
And includes:
     - the first 5 home games this season - Oxford, Barnsley, Peterborough, Plymouth, Wycombe (135k total attendees)
     - the League Cup game vs Salford from last season (5k attendance)
     - the League Cup game vs West Brom this season (10k attendance)
     - the EFL Trophy game vs Grimsby (5k attendance)

Where do these figures come from?

[Crewton]

1 hour ago, Ghost of Clough said:

How does that tie in with this figure:

That period excludes:
     - the first 4 home games in the league last season - Huddersfield, Boro, Forest, Stoke (76k total attendees)
And includes:
     - the first 5 home games this season - Oxford, Barnsley, Peterborough, Plymouth, Wycombe (135k total attendees)
     - the League Cup game vs Salford from last season (5k attendance)
     - the League Cup game vs West Brom this season (10k attendance)
     - the EFL Trophy game vs Grimsby (5k attendance)

Odd wording. The only way of getting to a figure like that is if what it really represents is the total value of tickets sold by DCFC to our own fans for OUR away games, surely?

[ram59]

Because of the method in selling away tickets is done, I've assumed that the away club has to commit to a number of tickets and makes a profit on those sales, providing a certain percentage are sold. My reasoning is that on many occasions where we can get a large allocation of tickets, the club only commits to a small allocation to start with, before asking for further allocations after selling the initial allocation. If we did just get a 5% commission on actual sales, surely the club would ask for the maximum allocation straight away and open up blocks as and when?

This would explain why at some grounds, the early ticket sales are in the areas with the poorest location, controlled by the home club.

[RAM1966]

8 hours ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Go on then. Since our business plan estimate would have been based on a revenue of £17m, how much do you think we're actually spending?

The very minimum to run a club of our size is £6m. It was actually about £9m in the 12 months following us entering administration. 
Then there's the transfer/compensation payments, which will be approaching £5m.
You seriously think the total club wage bill is only going to be £3m (or less)? That's not just wages, but tax, NI and pensions too.
During administration, there were severe cuts to the academy, first team staff, and backroom staff. We've already started filling those gaps...

You're estimating/guessing the figures, with nothing substantial to back it up with, it's our 1st season in Lg1 and I don't think you can compare us with what other clubs actual running costs are.  You're estimating/guessing salaries, did you not also mention bonus payments if we go up?  I doubt the EFL will allow these payments, don't forget they will want us to suffer at least 2 seasons in the 3rd tier to show it doesn't pay to go into Admin.  If we do miraculously get promoted others who've run up huge debts could see it as a business model.....

Once again the BP will not allow for huge compensation payments with Rotherham, I think you will find that those payments are much less. 

Some of your figures must be wrong, your figure of £7M loss would not be accepted in a BP by the EFL, I'm sure DC will being a non-visible Chairman, I'm also sure he will be keen to settle the fans worries and show the book quicker than the Charleton...     

[angieram]

9 hours ago, Boycie said:

Supporters charter group meetings are where these questions can be asked.

Is there one planned? @angieram

I don't know when the next one is. I'll ask.

[S6 boy]

5 hours ago, Tamworthram said:

Just checked the EFL and you are correct:

35.3.3  For League Matches only, the Away Club shall be entitled to a commission representing 5 (five) per cent of the aggregate sales (exclusive of VAT) of tickets sold on behalf of the Home Club, unless otherwise agreed between the Clubs. 
 

A rather more helpful answer that just posting “wrong” ?

Right. ??

[Ram@Lincoln]

Whatever the actual answer is, it definitely isn't the few million that @B4ev6is had dreamt up in his fairytale. As estimated it'll be in the medium five figures. Barely anything in football speak when losing millions is "small" losses. 

[i-Ram]

6 hours ago, Tamworthram said:

Just checked the EFL and you are correct:

35.3.3  For League Matches only, the Away Club shall be entitled to a commission representing 5 (five) per cent of the aggregate sales (exclusive of VAT) of tickets sold on behalf of the Home Club, unless otherwise agreed between the Clubs. 
 

A rather more helpful answer that just posting “wrong” ?

[Sparkle]

4 hours ago, richinspain said:

That's what I assumed too. So 23 away games, at an average of 3000 travelling supporters, at an average of £20, that's £69000 at 5%. It's not going to buy us many players, is it? And my guesstimates are probably way too high as well.

Pays for the bus and driver ?

[richinspain]

6 minutes ago, Sparkle said:

Pays for the bus and driver ?

Don't get me wrong. Every little bit helps. But it certainly won't be the 3-4 million that B4 was hoping for.

[jimtastic56]

20 hours ago, plymouthram said:

Another website called "Salary Sport" gives us different figures and breaks down every players wages including youth team players. They have our total wage bill for the season at £7,863,440 and Conor Hourihane our biggest earner on £12,000 a week. Next highest earner being Jason Knight on £10,000. Lowest earner being 17yr old Riley Molonely on £140 a week.

£600k a year for Hourihane does look a bit steep for a 3rd tier footballer. But the way he looks at it could be that Ronaldo is asking for £1.5 million a week.

[Dean (hick) Saunders]

Would have thought 7k week tops for any players who did not have pre existing contracts in place.

[Ghost of Clough]

15 hours ago, ram59 said:

Where do these figures come from?

The administrators report

13 hours ago, RAM1966 said:

You're estimating/guessing the figures, with nothing substantial to back it up with, it's our 1st season in Lg1 and I don't think you can compare us with what other clubs actual running costs are.  You're estimating/guessing salaries, did you not also mention bonus payments if we go up?  I doubt the EFL will allow these payments, don't forget they will want us to suffer at least 2 seasons in the 3rd tier to show it doesn't pay to go into Admin.  If we do miraculously get promoted others who've run up huge debts could see it as a business model.....

Once again the BP will not allow for huge compensation payments with Rotherham, I think you will find that those payments are much less. 

Some of your figures must be wrong, your figure of £7M loss would not be accepted in a BP by the EFL, I'm sure DC will being a non-visible Chairman, I'm also sure he will be keen to settle the fans worries and show the book quicker than the Charleton...     

Except I'm not blindly guessing. My estimates are based on the concrete figures of our club from the recent 12 month period starting September 2021 through to September 2022.

"Want us to suffer". I thought we were over the conspiracy theories now. It can never be a 'business model', because it means giving the club away to someone else. A squad stripped apart and the highly probably risk of relegation with loss of revenue ensure administration isn't worthwhile. Name a single club who have gone into administration since point deductions were introduced who say "you know what, I'm really glad we went in to administration back in XXXX".

I've never given a figure for Rotherham's compensation. I have given a grouped figure of £5m for that compensation and payments for Jozwiak and Bielik. Each of those will be close to £2.5m

My figures are wrong? I'm sure they are, but my estimates aren't usually too far off, even for other clubs I have zero interest in. How have you come to the conclusion that I'm wrong? Can you show me your calculations, because if I've missed something I'd like to correct my errors
The transfer payments are one off figures and a legacy from the old regime. There is a very strong probability this will have been considered when drafting the business plan. For example, my £7m loss after tax would result in an EBITDA very close to £0.

 

PS. a 50% limit of wages to revenue would still be a stricter requirement than any other L1 club are operating at. The lowest in recent seasons was Forest Green with 57.5%, with Bristol Rovers as high as 155%. Plymouth and Portsmouth are 2nd and 3rd best, hovering in the 60-65% region.

[kevinhectoring]

On 19/12/2022 at 23:26, Ghost of Clough said:

Some of the costs are: utility bills, policing, stewarding, stadium and training ground security, match day paramedics, stadium maintenance and stadium cleaning

This debate puts into context DC’s statement that he bought the club in part to protect the value of the stadium - which he already owned. In the shorter term there was no other business reason to buy it. 
 

would be interested to see details of the management team package. I’d guess quite a hefty step up on promotion? Jam tomorrow for PW ...
 

Sort of assumed the FC liabilities (Bielik and Joz ) might have been settled when we exited admin. Can’t remember if we were told 

Putting aside breezy visits to pretty seaside towns, we have a problem if we stay in div 1  for long - the costs of our academy and other PL/Championship infrastructure (if these numbers are close) make it a nailbiting ride for any owner who is not well on the way to being a billionaire 
 

[ram59]

18 hours ago, Ghost of Clough said:

How does that tie in with this figure:

That period excludes:
     - the first 4 home games in the league last season - Huddersfield, Boro, Forest, Stoke (76k total attendees)
And includes:
     - the first 5 home games this season - Oxford, Barnsley, Peterborough, Plymouth, Wycombe (135k total attendees)
     - the League Cup game vs Salford from last season (5k attendance)
     - the League Cup game vs West Brom this season (10k attendance)
     - the EFL Trophy game vs Grimsby (5k attendance)

Looking at the administrators' report, it seems to suggest that the 5% rule doesn't apply and that the away teams receive quite a significant proportion of the away receipts. This would probably even out in Derby's case this season with our average away attendances being similar to the average visiting supporter numbers, due to being restricted to smaller numbers at a number of grounds.

The reporting period does include the period when the games were played this season, but I doubt that these games' figures actually contributed to these figures, as the club wasn't being run by the administrators at this time. The report was made up on 21/9/22, 1 year after the administrators were appointed, but I wouldn't expect it to include the operational income and costs controlled by DC, after the club had been purchased. I understand that, in fact, a new company has been set up to be Derby County and that is the company that would be dealing with things like handing out monies for away receipts since the start of this season.

[Tamworthram]

27 minutes ago, ram59 said:

Looking at the administrators' report, it seems to suggest that the 5% rule doesn't apply and that the away teams receive quite a significant proportion of the away receipts. This would probably even out in Derby's case this season with our average away attendances being similar to the average visiting supporter numbers, due to being restricted to smaller numbers at a number of grounds.

The reporting period does include the period when the games were played this season, but I doubt that these games' figures actually contributed to these figures, as the club wasn't being run by the administrators at this time. The report was made up on 21/9/22, 1 year after the administrators were appointed, but I wouldn't expect it to include the operational income and costs controlled by DC, after the club had been purchased. I understand that, in fact, a new company has been set up to be Derby County and that is the company that would be dealing with things like handing out monies for away receipts since the start of this season.

I can only assume one of the following. I’m not sure any of them seem very likely to me so, heaven alone knows what the split is this season:

1) The rules in 2021/22 were different

2) The rules were different in the Championship

3) Derby and the other clubs agreed a different arrangement

4) When they say “5% aggregate sales of tickets sold on behalf of the home club” they mean tickets sold by both the home and away team on behalf of the home club.

I can’t imagine why a rule in their own handbook wouldn’t apply. Maybe the all knowing @i-Ram can enlighten us with an amusing little GIF (or whatever they are called) ?