Mel Morris fan club

[PistoldPete]

2 hours ago, The Key Club King said:

Though I hope that our legal case will be successful in our claim that Covid has driven us toward administration, the losses through Covid are smaller than the reduction in the wage bill during the same period. We could claim we were going to reduce the wage bill anyway but I would guess that we have probably lost less money in the past 18 months than we did in the previous 18 months to that. 

I would also point out that I had absolutely no problem with the overspending by Mel (however wasteful) when I'd assumed that he was personally paying for it. Putting in on the clubs tab was never mentioned.

It is probably true we made smaller  loss in the last 18 months than in the previous 18 months. I suspect Lampard’s season was the last roll of the dice. Even that year we shaved about £4million off the Wage bill and made a transfer profit. 
 

but it’s the trend that matters . We shaved a lot more off (non sponsored) wage bill in summer 2019. No mount Wilson or tomori.

No nugent Johnson or butterfield either. Still anya and co to get rid of but we were moving in the right direction.

[oldtimeram]

4 hours ago, Pearl Ram said:

Neither did I, I thought it was marvellous. But then I also thought he was an astute and responsible businessman and owner who would do nothing to jeopardise the very existence of the club. 

Morris really did hoodwink me, I never liked Rush, or Rowett, come to that, and posted to that effect from very early in their tenures with us so, there I was, congratulating myself on being able to spot a wrong ‘un a mile off and Morris actually reminds me, in fact, I’m not all that after all.

I spotted it early in his tenure, but I used to get shot down in flames most of the time for being critical of Morris back then.  Most saw him as some sort of Messiah.

[Pearl Ram]

4 minutes ago, oldtimeram said:

I spotted it early in his tenure, but I used to get shot down in flames most of the time for being critical of Morris back then.  Most saw him as some sort of Messiah.

I did. Fell hook, line and sinker as well. Fair play to you for calling it. Turns out he wasn’t the Messiah he was just..well, full of it basically.

[Yani P]

you missed out the sh

[RAM1966]

13 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

Sorry, what?!?!?

Its simple 'if' the NI contributions are not paid they will not count as stamp paid towards the employees state pensions.  We do not know this for certain, but, what else could he owe HMRC?   There had been no trading profits, I doubt its SDLT from the sale of the ground, I think this has to be paid when a property deal goes through for the registration to complete.  Therefore I can not see how it can be anything else when you rule out any other possibilities (Although I could be wrong).

In most cases and to be fair this will not matter to most, as you need to accrue 35 years of NI contributions to be entitled to a full state pension.  It will not matter to the majority of employee's if a year missing as they should accrue sufficient years.  That said though anyone who has worked outside the country or had longer periods of unemployment when they never signed on may have a shortfall!!!!

More importantly how would you feel to have a man who is reportedly worth £1/2Bn take your Tax and NI contributions out of your wages, to find out he did not pass them on the the inland revenue?  

If you are reading this Mel, come out and set the record straight....  Have you paid the employees Tax & NI contributions or not?

Edited October 23, 2021 by RAM1966

[BondJovi]

11 hours ago, PistoldPete said:

It is probably true we made smaller  loss in the last 18 months than in the previous 18 months. I suspect Lampard’s season was the last roll of the dice. Even that year we shaved about £4million off the Wage bill and made a transfer profit. 
 

but it’s the trend that matters . We shaved a lot more off (non sponsored) wage bill in summer 2019. No mount Wilson or tomori.

No nugent Johnson or butterfield either. Still anya and co to get rid of but we were moving in the right direction.

We were probably in line to do even more cutting had Rowett stayed. Letting Lampard roll the dice again was a gamble too far and just made the next season a more serious cutback.

[kevinhectoring]

14 hours ago, The Key Club King said:

Putting in on the clubs tab was never mentioned.

Didn’t he put £250m into the club ?! 

[G STAR RAM]

3 hours ago, RAM1966 said:

Its simple 'if' the NI contributions are not paid they will not count as stamp paid towards the employees state pensions.  We do not know this for certain, but, what else could he owe HMRC?   There had been no trading profits, I doubt its SDLT from the sale of the ground, I think this has to be paid when a property deal goes through for the registration to complete.  Therefore I can not see how it can be anything else when you rule out any other possibilities (Although I could be wrong).

In most cases and to be fair this will not matter to most, as you need to accrue 35 years of NI contributions to be entitled to a full state pension.  It will not matter to the majority of employee's if a year missing as they should accrue sufficient years.  That said though anyone who has worked outside the country or had longer periods of unemployment when they never signed on may have a shortfall!!!!

More importantly how would you feel to have a man who is reportedly worth £1/2Bn take your Tax and NI contributions out of your wages, to find out he did not pass them on the the inland revenue?  

If you are reading this Mel, come out and set the record straight....  Have you paid the employees Tax & NI contributions or not?

Thanks for the long explanation, I'll try and make my reply a little shorter, with all due respect you're talking rubbish

 

[Ghost of Clough]

On 19/10/2021 at 08:59, Crewton said:

Pretty much what I was going to say. With players signed on 4 year contracts in 2015 & 2016, major contract costs were locked in until 2019 or 2020. Transfer spending was IIRC fairly neutral after the end of 2016/17, but with "star" players at the club on anything between 20 - 40K per week, it would have been hard to attract players by offering them significantly lower wages. Rowett left because he realised that the cost-cutting was going to get even deeper (the other day I came across the notes of a Supporters Group meeting attended by Morris and Rowett from shortly after GR's appointment where MM stated clearly that GR knew he'd have to oversee cost savings), so by the time Rush left, Morris was apparently aware of how reckless the spending had become and had started to try to pull things around, hampered by having expensive players on long contracts who no-one wanted to buy. During 2017/18, it must have been clear there was a looming crisis, hence the decisions to sell the Stadium and change the amortisation method were taken in an attempt to "smooth the curve". Covid completed the perfect storm that was started by reckless spending over 2 seasons and fed by ultimate failure and under-performance on the pitch.

So, if Mel was aware of the scale of future liabilities being racked up between 2015-2017, he has to take 100% responsibility. If he left  Rush, Vickers et al to manage the finances, he was perhaps lax, perhaps naive, but also let down by those he entrusted and they too must share some responsibility. Those players who came, took the money and gave not a FF will have to square that with their own consciences.

Changed in the 15/16 season.

On 20/10/2021 at 11:00, Red Ram said:

 

So let's get this straight. Kieran Maquire, who's job (as shown above) is specifically to analyse football finances, noticed that our amortisation policy was an outlier in comparison with the rest of the league and pointed this out, which makes him partly to blame for Derby's financial crisis. Apparently he should have just kept quiet, not done his job properly and crossed his fingers that no one else noticed? Because his primary concern should obviously have been to try and ensure that Derby got away with it? Not that there was anything wrong with Derby's amortisation policy of course but he shouldn't have mentioned it anyway, just in case the EFL thought there was.

I've listened to all of his (absolutely excellent, by the way) Price of Football podcasts where they've covered Derby. He's not anti Derby or even anti Mel Morris, he simply points out that the underlying cause of Derby's financial crisis is the tripling of the wage bill over a 3 to 4 year period between 2014 and 2018. It's indisputable that that's the case. 

He quite rightly called out Morris's failure to take adequate responsibility for the crisis. So did Wayne Rooney - presumably he's a 'snitch' too??

Sorry but this playground level stuff...

Wage bill (inclusive of pensions and social security) rose from £16m to £40m.

Revenue also increased from £20m to £30m over the same period.

[Carnero]

6 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

Thanks for the long explanation, I'll try and make my reply a little shorter, with all due respect you're talking rubbish

 

Agreed, a lot of words for something he clearly has no clue about! The NI has been paid by the employee as soon as it is deducted and the weekly/monthly RTI submission made to HMRC. Their P60's will prove that.

[PistoldPete]

11 hours ago, RAM1966 said:

Its simple 'if' the NI contributions are not paid they will not count as stamp paid towards the employees state pensions.  We do not know this for certain, but, what else could he owe HMRC?   There had been no trading profits, I doubt its SDLT from the sale of the ground, I think this has to be paid when a property deal goes through for the registration to complete.  Therefore I can not see how it can be anything else when you rule out any other possibilities (Although I could be wrong).

In most cases and to be fair this will not matter to most, as you need to accrue 35 years of NI contributions to be entitled to a full state pension.  It will not matter to the majority of employee's if a year missing as they should accrue sufficient years.  That said though anyone who has worked outside the country or had longer periods of unemployment when they never signed on may have a shortfall!!!!

More importantly how would you feel to have a man who is reportedly worth £1/2Bn take your Tax and NI contributions out of your wages, to find out he did not pass them on the the inland revenue?  

If you are reading this Mel, come out and set the record straight....  Have you paid the employees Tax & NI contributions or not?

To be honest the last of my worries is about whether we paid full NI contributions to make sure Ikechi anya gets a full State pension. Didn't he profit enough at our expense? 

As for tax I think the answer is he hasn't paid the PAYE tax. I would like him to do so. Maybe there's a reason he hasn't? Has he personally got the money to do it? And even if has who has the legal means to force him to?  I think the answer to that is no-one.   

[Tyler Durden]

Can't you make up any missing NI contributions yourself for that particular year so it then counts towards your state pension?

 

[PistoldPete]

4 hours ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Changed in the 15/16 season.

Wage bill (inclusive of pensions and social security) rose from £16m to £40m.

Revenue also increased from £20m to £30m over the same period.

Some people don't like facts they get in the way of their narrative. If players wage bill had stayed at £16 million with no increase since 2014 we would not only have lower revenue but also still be making a big loss when our revenue fell to £10 million due to covid. 

[RAM1966]

9 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

Thanks for the long explanation, I'll try and make my reply a little shorter, with all due respect you're talking rubbish

 

Why is it rubbish please explain? 

Ive known people with gaps in thier NI contibutions that had to be made up by purchsing them, or working longer to achieve 35 years contributions......

Please do explain....

[RAM1966]

3 hours ago, Carnero said:

Agreed, a lot of words for something he clearly has no clue about! The NI has been paid by the employee as soon as it is deducted and the weekly/monthly RTI submission made to HMRC. Their P60's will prove that.

Only if the club have paid the money to the Taxman, which it appears they have not.  Therefore their contribution has not been paid.  This happened to my wife when we were working abroad, she had tax and NI deducted from her payslip.  Yet the government department that employed her failed to make the payment's and as a result she had a gap in her record.

Fortunately she had kept her payslips and after a few months of letters backwards and forwards the contributions were paid, had they not have been she would of been 5 years short of NI contributions.

Im talking with the benefit of experience!!!!

Happy to be challenged further though.... Before you do try reading this https://taxaid.org.uk/guides/information/an-introduction-to-income-tax-national-insurance-and-tax-credits/national-insurance/national-insurance-for-employees-and-employers/about-employers

Edited October 24, 2021 by RAM1966

[RAM1966]

2 hours ago, PistoldPete said:

To be honest the last of my worries is about whether we paid full NI contributions to make sure Ikechi anya gets a full State pension. Didn't he profit enough at our expense? 

As for tax I think the answer is he hasn't paid the PAYE tax. I would like him to do so. Maybe there's a reason he hasn't? Has he personally got the money to do it? And even if has who has the legal means to force him to?  I think the answer to that is no-one.   

Agreed, but, what about the mere mortals that work as marketing, ticket office, cleaners and in the accounts departments that are not on pop star wages?

[G STAR RAM]

32 minutes ago, RAM1966 said:

Why is it rubbish please explain? 

Ive known people with gaps in thier NI contibutions that had to be made up by purchsing them, or working longer to achieve 35 years contributions......

Please do explain....

The employees have had their tax and ni stopped at source by their employer.

The employer failing to pay these deductions across will not affect their record.

[RAM1966]

49 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

The employees have had their tax and ni stopped at source by their employer.

The employer failing to pay these deductions across will not affect their record.

https://taxaid.org.uk/guides/information/an-introduction-to-income-tax-national-insurance-and-tax-credits/national-insurance/national-insurance-for-employees-and-employers/about-employers

[G STAR RAM]

3 minutes ago, RAM1966 said:

https://taxaid.org.uk/guides/information/an-introduction-to-income-tax-national-insurance-and-tax-credits/national-insurance/national-insurance-for-employees-and-employers/about-employers

Yep so as long as an employee can prove that they have had NIC deducted, either via payslips or P60s, their record will not be affected. That is what I said.

You'd assume that with the club having a debt of £26m to HMRC that they have been correctly reporting the deductions.

[PistoldPete]

1 hour ago, RAM1966 said:

Agreed, but, what about the mere mortals that work as marketing, ticket office, cleaners and in the accounts departments that are not on pop star wages?

I think as others have said their State pensions will be oK. though they say you need payslips but you would hope HMRC would know what was deducted now with RTI, even if it hasnt been paid . Not sure to be honest, thanks for flagging this.  Their jobs are at risk of course which is a bigger worry.

Edited October 24, 2021 by PistoldPete