Derby County vs Notts Forest

[angieram]

The alternative though, is taking conventional goalkicks either onto Fozzy's head (and he wasn't winning so many of those yesterday) or over the top for a forward to run onto. We have no-one central who can hold that ball up. Baldock can run in behind but wasn't available. 

To be honest, we haven't had a team suited to a game of hoofball from the keeper for a long time. Ball just keeps coming right back at us when we try it.

[Anag Ram]

3 minutes ago, angieram said:

The alternative though, is taking conventional goalkicks either onto Fozzy's head (and he wasn't winning so many of those yesterday) or over the top for a forward to run onto. We have no-one central who can hold that ball up. Baldock can run in behind but wasn't available. 

To be honest, we haven't had a team suited to a game of hoofball from the keeper for a long time. Ball just keeps coming right back at us when we try it.

We'd be better getting Roos to kick for touch in their half. 

We could then regroup and put pressure on opponents forcing them to give the ball back. Bit like rugby. 

 

[brady1993]

8 minutes ago, Bianoic said:

Fair comments Brady

I think overall my point is that I’m a bit mystified why a lower half team in England’s second tier, with the quality of player we currently have, and ones with a quality that  you would expect to be playing no higher than that level, should adopt some tactics that some of the top teams in the world and certainly the Prem would struggle to be successful with. I just don't think we have the players to do that and its a case of the management to some extent trying to force square pins into round holes

 

2 minutes ago, Ramarena said:

Can anyone point to more than a couple of championship teams that have the players with technical quality in each area to pull off this system?

We really aren't that far away from pulling it off and executing it properly. With each passing game players seem to be getting increasingly comfortable in their roles and know what they should be doing. There are teething pains for sure but that's not unreasonable 5 games into a season with any system. To tell the truth it's not that complicated at least not a player level, most positions have very clearly defined roles of what they should be doing with the only exceptions being for players who can handle it/thrive with a bunch of freedom. There have been more complicated systems pass through this division without issue and I'd say what we are trying to do now is probably no more complicated tactically (maybe even less so) than what Mac had us doing in 13/14 - 14/15.

In terms of personnel we really aren't that far away from executing it more than comfortably. If we'd have got the couple of loans over the line Rooney was after (which I don't think was an unreasonable expectation on his part) then the systematic issues would have completely dissipated. When Bielik gets fit a huge chunk of the issues disappear to and we can likely compensate for just Davies at that point. It's possibly true that the same can be said when Knight is fit. 

[RoyMac5]

 

[Ramarena]

2 minutes ago, brady1993 said:

 

We really aren't that far away from pulling it off and executing it properly. With each passing game players seem to be getting increasingly comfortable in their roles and know what they should be doing. There are teething pains for sure but that's not unreasonable 5 games into a season with any system. To tell the truth it's not that complicated at least not a player level, most positions have very clearly defined roles of what they should be doing with the only exceptions being for players who can handle it/thrive with a bunch of freedom. There have been more complicated systems pass through this division without issue and I'd say what we are trying to do now is probably no more complicated tactically (maybe even less so) than what Mac had us doing in 13/14 - 14/15.

In terms of personnel we really aren't that far away from executing it more than comfortably. If we'd have got the couple of loans over the line Rooney was after (which I don't think was an unreasonable expectation on his part) then the systematic issues would have completely dissipated. When Bielik gets fit a huge chunk of the issues disappear to and we can likely compensate for just Davies at that point. It's possibly true that the same can be said when Knight is fit. 

I’d disagree with this. Sure Beiliks return will help as he’s one of the best players in the division when fully fit, his return would help any system/tactic. 

But after that we need to be more adaptable as we don’t play in a vacuum. Teams in this division will use anything to gain a foothold and stop you playing as we found with Mac 1 who had the players and resources. 

Look at how we started to improve in the latter stages yesterday with a change in formation. That’s how the more successful teams in this division do well constantly evolving per game. They may have a good initial plan, but they are also able to adapt to the circumstances that develop mid game if needed. Hopefully the management team learnt from that and have something in mind going forwards as we are going to need to be more combative at times.

My hope is that we don’t rigidly stick to this way of playing come hell or high water as it’s fairly predictable and easy to counter even with good technical players in every position, which doesn’t often work anyway.

[brady1993]

 

24 minutes ago, Ramarena said:

I’d disagree with this. Sure Beiliks return will help as he’s one of the best players in the division when fully fit, his return would help any system/tactic.

The reason I say Bielik's return will help a tonne is not specifically because of his quality. Right now the most obvious issue with what we are playing is that Shinnie is a square peg in a round hole and his game is not suited to being heavily involved in the build up play like you'd want a player in his position with a team playing out from the back to do. We don't specifically need Bielik but we do need a second technically sound player, who wants the ball whilst being ok defensively and is ideally right footed. Bielik specifically though does add an extra dimension that will make us a lot harder to play against in that he can carry the ball and break the press with dribbling.

29 minutes ago, Ramarena said:

But after that we need to be more adaptable as we don’t play in a vacuum. Teams in this division will use anything to gain a foothold and stop you playing as we found with Mac 1 who had the players and resources. 

I'll come back to the adaptable comment in a second but I just wanted to comment that I think it's worth pointing out the amount of time that we actually got stopped under Mac 1 was few and far between. Some teams managed it but very very few teams in the division were genuinely capable of completely disrupting our play pattern. Whilst you are correct about teams in this division will do what they can to get a foothold against you, usually they need a weak area to do it.

36 minutes ago, Ramarena said:

Look at how we started to improve in the latter stages yesterday with a change in formation. That’s how the more successful teams in this division do well constantly evolving per game. They may have a good initial plan, but they are also able to adapt to the circumstances that develop mid game if needed. Hopefully the management team learnt from that and have something in mind going forwards as we are going to need to be more combative at times

I wouldn't necessarily call that a change in formation yesterday more a tweak in personnel and roles, to be clear with what I'm about to say I'm more than on board with that. I do largely agree that you need to be able to adjust at times and perhaps present something different. But at it's foundation nearly every team at this level that is successful has a strong core identity of how they want to set up and how they go about playing. They may vary from there but it's rarely big swings or adjustments. The primary reason for that is if you want to get the most out of a squad at this level you cannot afford to "adapt" too much because the players you have likely have very clear strengths and very clear weaknesses. You have a primary game plan that you stick to because it balances out what you have available and more importantly by a player knowing there role week in, week out you get more than the sum of your parts out of the team. By adapting too much you risk overcorrecting and suddenly players don't know what they should be doing, are unfamiliar with it or unsuited to it. I mean take a look at last season if you want an example of this, we were constantly adapting and trying to match the opponent and for the most part it completely backfired and we looked dreadful. Personally I think we need to primarily focus on getting "Plan A" right through coaching and personnel changes and then move from there. 

48 minutes ago, Ramarena said:

My hope is that we don’t rigidly stick to this way of playing come hell or high water as it’s fairly predictable and easy to counter even with good technical players in every position, which doesn’t often work anyway.

It's worth noting that despite Forest clicking on tactically to us yesterday in the second half we still created more than enough to bury the game and they created little of note really. The main reason it's not hard to counter and predictable right now is it's very clear who is and who isn't comfortable at having the ball, most of that disappears by a fix in midfield also it's partially alleviated with having Baldock back as an option because we then have an option in behind which stretches the pitch out. You can argue that we shouldn't be sticking with this particular set of tactics with that first 11 and I'd be partially inclined to agree but I don't there is anything inherently flawed with it, we just need to fix that left hand side.

[atherstoneram]

It's all well and good saying when Beilik is back we will be OK,having missed a good part of Two seasons due to injuries he might not be the same player when he comes back,another injury of the same and it might be career ending.

[Ramarena]

43 minutes ago, brady1993 said:

 

The reason I say Bielik's return will help a tonne is not specifically because of his quality. Right now the most obvious issue with what we are playing is that Shinnie is a square peg in a round hole and his game is not suited to being heavily involved in the build up play like you'd want a player in his position with a team playing out from the back to do. We don't specifically need Bielik but we do need a second technically sound player, who wants the ball whilst being ok defensively and is ideally right footed. Bielik specifically though does add an extra dimension that will make us a lot harder to play against in that he can carry the ball and break the press with dribbling.

I'll come back to the adaptable comment in a second but I just wanted to comment that I think it's worth pointing out the amount of time that we actually got stopped under Mac 1 was few and far between. Some teams managed it but very very few teams in the division were genuinely capable of completely disrupting our play pattern. Whilst you are correct about teams in this division will do what they can to get a foothold against you, usually they need a weak area to do it.

I wouldn't necessarily call that a change in formation yesterday more a tweak in personnel and roles, to be clear with what I'm about to say I'm more than on board with that. I do largely agree that you need to be able to adjust at times and perhaps present something different. But at it's foundation nearly every team at this level that is successful has a strong core identity of how they want to set up and how they go about playing. They may vary from there but it's rarely big swings or adjustments. The primary reason for that is if you want to get the most out of a squad at this level you cannot afford to "adapt" too much because the players you have likely have very clear strengths and very clear weaknesses. You have a primary game plan that you stick to because it balances out what you have available and more importantly by a player knowing there role week in, week out you get more than the sum of your parts out of the team. By adapting too much you risk overcorrecting and suddenly players don't know what they should be doing, are unfamiliar with it or unsuited to it. I mean take a look at last season if you want an example of this, we were constantly adapting and trying to match the opponent and for the most part it completely backfired and we looked dreadful. Personally I think we need to primarily focus on getting "Plan A" right through coaching and personnel changes and then move from there. 

It's worth noting that despite Forest clicking on tactically to us yesterday in the second half we still created more than enough to bury the game and they created little of note really. The main reason it's not hard to counter and predictable right now is it's very clear who is and who isn't comfortable at having the ball, most of that disappears by a fix in midfield also it's partially alleviated with having Baldock back as an option because we then have an option in behind which stretches the pitch out. You can argue that we shouldn't be sticking with this particular set of tactics with that first 11 and I'd be partially inclined to agree but I don't there is anything inherently flawed with it, we just need to fix that left hand side.

As I said, you don’t have to change everything continuously. You have to evolve on a per game basis depending upon what you are faced with, sometimes you will not need to change much, sometimes you’ll need to throw the kitchen sink at it and change everything. 

We’ve seemed reluctant to do this so far this season up until late in the second half yesterday. Hopefully that in the managements minds and bodes well for the future. 

Shinnie is the interesting one, yes you can bring in a better passer, but you may well lose out in other areas, personally until Beilik returns and regains form then I think Shinnie offers  the best balance of attributes required despite being a square peg in a round hole. Strangely Rooney seems to be of this view as well…….never thought I’d be in agreement with him ?

Edited August 29, 2021 by Ramarena

[brady1993]

2 hours ago, Ramarena said:

As I said, you don’t have to change everything continuously. You have to evolve on a per game basis depending upon what you are faced with, sometimes you will not need to change much, sometimes you’ll need to throw the kitchen sink at it and change everything. 

We’ve seemed reluctant to do this so far this season up until late in the second half yesterday. Hopefully that in the managements minds and bodes well for the future. 

Shinnie is the interesting one, yes you can bring in a better passer, but you may well lose out in other areas, personally until Beilik returns and regains form then I think Shinnie offers  the best balance of attributes required despite being a square peg in a round hole. Strangely Rooney seems to be of this view as well…….never thought I’d be in agreement with him ?

I think we've been reluctant to do it in part because we are still working to embed a style and it's going to take a little time and some teething pains. And I think we've been progressing for the most part on that front. To be honest I don't entirely get your point about the changes yesterday because they felt like fairly typical changes we've been making.

To be honest for as much as I've made a point about him, Shinnie might be the best option right now because there are large question marks about whether the other options we have available can hack it defensively from the off. I'd be tempted to try it but I get why it hasn't. I do think though we need to be a little more proactive when we are struggling to keep the ball by making a substitution. Yesterday Forest weren't that much of a threat at all through the centre and most of the danger was coming from giving the ball up cheaply, we could have probably been better served by bringing on the likes of Watson.

[Eaststander7]

Looked like something kicked off on the roundabout near the Audi garage yesterday - anyone see anything?? 
 

Also I don’t believe the crowd was 22,900 yesterday….looked more than that to me

[Philmycock]

10 hours ago, BramcoteRam84 said:

Can someone enlighten me on the chant doing the rounds yesterday. Think I picked up Forest are bankers in it but don’t know the rest and it sounded a good chant.

 

Forest get battered everywhere they go. Forest get battered everywhere they gooooooo. Everywhere they go!

[Ramfan1958]

14 minutes ago, Eaststander7 said:

Looked like something kicked off on the roundabout near the Audi garage yesterday - anyone see anything?? 
 

Also I don’t believe the crowd was 22,900 yesterday….looked more than that to me

 

[Ramfan1958]

Derby need a proper no 9 who can hold the ball up yesterday it kept coming back .

Lawrence Baldock etc arenot not no9 .

 

With Kazim we would have buried them yesterday.  

[AndrewsTripNNip]

Hey up all, finally completed my video from my visit to Pride Park yesterday so nice to visit Derby again. After a long spell, despite the match probably not being that vintage it was still a very good atmosphere. Hope Derby can certainly turn there fortunes round and fingers crossed a takeover can happen sooner than later. Also 22,900 nah not convinced with that I think there was more than 25,000 at least. Enjoy the video below, hopefully see you soon at Pride Park or away.

 

[Will Hughes Hair]

21 hours ago, RoyMac5 said:

 

Of course Chris Wilder will take the call. He’s had a horrible 12 months and needs a good laugh.

[Inverurie Ram]

 

[Inverurie Ram]

 

[Premier ram]

Draw a fair result , need that killer instinct, would like to say how well i thought Max Bird played , growing more and more into his role every game , very impressive , Forest will deffo be bottom half , not a good side , what a loathsome creature Worrall is , got away with handball , persistent fouls , gesture to the crowd , cant stand the bloke

[Mr. P]

?

[sage]

On 29/08/2021 at 12:09, Bianoic said:

Fair comments Brady

I think overall my point is that I’m a bit mystified why a lower half team in England’s second tier, with the quality of player we currently have, and ones with a quality that  you would expect to be playing no higher than that level, should adopt some tactics that some of the top teams in the world and certainly the Prem would struggle to be successful with. I just don't think we have the players to do that and its a case of the management to some extent trying to force square pins into round holes

When we stopped playing out from the back v Boro, was when they got back into the game. 

I'm delighted with the style and ambition of play we have shown this season. It won't always work perfectly, but neither will other styles of play. Bielik for Shinnie, will move it on a level, as will Knight coming back to the bench so our subs don't weaken the team.