Warne Out Out

[i-Ram]

6 hours ago, Ram-Alf said:

I never knew what a Tw*t or a 🔔end was even tho I was sitting next to a

Transvestite?

[Turk Thrust]

3 hours ago, Comrade 86 said:

Great face for radio.

And what did happen to his eyebrows 

[RoyMac5]

17 minutes ago, Nuwtfly said:

Yep, I think I've made it pretty clear what I think about the way we play under Warne. Not been impressed by his management of the team all season and I think we're pretty lucky to be so close to the top all things considered.

But he absolutely has earned, through results alone, to have this season to bring us promotion and, hopefully, turn the football around with some new players + some returning from injury. 

Sacking him now is just pressing a pointless self-destruct button. It's a unnecessary gamble.

Let's have another conversation about it as a fan-base in the summer, and depending what division we're in. 

Except we were odds on for Top 6 last season. What happened? This season could be a repeat...

[Jourdan]

@LeedsCityRam 

The quality of football is not high but we are also in League 1 with a squad of League 1 footballers, so quality and consistency are naturally difficult to maintain. If you are realistic about where we are, then perhaps it’s not so disappointing that we struggle in that department.

Some people believe we have the best squad in the league and should be a cert for top two. For me, we are a competitive top six side with an outside chance of top two. That always seemed likely to me as Bolton, Barnsley and Peterborough were better than us last season and have also looked to improve.

I am not really frustrated about people’s gripes over the style of play or generally not fazed by people not appreciating the job Warne is doing. I have too at times commented that it can be frustrating and also at times commented that Warne needs to step things up. 

I was all over the thread on Tuesday saying that it wasn’t good enough v Reading. I was all over the Stevenage thread saying Warne’s position was in trouble. The difference is that it seems that some people don’t seem willing to praise and criticise in equal measure and be balanced in their views. The praise was begrudging even when we won 8 games out of 9 recently. It feels like nothing will ever be enough for some.

In terms of meeting expectation, I would say that Warne is around par. Missing out on the playoffs last season was disappointing and being in the top six now is expected. Some of the opposition teams have good squads and equally good individual talent and experienced managers at this level (see Bolton and Peterborough with Evatt and Ferguson) that are proving just as canny. I don’t see that we can be dismissive of that.

[nottingram]

16 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

@LeedsCityRam 

The quality of football is not high but we are also in League 1 with a squad of League 1 footballers, so quality and consistency are naturally difficult to maintain. If you are realistic about where we are, then perhaps it’s not so disappointing that we struggle in that department.

Some people believe we have the best squad in the league and should be a cert for top two. For me, we are a competitive top six side with an outside chance of top two. That always seemed likely to me as Bolton, Barnsley and Peterborough were better than us last season and have also looked to improve.

I am not really frustrated about people’s gripes over the style of play or generally not fazed by people not appreciating the job Warne is doing. I have too at times commented that it can be frustrating and also at times commented that Warne needs to step things up. 

I was all over the thread on Tuesday saying that it wasn’t good enough v Reading. I was all over the Stevenage thread saying Warne’s position was in trouble. The difference is that it seems that some people don’t seem willing to praise and criticise in equal measure and be balanced in their views. The praise was begrudging even when we won 8 games out of 9 recently. It feels like nothing will ever be enough for some.

In terms of meeting expectation, I would say that Warne is around par. Missing out on the playoffs last season was disappointing and being in the top six now is expected. Some of the opposition teams have good squads and equally good individual talent and experienced managers at this level (see Bolton and Peterborough with Evatt and Ferguson) that are proving just as canny. I don’t see that we can be dismissive of that.

The difficulty is that the wins do not necessarily quell the concerns so any praise is then forced, or would be from me anyway.

I personally have no real concerns Warne will get us out of this league. It really should be this year but if not then there’s a few contracts expiring in the summer and he’ll have some wiggle room (but would absolutely need to be recruit better this summer than last).

Where I do have concerns is how we still look against the better teams in the league. Peterborough looked a level above us at PP, we couldn’t string two passes together v Bolton even at 11 v 11. Did play well v Barnsley however.

So beating up some bad teams at this level doesn’t really move the needle for me. The crux of my issue is he has a 4 year deal and so the expectation must be that he will lead us at some point in the Championship, however hard I try I just cannot imagine that working out and I can’t simply tell myself “well let’s just get promoted first” because I think that’s the wrong way to look at it. 

[Animal is a Ram]

As my dad would say, rest his soul: "You can only beat what's in front of you".

I understand that fans (including myself) want a better standard of football, but it simply isn't going to be that way. Most teams will do everything in their power to drag you down - and the standard of the league without Sunderland/Ipswich/Wednesday in it is lower than it has been in previous years.

I'll take a year of less than inspiring football if it gets us out of L1. 

[Ram-Alf]

13 hours ago, i-Ram said:

Transvestite?

I sat between a Fanny and a Richard 😉, Infront of me were a pair of twins...their surname was Balls, So a Fanny to the left of me, A Dick to the right of me and a pair of Balls in front of me, Tea bagging was a different term in those days 😁 

[May Contain Nuts]

1 hour ago, Jourdan said:

it seems that some people don’t seem willing to praise and criticise in equal measure and be balanced in their views

1 hour ago, Jourdan said:

In terms of meeting expectation, I would say that Warne is around par.

Simpe really. Managers don't tend to get much praise for being 'around par'. Especially when the football they're serving up is regularly so hard to watch.

Praise and criticism in equal measure is a bit of a pipedream and the improper distribution of it is hardly something you're immune from yourself.

The problem isn't that we're not playing scintillating football, it's that on more occasions than a few we've barely even looked like a team at all and that's easily attributable to the way we set up. I'm sure most of Warne's current critics would accept us playing football which is a bit more 'dull', but a lot more organised because they'd at least see how the we take what we're doing forward and build on it to successfully play it at a higher level.

It's why on the other thread you have people rating Cocu above Warne - that certainly can't be because of their respective results on the pitch.

And you can't just write off how disjointed it is because "we are also in League 1 with a squad of League 1 footballers," that's just such a weak get-out, as if it's impossible for a League One club to have a coherent manner of playing. We're not asking for that every single week, but more than once a month would be encouraging!

[May Contain Nuts]

53 minutes ago, Animal is a Ram said:

Most teams will do everything in their power to drag you down

...which is fine, but at times it isn't the opposition dragging us down to their level; it's us lowering ourselves to theirs, often intentionally, that grates.

[duncanjwitham]

2 hours ago, Jourdan said:

The quality of football is not high but we are also in League 1 with a squad of League 1 footballers, so quality and consistency are naturally difficult to maintain. If you are realistic about where we are, then perhaps it’s not so disappointing that we struggle in that department.

Some people believe we have the best squad in the league and should be a cert for top two. For me, we are a competitive top six side with an outside chance of top two. That always seemed likely to me as Bolton, Barnsley and Peterborough were better than us last season and have also looked to improve.

I am not really frustrated about people’s gripes over the style of play or generally not fazed by people not appreciating the job Warne is doing. I have too at times commented that it can be frustrating and also at times commented that Warne needs to step things up. 

I was all over the thread on Tuesday saying that it wasn’t good enough v Reading. I was all over the Stevenage thread saying Warne’s position was in trouble. The difference is that it seems that some people don’t seem willing to praise and criticise in equal measure and be balanced in their views. The praise was begrudging even when we won 8 games out of 9 recently. It feels like nothing will ever be enough for some.

In terms of meeting expectation, I would say that Warne is around par. Missing out on the playoffs last season was disappointing and being in the top six now is expected. Some of the opposition teams have good squads and equally good individual talent and experienced managers at this level (see Bolton and Peterborough with Evatt and Ferguson) that are proving just as canny. I don’t see that we can be dismissive of that.

A few random, semi-related points... 

We're also a playing against League 1 teams, with League 1 defenders etc.  We don't have to play exactly like Barcelona or anything, but we're absolutely capable of a much higher quality that what we're seeing.

Personally, I think we've probably got one of the top 2 squads in the League, and I think we've more than likely got one of the top 2 wage bills in the league.  There's just the overriding feeling that we aren't trying to make the most of what we do have.  For one, if you set your team up in such a way that you need Max Bird and Connor Hourihane to outrun a 3-man midfield to be successful, then you're setting yourself up for failure.  I'm not saying we have a God-given right to win the league or anything, but it almost feels like we're hamstringing ourselves and then when it doesn't work, shrugging our shoulders and carrying on doing it anyway.

There have been so many games we've not played very well at all, but we've got something out of the game because Hourihane has smashed one in out of nowhere (Burton) or NML blows past his fullback and crosses for Collins to half-volley in (Cheltenham).  I find it hard to give the manager too much credit when we've been borderline dysfunctional for big chunks of a game, but we won because we had better players and one of them did something.

[Jourdan]

38 minutes ago, May Contain Nuts said:

Simpe really. Managers don't tend to get much praise for being 'around par'. Especially when the football they're serving up is regularly so hard to watch.

Praise and criticism in equal measure is a bit of a pipedream and the improper distribution of it is hardly something you're immune from yourself.

The problem isn't that we're not playing scintillating football, it's that on more occasions than a few we've barely even looked like a team at all and that's easily attributable to the way we set up. I'm sure most of Warne's current critics would accept us playing football which is a bit more 'dull', but a lot more organised because they'd at least see how the we take what we're doing forward and build on it to successfully play it at a higher level.

It's why on the other thread you have people rating Cocu above Warne - that certainly can't be because of their respective results on the pitch.

And you can't just write off how disjointed it is because "we are also in League 1 with a squad of League 1 footballers," that's just such a weak get-out, as if it's impossible for a League One club to have a coherent manner of playing. We're not asking for that every single week, but more than once a month would be encouraging!

I am not sure that’s true. In recent times, Cocu, Rooney and Rosenior all received praise and a level of understanding even though results and performances were often less than ideal. Lampard too. Rowett far less so.

For some, Rooney, for example, could do no wrong. He could unmask Rammie and destroy the innocence of five year olds everywhere and someone somewhere would be chanting Rooney! Rooney! Rooney!

Is equal praise and criticism really a pipe dream, or are fans who are turned off by Warne more likely to be reluctant to dish out praise? During any good spell we have had, there has been a clear effort to dismiss what’s happening rather than give credit for getting the job done. It’s not always easy as we can see with other teams in the league having mixed results.

How often have we had a settled side under Warne? Not very often. But when it is, I would say more often than not, you can see something emerging. Again, perspective is everything. I would say with better players and more money to spend, there is no reason Warne can get us playing better football even in the Championship.

It’s not impossible for a League 1 side to deliver a coherent style but surely you understand the lower down the pyramid you go, you are working with less talented, less consistent, and more error-prone players so the more complex and more time consuming that becomes to achieve.

Warne has been here for 15 months. Is it enough time to have everything running smoothly like clockwork?

[Gerry Daly]

When you set aside all the argument, all the theory and just go with your gut feeling about Warne where are you at. We can see and feel the evidence for that collectively by the atmosphere in the ground and the length of this thread despite our league position

[SSD]

I think in years gone by I don't think it would have mattered what type of football you played to gain promotion to the Championship, it was more based on budgets and the quality of squad to keep you up. Of course, these points still matter. I believe with teams who go up, you have to try and focus on more control of the ball in possession and midfield is really instrumental in keeping the team ticking over.

Peterborough are a prime example of trying to go all guns blazing, works great in League One, every time they gain promotion it's straight back down the slide because it does not work in a better division. I know Rotherham have a small budget and it's mainly why they've struggled to go much further. You hear the feedback from their supporters when Warne was manager, they just did not adapt to a different level. If Warne does get us out of this absolute pit of a league, which I believe he will, he has got to start thinking of another way to keep us in the Championship. I appreciate he wants to do everything at 100mph and make the team monster running machines, it usually keeps the team in games at the end. When he is up against a half decent side in the Championship, the team will get picked off very quickly, even lesser League One sides can do it. It has happened to every single Rotherham side Warne took charge of.

I wouldn't be surprised if he tries to go wing backs again, he is that stubborn. I hope he reflects and realises to change it up, adapt to a higher standard of football. I just don't think he will. It's becoming more clear as time goes on that he will have that L1 Neil Warnock tag. I thought he was more intelligent enough to bring his winning formula but choose the right moments when to break, when to keep the ball. It's a shame I feel this way because he's a very honourable man. From watching his Derby side for nearly 18 months, grinding along every match is not a good platform for a promotion winning side.

 

[May Contain Nuts]

1 hour ago, Jourdan said:

I am not sure that’s true. In recent times, Cocu, Rooney and Rosenior all received praise and a level of understanding even though results and performances were often less than ideal. Lampard too. Rowett far less so.

For some, Rooney, for example, could do no wrong. He could unmask Rammie and destroy the innocence of five year olds everywhere and someone somewhere would be chanting Rooney! Rooney! Rooney!

Is equal praise and criticism really a pipe dream, or are fans who are turned off by Warne more likely to be reluctant to dish out praise? During any good spell we have had, there has been a clear effort to dismiss what’s happening rather than give credit for getting the job done. It’s not always easy as we can see with other teams in the league having mixed results.

How often have we had a settled side under Warne? Not very often. But when it is, I would say more often than not, you can see something emerging. Again, perspective is everything. I would say with better players and more money to spend, there is no reason Warne can get us playing better football even in the Championship.

It’s not impossible for a League 1 side to deliver a coherent style but surely you understand the lower down the pyramid you go, you are working with less talented, less consistent, and more error-prone players so the more complex and more time consuming that becomes to achieve.

Warne has been here for 15 months. Is it enough time to have everything running smoothly like clockwork?

I'll give you your due, you're slick. An expensive PR team couldn't do a better job of selling the image you wish to portray of yourself on here. You should probably apply to be on the next season of The Traitors, get the money back you've spent on the wedding and then some!

You were absolutely anything but even handed and fair in your attitude toward Cocu. The absolute master of saying "I understand and sympathise with the difficulties" to make it sound like you were being fair, and then not applying that understanding when it came to judgement time.

The way you've backed Warne, hedging your bets after seeing an opportunity to be 'right' about him given the odds of him being a success here are stacked in his favour, again, impressive. The way you went after posters who'd doubted him after our unbeaten run last season rather distasteful, however.

You've recently posted about how you were critical of him after Stevenage and Reading games, all that says to me is you've read the room and waited for a moment where it would be almost impossible not to be critical. Well done. Good game playing.

I agree with the point about Rooney though, A lot of what he said and did was part of a PR game too, and people fell for that! Freedom of the City FML!

The rest of your post is just supposition. Does any manager truly have a settled side? Will having better players remove Warne's tactical blindspots, the ones we keep having to come up with some individual brilliance to cover up? What if, despite our signings, we still have a bottom 3 squad - does Warne have anything in his locker to get them performing above that standard? There's no evidence so far to say he can get a team functioning collectively to a level that belies the quality of his squad.

You're saying that there's a 'clear effort to dismiss what's happening' but don't consider that it works both ways. Most of Warne's critics (previous to our good run, anyway) have been because of what is happening, most of his defenders center on what might happen. There's a clear effort, of which you're currently leading the charge,  to dismiss just how low quality the opposition we're up against this season, and use the results of other teams as a distraction in order to to pretend that Warne has it all on to get a top 3/6 side placed in the top 3/6.

15 months is plenty of time to have things running far smoother than they are, yes. Mousinho at Portsmouth managed (6 months into the job) to get a squad featuring more new signings than ours playing cohesively as a unit right from the off.  They've faltered recently, of course, but they're still top of the table and that's because they started the season with workmanlike and well organised, consistent (if uninspiring) performances.

Edited January 29 by May Contain Nuts

[May Contain Nuts]

Oh, but in your defence I do imagine / believe that you're a really good bloke IRL - there's only really one or two posters I don't believe that of - none of the above is meant to be personal, I just see your postings sometimes as almost coming from a fictional character! 😅

Edited January 29 by May Contain Nuts

[Anag Ram]

I do smile when I read the criticism of Warne’s interviews and in particular his tendency to ‘build ‘em up and knock ‘em down’.

We, and I include myself in this, then say ‘yeah we may be fourth, amongst the leading scorers and with an away record we could only dream of a few years back, but the football is awful!’

Oh the irony😊

I do cringe when I imagine the manager/ players reading our posts. I guess they don’t, given the fact they always manage to clap the crowd at the end of games.

The relationship between fans and the staff is very much a sibling one, with lots of squabbles along the way. 

[LeedsCityRam]

4 hours ago, Jourdan said:

@LeedsCityRam 

The quality of football is not high but we are also in League 1 with a squad of League 1 footballers, so quality and consistency are naturally difficult to maintain. If you are realistic about where we are, then perhaps it’s not so disappointing that we struggle in that department.

Some people believe we have the best squad in the league and should be a cert for top two. For me, we are a competitive top six side with an outside chance of top two. That always seemed likely to me as Bolton, Barnsley and Peterborough were better than us last season and have also looked to improve.

I am not really frustrated about people’s gripes over the style of play or generally not fazed by people not appreciating the job Warne is doing. I have too at times commented that it can be frustrating and also at times commented that Warne needs to step things up. 

I was all over the thread on Tuesday saying that it wasn’t good enough v Reading. I was all over the Stevenage thread saying Warne’s position was in trouble. The difference is that it seems that some people don’t seem willing to praise and criticise in equal measure and be balanced in their views. The praise was begrudging even when we won 8 games out of 9 recently. It feels like nothing will ever be enough for some.

In terms of meeting expectation, I would say that Warne is around par. Missing out on the playoffs last season was disappointing and being in the top six now is expected. Some of the opposition teams have good squads and equally good individual talent and experienced managers at this level (see Bolton and Peterborough with Evatt and Ferguson) that are proving just as canny. I don’t see that we can be dismissive of that.

Thanks for the reasoned post - appreciate that.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree about the chances of top two - I think it is a stronger claim than an outside chance. As I've mentioned a few times elsewhere, there will be very few seasons where the 3 relegated sides from the Championship make no impact on a League One promotion race. Add that to our budget (described as competitive by Clowes), existing squad (Championship interest in Bird, Cashin, NML, Nyambe etc), undoubted pull (who else in this division could have convinced Blackett-Taylor to join?) and a manager with a reputation as a League One promotion specialist & I think the expectations should be automatic promotion.

I'd agree with you Bolton are very strong but the remainder have vulnerabilities. Pompey have had their rookie manager for a mere 6 months & have been upper midtable for the past few seasons, Peterborough are skint, have a small squad & are losing their main striker (and only sneaked ahead of us last year), Barnsley lost a very good manager in the summer and Oxford/Stevenage are dropping off as everyone expected. This is a real opportunity for us & this underpins the frustration at the limp performances. We can't continue in this vein or we will start dropping points - this is even before we start considering how sustainable this style would potentially be in the division above.

From a results POV, Warne is about par - I agree with you there. I do not think he is over-achieving or getting the maximum from this group though and results are largely earnt by individual flashes of quality rather than slick team displays. You make a point in a later post asking whether 16 months in charge is enough to get the side working well - Warne is now the 27th longest serving manager out of 92 in the Prem/EFL i.e. he is virtually in the upper quartile & therefore I believe its fair to start holding him to account for what we're watching.

My hope is that having seen the improvement on Saturday when we had a Fornah/Bird/ Thompson midfield on the park, Warne sticks to that & we start to impose ourselves more on the opposition. Like yourself, I will call it as I see it & if we play well, I'm happy to acknowledge that. I want us to be better, we can be better & we must be better or Warne is looking at his last 17 matches in charge. For the record & as a nod to the thread title, I'm comfortable him remaining in post until the end of the season.

[kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong]

2 hours ago, SSD said:

I think in years gone by I don't think it would have mattered what type of football you played to gain promotion to the Championship, it was more based on budgets and the quality of squad to keep you up. Of course, these points still matter. I believe with teams who go up, you have to try and focus on more control of the ball in possession and midfield is really instrumental in keeping the team ticking over.

Peterborough are a prime example of trying to go all guns blazing, works great in League One, every time they gain promotion it's straight back down the slide because it does not work in a better division. I know Rotherham have a small budget and it's mainly why they've struggled to go much further. You hear the feedback from their supporters when Warne was manager, they just did not adapt to a different level. If Warne does get us out of this absolute pit of a league, which I believe he will, he has got to start thinking of another way to keep us in the Championship. I appreciate he wants to do everything at 100mph and make the team monster running machines, it usually keeps the team in games at the end. When he is up against a half decent side in the Championship, the team will get picked off very quickly, even lesser League One sides can do it. It has happened to every single Rotherham side Warne took charge of.

I wouldn't be surprised if he tries to go wing backs again, he is that stubborn. I hope he reflects and realises to change it up, adapt to a higher standard of football. I just don't think he will. It's becoming more clear as time goes on that he will have that L1 Neil Warnock tag. I thought he was more intelligent enough to bring his winning formula but choose the right moments when to break, when to keep the ball. It's a shame I feel this way because he's a very honourable man. From watching his Derby side for nearly 18 months, grinding along every match is not a good platform for a promotion winning side.

 

We say that but when came to us,I think Rotherham were sixth or so in the championship but quickly slid away once warne left.

So he may have more of an idea than we think about managing in the champ...

Edited January 29 by kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong

[RoyMac5]

1 minute ago, kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong said:

We say that but when came to us,I think Rotherham were sixth or so in the championship but quickly slid away once warne left.

So he may have more of an idea than we think about managing in the champ...

They were kept up by their new manager, not something Warne managed to do.

Edited January 29 by RoyMac5

[Truckle]

Over 100 pages now!  Absolutely phenomenal.  Latest update, we have now taken 38 points from 17 games at 2.23 points per game since we started the thread.  

Can we keep on being cross for the run in?  We've got this.