A penny for David Clowes’ thoughts - and what comes next?

[Ambitious]

I know there are ample threads popping up all relating to a similar topic of discussion, but wanted to air this one out (for my own peace of mind) and gauge what the majority thought. 

I had day of mostly driving between meetings today and found myself replaying last night’s disaster in my head. I was driving for over an hour just exhausting my own thoughts and feelings on the game last night, without noticing that I hadn’t even turned the radio on. I honestly couldn’t think of another time a result/performance had such a detrimental impact on my view of the team, club and the way things were being run. Situations around the club, obviously have, but never one performance which made me think what does David Clowes actually make of it all?

By all accounts, he had a vision for Derby County which essentially accumulated to building a successful side on the back of being commercially savvy, recruiting well and while not banging ‘the Derby way’ drum, was definitely hopeful of an aesthetically pleasing football team to watch. We all understood he didn’t have Candy Crush money to burn, as did he, but I think we all hoped that the club would follow in the footsteps of other clubs who have built and not bought by making smart decisions and ultimately working harder than rival sides who share our aspirations. 

Last summer was a little bit of a rush job, but all things considered Rosenior (and probably Rooney initially) had done really well to work around our restrictions and build competitive side for the level we were at. The season got off to a steady yet slow start and with Rosenior only hired in an interim basis, I felt (and I imagine the majority) it was only a matter of time before he was hired on an official basis. Clowes, obviously, had other plans and to his credit wanted to do a thorough process and see what was available to him with the vision he had at the club. Warne was his choice and he pointed to his previous promotions at this level as the reason, few could argue against his points and reasoning, but obviously there were some reservations regarding his playing style, his previous relegations and how he would handle the move away from Rotherham above all else. 

Needless to say we saw a fairly quick change in our approach and we were moving the ball a lot faster down the pitch and having less possession. We then went on a little bit of a purple patch (20 unbeaten) but I felt just before we actually finally lost that we had seen performances slip and when we finally lost it was hard for us to get back on track. We had completely transitioned by that point into a more Warne set-up with 3 at the back a lot of the time over the final quarter of the season. Obviously, how we have started this season needs no further explanation otherwise this thread wouldn’t be a thing. 

On to the recruitment, namely Mark Thomas, who came in from Oxford following praise for his good work there. We were obviously looking for someone with a little bit of knowledge of our level and below, in my opinion, who had shown a competence in recruiting cheap(er) players who had potential to grow with the team. The summer recruitment, at least at this snapshot in time, looks a bit of a disaster. If you asked me who our best signing was from this summer based on minutes played, it would undoubtedly be Waghorn - a player invited to train with the club on nothing more than the proximity of his home. Not a player we scoped out, not a player we headhunted - a player who could probably peddle a bike into training should he so wish. 

We have had Paul Warne explain what he’s teams are all about: the high relentless press, the high energy, speed… the recruitment doesn’t mirror that in the slightest. We’ve signed players who fans would’ve heard of, out-of-contract from Championship clubs (for the most part) and above all else - experienced. The budget has been bemoaned but we have recruited in a far different fashion to every other League One club because no other League One club can afford to go and sign players who are accustom to Championship wages. You have to then think to the likes of Sonny Bradley who has had an horrendous start and been dragged off at half-time twice in four games. Both Warne and Thomas would’ve been banging Clowes’ table for him and saying how this is the guy who can lead this defence back into the Championship. Obviously the due diligence hadn’t been done because now it’s coming to light that he’s not looked remotely similar to the player he was since his injury - which is probably the player we’re watching now.

It brings me back to my point: What on earth must Clowes be thinking? He’s given Warne and his staff the keys to the castle based on what he told him and now four games in the whole thing looks like a dog’s dinner - substantially worse than where we were 12 months ago under Rosenior. A decision, I’m absolutely sure, he would reverse if given the opportunity to replay it again. He now has to consider the direction of the club and importantly how to direct it again in a progressive direction. I don’t believe Clowes is someone who is going to drop a guy with 3 years left on his contract without substantial reason so I question what comes next - does he refresh the recruitment of the club? Does he try and have some influence over the football operation of the club - perhaps even hire a director of football to steer the direction for him as he has seen how even the best laid plans can capitulate when decisions aren’t aligned, i.e. playing recruitment and playing style. 

I feel for the bloke because ultimately the weight is heavy on his shoulders and the club is a pressure cooker at the moment. 

[Srg]

Tl;dr?

[RoyMac5]

16 minutes ago, Ambitious said:

It brings me back to my point: What on earth must Clowes be thinking? He’s given Warne and his staff the keys to the castle based on what he told him and now four games in the whole thing looks like a dog’s dinner - substantially worse than where we were 12 months ago under Rosenior. A decision, I’m absolutely sure, he would reverse if given the opportunity to replay it again. He now has to consider the direction of the club and importantly how to direct it again in a progressive direction. I don’t believe Clowes is someone who is going to drop a guy with 3 years left on his contract without substantial reason so I question what comes next - does he refresh the recruitment of the club? Does he try and have some influence over the football operation of the club - perhaps even hire a director of football to steer the direction for him as he has seen how even the best laid plans can capitulate when decisions aren’t aligned, i.e. playing recruitment and playing style. 

I feel for the bloke because ultimately the weight is heavy on his shoulders and the club is a pressure cooker at the moment. 

I think Clowes is used to the pressure of running a business successfully. The difference here is it is now a business he has no prior knowledge of running. I think he was hoping to put 'transferable skills' into play, but it hasn't worked. I hope and assume he will review the current situation, after Warne has been in post for nearly a year, with a businessman's eye. If what has been suggested about Pearce and valuing Cashin & Bird more highly than Warne owing to their previous Championship experience is true then there is a battle incoming. Or maybe just a re-assessment and a sacking/mutual agreement leading to a new manager coming in. DC has been in post long enough now to get the hang of things, this is his first major challenge and from what has been hinted at by Warne, and now largely suggested in a different way by Percy, we might be coming to a point of 'separation' or resolution.

Edited August 16, 2023 by RoyMac5

[May Contain Nuts]

If I was in his position I'd probably thinking that talk is cheap and feel a bit foolish for being drawn in by a car salesman-type and giving him a 4 year contract as a football manager, but that I can't really see, or afford, a way out without drawing unwanted comparisons to my predecessor.

I'm not David Clowes though, nor am I suggesting that this is or should also be his thought process.

Edited August 16, 2023 by Kokosnuss

[oomarkwright]

The way I see it it's the same as I said last week.

Clowes chose to effectively remove Ros, and give 4 men a 4 year contract so that means he needs to hold his nerve and play the long game. Can we really afford to get rid of PW's whole staff? 

Even if that means giving up on promotion for this season, holding tight in league one mid table obscurity and give it a proper go once the full EFL business plan has been achieved. 

I think things WILL calm down once the window shuts. Get thru to the international break and continue to work on fitness and patterns of play. 

We would not be out of it in 10th in January and COULD make a few more finishers signings like Bolton did last Jan. This would leave us in a better position next season. 

I'm not a Season Ticket holder so this sounds depressing for you guys but we need to look at the bigger picture. 

Knee jerk sackings R pointless or wishing we'd have kept rozzy now. A lot hated the slow football and were looking to see a change then. 

I am still grateful we have a football club and hope DC stays out of the football decisions but together with PW they need to work at changing things to improve results, and perhaps even more team spirit and unity.

[Anag Ram]

Not great to hear as a season ticket holder from Bristol 😩

[DarkFruitsRam7]

26 minutes ago, Ambitious said:

I know there are ample threads popping up all relating to a similar topic of discussion, but wanted to air this one out (for my own peace of mind) and gauge what the majority thought. 

I had day of mostly driving between meetings today and found myself replaying last night’s disaster in my head. I was driving for over an hour just exhausting my own thoughts and feelings on the game last night, without noticing that I hadn’t even turned the radio on. I honestly couldn’t think of another time a result/performance had such a detrimental impact on my view of the team, club and the way things were being run. Situations around the club, obviously have, but never one performance which made me think what does David Clowes actually make of it all?

By all accounts, he had a vision for Derby County which essentially accumulated to building a successful side on the back of being commercially savvy, recruiting well and while not banging ‘the Derby way’ drum, was definitely hopeful of an aesthetically pleasing football team to watch. We all understood he didn’t have Candy Crush money to burn, as did he, but I think we all hoped that the club would follow in the footsteps of other clubs who have built and not bought by making smart decisions and ultimately working harder than rival sides who share our aspirations. 

Last summer was a little bit of a rush job, but all things considered Rosenior (and probably Rooney initially) had done really well to work around our restrictions and build competitive side for the level we were at. The season got off to a steady yet slow start and with Rosenior only hired in an interim basis, I felt (and I imagine the majority) it was only a matter of time before he was hired on an official basis. Clowes, obviously, had other plans and to his credit wanted to do a thorough process and see what was available to him with the vision he had at the club. Warne was his choice and he pointed to his previous promotions at this level as the reason, few could argue against his points and reasoning, but obviously there were some reservations regarding his playing style, his previous relegations and how he would handle the move away from Rotherham above all else. 

Needless to say we saw a fairly quick change in our approach and we were moving the ball a lot faster down the pitch and having less possession. We then went on a little bit of a purple patch (20 unbeaten) but I felt just before we actually finally lost that we had seen performances slip and when we finally lost it was hard for us to get back on track. We had completely transitioned by that point into a more Warne set-up with 3 at the back a lot of the time over the final quarter of the season. Obviously, how we have started this season needs no further explanation otherwise this thread wouldn’t be a thing. 

On to the recruitment, namely Mark Thomas, who came in from Oxford following praise for his good work there. We were obviously looking for someone with a little bit of knowledge of our level and below, in my opinion, who had shown a competence in recruiting cheap(er) players who had potential to grow with the team. The summer recruitment, at least at this snapshot in time, looks a bit of a disaster. If you asked me who our best signing was from this summer based on minutes played, it would undoubtedly be Waghorn - a player invited to train with the club on nothing more than the proximity of his home. Not a player we scoped out, not a player we headhunted - a player who could probably peddle a bike into training should he so wish. 

We have had Paul Warne explain what he’s teams are all about: the high relentless press, the high energy, speed… the recruitment doesn’t mirror that in the slightest. We’ve signed players who fans would’ve heard of, out-of-contract from Championship clubs (for the most part) and above all else - experienced. The budget has been bemoaned but we have recruited in a far different fashion to every other League One club because no other League One club can afford to go and sign players who are accustom to Championship wages. You have to then think to the likes of Sonny Bradley who has had an horrendous start and been dragged off at half-time twice in four games. Both Warne and Thomas would’ve been banging Clowes’ table for him and saying how this is the guy who can lead this defence back into the Championship. Obviously the due diligence hadn’t been done because now it’s coming to light that he’s not looked remotely similar to the player he was since his injury - which is probably the player we’re watching now.

It brings me back to my point: What on earth must Clowes be thinking? He’s given Warne and his staff the keys to the castle based on what he told him and now four games in the whole thing looks like a dog’s dinner - substantially worse than where we were 12 months ago under Rosenior. A decision, I’m absolutely sure, he would reverse if given the opportunity to replay it again. He now has to consider the direction of the club and importantly how to direct it again in a progressive direction. I don’t believe Clowes is someone who is going to drop a guy with 3 years left on his contract without substantial reason so I question what comes next - does he refresh the recruitment of the club? Does he try and have some influence over the football operation of the club - perhaps even hire a director of football to steer the direction for him as he has seen how even the best laid plans can capitulate when decisions aren’t aligned, i.e. playing recruitment and playing style. 

I feel for the bloke because ultimately the weight is heavy on his shoulders and the club is a pressure cooker at the moment. 

As I’ve said in the other thread, I think a DoF or equivalent is an absolute must in the long term. I can’t see us getting to the Premier League (which has to be the ultimate aim) without one. Championship clubs (and no doubt this applies to League One too) are far, far smarter than they were 5 years ago and we’re in danger of being left behind.

[Tyler Durden]

It's not a pressure cooker at the moment.

It only appears to be as the fire is being stoked by the persistence of folks creating thread after thread after thread discussing the same talking point.

Am sure that Clowes has had to make far more difficult decision during his career which is why he's a successful businessman.

How do you know the weight is heavy on his shoulders? Is he a personal friend or confident?

If he ever reads this forum he's probably wondering what he got himself in for after reading the level of hysteria following 4 games. 

[TomTom92]

Excellent post. 
 
To say I feel sorry for the guy is a step too far, after all he’s wealthy and looks healthy. 
 
But I do think truth be told between him and the fly on the wall, if he could get rid of Warne and it not be so detrimental or risky to the team he would. We’ve started so poor, the team looks lost and as one person put ‘it makes Rowett’s football seem like Barcelona’.

Personally I think he has three options; Sack Warne and bring in who he see’s fit. Bring in a DoF and give them the remit of advising him accordingly come christmas. Or come out and dampen expectations and give Warne the vote of confidence and us fans have to suck it and see.

Personally I’m leaning towards the DoF option first. If Warne opposes the idea then that’s a reason to get rid. If he doesn’t then a seasoned footballing head can properly start to run the ship as he see’s fit.
 
I think this season is dead and buried already, it’s going to be a painful affair. Maybe if we can bring in a manager who can breathe fresh optimism in to the club that will stop the toxicity? 
 
The scary part is come next summer we’ll have another rebuild to undertake, with the likes of Nelson, Bradley and Washington all still under contract. 
 
Clowes’ decision to appoint Warne was bold and exciting at the time. However, it looks to be a mistake and a costly one at that.

[IlsonDerby]

11 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

It's not a pressure cooker at the moment.

It only appears to be as the fire is being stoked by the persistence of folks creating thread after thread after thread discussing the same talking point.

Am sure that Clowes has had to make far more difficult decision during his career which is why he's a successful businessman.

How do you know the weight is heavy on his shoulders? Is he a personal friend or confident?

If he ever reads this forum he's probably wondering what he got himself in for after reading the level of hysteria following 4 games. 

Almost 50 games unless we’re saying he can’t be judged until he’s had a run of games following on from making 18 signings so the squad is completely his. 

[Ambitious]

4 minutes ago, TomTom92 said:

Excellent post. 
 
To say I feel sorry for the guy is a step too far, after all he’s wealthy and looks healthy. 
 
But I do think truth be told between him and the fly on the wall, if he could get rid of Warne and it not be so detrimental or risky to the team he would. We’ve started so poor, the team looks lost and as one person put ‘it makes Rowett’s football seem like Barcelona’.

Personally I think he has three options; Sack Warne and bring in who he see’s fit. Bring in a DoF and give them the remit of advising him accordingly come christmas. Or come out and dampen expectations and give Warne the vote of confidence and us fans have to suck it and see.

Personally I’m leaning towards the DoF option first. If Warne opposes the idea then that’s a reason to get rid. If he doesn’t then a seasoned footballing head can properly start to run the ship as he see’s fit.
 
I think this season is dead and buried already, it’s going to be a painful affair. Maybe if we can bring in a manager who can breathe fresh optimism in to the club that will stop the toxicity? 
 
The scary part is come next summer we’ll have another rebuild to undertake, with the likes of Nelson, Bradley and Washington all still under contract. 
 
Clowes’ decision to appoint Warne was bold and exciting at the time. However, it looks to be a mistake and a costly one at that.

My only concern with a DoF is that it’s another person you’re handing the keys over too and even more control you’re relinquishing to someone who may be a disaster. A good one can be worth their weight in gold, but a bad one can set you back from where you want to be even further - significantly, if given enough freedom. 

I do agree that a DoF is the obvious choice, but it’s such a critical hire. 

[Ellafella]

Patience is required. Not mass hysteria. Warne will make changes and perhaps we’ll see a difference. Warne is rightly quick to say we don’t overhype wins nor do we get too despondent after defeat. “ If you can keep your head when all around are losing theirs, and blaming it on you, …”.

4 games in things are wrong with Plan A so we need a Plan B:

1. Revert to 4 at the back. 
2. Reward the players who’ve played well: therefore Waggy starts as does Thompson.

3. Focus on the midfield links between defence and attack. 
4. Try something boldly different- Rooney at CDM? Give Brown a berth on the bench; give him 10 minutes. 
 

Compare the difference at 17:05 on Saturday.
As for Mr Clowes, he’ll send a message of support and say if you want to chat you’ve got my number and if Warne rings him, he’ll listen and give his view. Rome wasn’t built in a day and Mr Clowes totally gets that. 

[LazloW]

How many threads about the same thing are needed?

[oodledoodle]

People aren't down because we lost. It's the manner of the loss, the fact we're getting beaten to players by everyone else in the league, a manager telling jokes in every post match after we lose, looking down the barrel of a season that not many of us see much to be excited about. Things just look absolutely dire at the moment.

Things do change quickly in football though.

[Rammeister]

1 hour ago, Srg said:

Tl;dr?

Executive Summary:

What will David Clowes do next?

[RAM1966]

A DOF?  FFS hell no, they always go on a collision course with the manager at some point, the Chairmen then has a difficult decision to make, sack the manager and give the DOF the role or get rid of the DOF.  The answer is get a manager that is competent full stop, look at the Dogs recruiting panel, how successful has that been?  

Edited August 16, 2023 by RAM1966

[sage]

47 minutes ago, oomarkwright said:

The way I see it it's the same as I said last week.

Clowes chose to effectively remove Ros, and give 4 men a 4 year contract so that means he needs to hold his nerve and play the long game. Can we really afford to get rid of PW's whole staff? 

Even if that means giving up on promotion for this season, holding tight in league one mid table obscurity and give it a proper go once the full EFL business plan has been achieved. 

I think things WILL calm down once the window shuts. Get thru to the international break and continue to work on fitness and patterns of play. 

We would not be out of it in 10th in January and COULD make a few more finishers signings like Bolton did last Jan. This would leave us in a better position next season. 

I'm not a Season Ticket holder so this sounds depressing for you guys but we need to look at the bigger picture. 

Knee jerk sackings R pointless or wishing we'd have kept rozzy now. A lot hated the slow football and were looking to see a change then. 

I am still grateful we have a football club and hope DC stays out of the football decisions but together with PW they need to work at changing things to improve results, and perhaps even more team spirit and unity.

Unless there is a clause, where is limited compo, if he doesn't perform, perhaps not getting top 6

[Steve How Hard?]

18 minutes ago, RAM1966 said:

A DOF?  FFS hell no, they always go on a collision course with the manger at some point, the Chairmen then has a difficult decision to make, sack the manager and give the DOF the role or get rid of the DOF.  The answer is get a manager that can do both, look at the Dogs recruiting panel, how successful has that been?  

I agree. Another expense we can ill afford. 

[Leeds Ram]

Great OP. Really feel for Clowes who is a proper fan and saved us from oblivion. I do think he made an error of judgement in appointing Warne and I did at the time as I wanted Rosenior to stay in post at least until Christmas to see if he could solve the horrible away form. But I don't think we can afford to sack him, Warne's got to leave of his own accord if he does go. I imagine Clowes is taking a longer-term view of this than many of us and thinking a season or 2 of bad results will eventually be worth it to remould the club in Warne's image and hoping success will follow. 

[Rammy03]

4 hours ago, TomTom92 said:

I think this season is dead and buried already

Remember our local rivals, rock bottom of the league after 8 games and then promoted to the premier League in the same season?