Summer Rumour Mill

[Ghost of Clough]

1 hour ago, S8TY said:

No I said I’m not a big fan what I’m saying is we can’t have a midfieId devoid of goals …that what we’d have with knight and Bird 

I don’t see Bird as a Bannan type midfielder he’s not quick or defensively astute at times ..but saying that he’s not a bad player of course 

what I’ve said from the start is we need goals in midfieId so playing both knight and Bird would mean the emphasis is on forwards to get the goals 

so I’d look for someone different meaning losing Bird or Knight …IF we reinvest the money correctly it could be good business 

I dont think a single person has said we should get rid of Hourihane to have a Bird-Knight midfield 2, so it's odd that you're now using that as an argument to support your original point - you would sell one of then to 'rebuild' the side.

Bird and Hourihane combined played in 78% of the available minutes for a 2 man midfield. That 78% contributed to more goals than 100% of Plymouth's midfield usage, and were 2 or 3 goals behind Ipswich's. Add in the additional 22% of players and we matched Ipswich's 2 man midfield. Your statement of "need more goals in midfield" is factually incorrect since the two clubs which got automatic promotion didn't get more than us from that area of the field.

Bannan is another poor example to compare him against. Bannan is given absolute freedom to pick up positions to create goal scoring opportunities for his team. He has very little defensive responsibility, as shown by making almost half as many tackles per game as Bird. Bannan is often playing in much more advanced positions.

Once you strip out games played at AM, wing, or CF, there are only 6 players who gained more assists from CM than Bird in the league: Bannan, Hourihane, Phillips, Kane, Morrell, Morsy.

[Archied]

Jeez this thread is hard going these days ,, it’s like a professor Brian Cox lecture , this number , that number , this percentage that percentage, seems you need a masters in algebra to follow football 😂

[BuckoBeast]

Is this a Max Bird thread ?

[Jimbo Ram]

Any news BT before we all lose the will to live 🤣

[deanoakaram4life]

Think we’ll see Washington come in myself. Let’s hope Rotherham have decided to let him go, rather than us paying for him. Any news @Big Trav

[hintonsboots]

1 hour ago, Archied said:

Jeez this thread is hard going these days ,, it’s like a professor Brian Cox lecture , this number , that number , this percentage that percentage, seems you need a masters in algebra to follow football 😂

It’s the way Max Bird has been integrated into the thread.

[Ambitious]

2 hours ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

After the Norwich away game .  We won 1-0

I’ve just had a look and he didn’t say anything along the lines that he’s the best 18 year old he’s ever coached. He said his performance was extraordinary given he was in a new position and that he’s got something within himself, that he’s a winner so never has motivate him. Nice comments but nothing beyond the pale - not like Rooney saying Bird will be a mainstay in the England team. 

I do remember the game well, he was excellent that day, but we haven’t seen much if any progression from that point either. The same goes with Sibley, who is now a shadow of the player he was, and Bird. It’s sad really as they all had so much promise.

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

21 minutes ago, Ambitious said:

I’ve just had a look and he didn’t say anything along the lines that he’s the best 18 year old he’s ever coached. He said his performance was extraordinary given he was in a new position and that he’s got something within himself, that he’s a winner so never has motivate him. Nice comments but nothing beyond the pale - not like Rooney saying Bird will be a mainstay in the England team. 

I do remember the game well, he was excellent that day, but we haven’t seen much if any progression from that point either. The same goes with Sibley, who is now a shadow of the player he was, and Bird. It’s sad really as they all had so much promise.

He also said this.  Shame others haven't paid attention and other managers have used him as a workhorse since

His performance brought a smile to the face of manager Phillip Cocu , himself a very fine midfielder in his playing days with PSV Eindhoven, Barcelona and the Dutch national team.

Cocu turned the question on its head when asked what is it he likes about Knight? "What is there not to like about Jason?" he replied, the smile remaining on his face.

Praise for Knight kept coming. He gained national recognition when he was named in "The 11" by League Football Education (LFE), which honours 11 young footballers for their football and academic achievements.

Knight had represented the Republic of Ireland at under-17, 18 and 19 levels when he made his under-21 debut at the Toulon tournament in the summer and they reached the semi-finals before being beaten by Brazil.

Lampard liked what he saw in Knight, and so does Cocu.

 "When we started, he was too energetic," said Cocu, before explaining. "I know that is probably the wrong wording, but he was running all over the place. Now he is more loyal to his position. when it comes to finding the spaces where you have to be for the team, I think he is developing really well. He is taking advice, he is open to it.

[Ambitious]

2 minutes ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

He also said this.  Shame others haven't paid attention and other managers have used him as a workhorse since

His performance brought a smile to the face of manager Phillip Cocu , himself a very fine midfielder in his playing days with PSV Eindhoven, Barcelona and the Dutch national team.

Cocu turned the question on its head when asked what is it he likes about Knight? "What is there not to like about Jason?" he replied, the smile remaining on his face.

Praise for Knight kept coming. He gained national recognition when he was named in "The 11" by League Football Education (LFE), which honours 11 young footballers for their football and academic achievements.

Knight had represented the Republic of Ireland at under-17, 18 and 19 levels when he made his under-21 debut at the Toulon tournament in the summer and they reached the semi-finals before being beaten by Brazil.

Lampard liked what he saw in Knight, and so does Cocu.

 "When we started, he was too energetic," said Cocu, before explaining. "I know that is probably the wrong wording, but he was running all over the place. Now he is more loyal to his position. when it comes to finding the spaces where you have to be for the team, I think he is developing really well. He is taking advice, he is open to it.

It’s largely because of the coaching we’ve had since Cocu left - he was an exceptional coach, great for the young players but didn’t always translate into results. No surprise in some ways that our young players played their best football under him, even with their development anthropometrically. 

[Jourdan]

If we decide to cash in on Bird and Knight, then we have to trust Warne and the men behind the scenes.

I like both players but maybe they have reached their ceiling with us. At their age, they should be developing and improving year on year but they seem to have stagnated. Sometimes you can hold on to a young player for too long.

A fresh start might be exactly what both players need, especially as neither really made their mark in this division last season, well perhaps not to the levels we would have expected. They both excel at specifics, whereas we probably need midfielders who are more well rounded.

Personally I think we’ll be figured out pretty quickly if we persist with Bird and Knight as two key components of our midfield. Freshening things up and becoming more unpredictable would be a step in the right direction for me.

[Eoghan1884]

If we lose Bird and Knight we should replace them with El Mizouni and Brannigan, them two with Hourihane would be a great midfield in league one.

[Ambitious]

1 minute ago, Eoghan1884 said:

If we lose Bird and Knight we should replace them with El Mizouni and Brannigan, them two with Hourihane would be a great midfield in league one.

I hope we keep Bird as I feel like he can thrive in a 3-4-3 formation. Brannigan and Moxon for me. Moxon interests me the most for how quickly he developed in professional football and under competent coaching. He went from being a delivery driver playing part-time to being the best player, by some distance, in League Two. 

There is plenty of good central midfielders out there, but we have to find the best one who fits our system. Lewis Wing is an obvious one, but feel he will have a lot of options. 

[FKANorwichExile]

Hypothetically, if Bird wasn't one of our own and had signed a couple of years back, do you think so many would still be loyal to him as a player?

I'm a fan of his, I just think he was being used wrong last season (needs to be double pivot), but folks don't half get us riled up when he's criticised.

[vonwright]

47 minutes ago, NorwichExile said:

Hypothetically, if Bird wasn't one of our own and had signed a couple of years back, do you think so many would still be loyal to him as a player?

I'm a fan of his, I just think he was being used wrong last season (needs to be double pivot), but folks don't half get us riled up when he's criticised.

Think that bias towards 'our own' exists, is strong, and remains even after players leave the club. For example I'm still adamant Will Hughes should have played for England and Watford and Crystal Palace have both failed terribly to use him the right way.

But that's probably not true. 

Hendrick, Bogle were not as good as I thought. Delap clearly isn't and Ebiowei and Gordon probably won't be either. 

(Edit: I realise not everyone will consider Ebiowei one of 'our own' in the same way as the others given most of his development was elsewhere.)

Edited June 27, 2023 by vonwright

[kevinhectoring]

really hate this merry-go-round of players. Wouldn't mind it so much if we were going up in the world but being stuck in the third tier (the third tier) is not a strong place to sell the club from.  Those who said 2 seasons in div 1 might be good for us were fools.

(Think I might have said it actually but only once and without focusing on the inevitable exodus of talent after the failure to bounce straight back up)

[kevinhectoring]

2 hours ago, Jourdan said:

 

If we decide to cash in on Bird and Knight, then we have to trust Warne and the men behind the scenes.

 

do we have any other option? 

[vonwright]

4 minutes ago, kevinhectoring said:

really hate this merry-go-round of players. Wouldn't mind it so much if we were going up in the world but being stuck in the third tier (the third tier) is not a strong place to sell the club from.  Those who said 2 seasons in div 1 might be good for us were fools.

(Think I might have said it actually but only once and without focusing on the inevitable exodus of talent after the failure to bounce straight back up)

Agree and the strategy seems very much to build a squad of the right 'characters' who are proven at this level, which generally means 'plenty of experience, did well at League One, never really managed to convince beyond that'. Which is fine I guess, we are after all going all-out for promotion, only if we manage it what then? We've got another major rebuild on our hands. 

The only young talent to get excited about are players that were already here, weren't brilliant last year, and might leave.  

I guess that's the reality of where we are, and why you sign up someone like Warne. Like Billy Davies' team in 2007. Pragmatic. Almost to a man not good enough for the Premier League (and unlikely to ever become so) but so what? Get the job done. Focus on the short term. Promotion is all that matters. Stick with what you know. Worry about the future in the future. And that's probably the right thing, particularly when you factor in the financial constraints at the moment. But it would be nice to have a sprinkle of unknowns and might-becomes among the worthy journeymen signings.

[sage]

I find it quite sad that some posters want to jettison our best young players who came through the academy. We'll never have a team full of academy products, but surely seeing players make debuts at 16, 17 , 18 and establish themselves in the team, especially local lads, is part of the romance of football.

Anyone who isn't interested in that romance and is purely on a craven pursuit of success is frankly supporting the wrong team.

 

 

 

[Ambitious]

2 hours ago, NorwichExile said:

Hypothetically, if Bird wasn't one of our own and had signed a couple of years back, do you think so many would still be loyal to him as a player?

I'm a fan of his, I just think he was being used wrong last season (needs to be double pivot), but folks don't half get us riled up when he's criticised.

Bird was good last season, for the most part. He was a key component in our unbeaten run last season, equally his injury coincided with our downturn and that Harvey White, who came in to help cover him, wasn’t up to much.

I was more disappointed in Knight and Sibs. Bird was at least showing up as one of our best players, albeit momentarily. Knight played his best football ‘out of position’ earlier in the season. You would hope that all three would do well in the proposed formation. Sibley in an advanced role behind the striker, Bird and Knight in midfield playing box-to-box. It’s unlikely we will get to see it, but if all three could pull themselves together then you’ve got a brilliant midfield to build on. 

[jimtastic56]

7 hours ago, vonwright said:

Agree and the strategy seems very much to build a squad of the right 'characters' who are proven at this level, which generally means 'plenty of experience, did well at League One, never really managed to convince beyond that'. Which is fine I guess, we are after all going all-out for promotion, only if we manage it what then? We've got another major rebuild on our hands. 

The only young talent to get excited about are players that were already here, weren't brilliant last year, and might leave.  

I guess that's the reality of where we are, and why you sign up someone like Warne. Like Billy Davies' team in 2007. Pragmatic. Almost to a man not good enough for the Premier League (and unlikely to ever become so) but so what? Get the job done. Focus on the short term. Promotion is all that matters. Stick with what you know. Worry about the future in the future. And that's probably the right thing, particularly when you factor in the financial constraints at the moment. But it would be nice to have a sprinkle of unknowns and might-becomes among the worthy journeymen signings.

We have been left with a real “Open Goal” chance of promotion with the teams in our league this season. As you say-Let’s get the job done. But if we keep giving 3 year contracts to players who won’t hack it in the Championship will we rebuild again but have players sitting around for 2 years on decent wages?