Knight, Bird and Sibley

[Caerphilly Ram]

2 hours ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Since Warne will stick with 3/5 at the back from now on:

Wildsmith

???   Cashin   ???

???   Knight   Bird   Sibley   ???

???   McGoldrick

Wildsmith

Rooney   Cashin   Forsyth

NML  Knight  Bird  Hourihane   Roberts

Sibley   McGoldrick

Something like the above for me. Forsyth brings experience to the back 3, Rooney keeps a bit of balance as a right footer and athleticism that Davies/Chester/Stearman are lacking. Bird would have to screen the back 3 as Smith did so well the other day, Knight and Hourihane in theory offer legs and creativity ahead of Bird. NML and Roberts as the wing backs gives balance and athleticism, then Sibley and McGoldrick work in tandem as the front two, alternating between dropping deeper into the “hole” and playing further forward as a “9” I know it’s not Sibley’s natural role but we need a goal threat and he offers it, he could do a job up there for these final fixtures. Collins, Dobbin, Barkhuizen and Smith offer options to save legs and change the shape if needed. Well aware this isn’t what Warne will choose but it’s what I’d like to see.

 

[Ghost of Clough]

1 hour ago, RodleyRam said:

Fair question. If he's really intent on 3 at the back then I guess you could go 3-4-2-1 as above to get my two no.10s in! Not a fan of it with the personnel we have though. I think it leaves the right hand side exposed defensively and lightweight in the middle where I genuinely think we need to play 3 as you have it in your 3-5-2. Personally, I don't see Sibley as a CM/no.8. The fact that you have question marks for most of the team tells it's own story for me! We really don't have a player at the club who you could call a wingback, so I don't really understand why we would shoehorn like this but I do understand it's PW's preference.

Alternative to the above is that Sibley plays LWB as per below but it wouldn't be my preference. 

Wildsmith

Rooney   Cashin   Fozzy 

NML   Knight   Bird   Houri  Sibley

Collins  McGoldrick

All this said, the performance against MK playing 3/5 was decent enough, so what the hell do I know! I would argue that their goal came from NML being asked to play at RWB and the lack of cutting edge could have been rectified by having Sibley on the pitch for longer but where he goes in a 3-5-2 is unclear. 

I just think we need to have a formation that suits the personnel and it would be nice to see a side with Bird, Sibley and Knight all in their most natural roles.

I accept I'm just playing football manager and the likelihood of Sibley, Knight and Bird all being here next season is remote, so we'll probably never know!

Since Sibley's debut in 2019, Bird, Knight and Sibley have only started a single game together in midfield. We won that one 3-0 (Accrington, October 2022).
That's remarkable when you consider the trio have made a combined 442 first team appearances for us.

[Ambitious]

All three should have more impact on the game than they're currently having, perhaps all three could do with better coaching at this stage of their career too. 

I think I'm mostly disappointed in Knight, truthfully, as he's a player who should be taking the piss out of players at this level with the aspirations he has in the game. He is a good player for us, don't get me wrong, but he has struggled to stand out at this level. 2 goals and 3 assists in 33 League One games for a player who was expected to go on to the Premier League. 

Sibley hasn't been given a run in the team, consistently, but he's regressed as a footballer. He was better 3 years ago than he is now, but I feel is largely down to the club and coaching. 

Bird, I feel has probably improved as a footballer, but similarly to Knight just isn't having the impact at this level that he should and what you would expect to see - especially given the vocal praise he's received in the past. Rooney tipped him to play for England - I don't think  he meant England C either. 

[Jram]

3 hours ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Since Warne will stick with 3/5 at the back from now on:

Wildsmith

???   Cashin   ???

???   Knight   Bird   Sibley   ???

???   McGoldrick

I don’t hell drop Hourihane because he bums set pieces and he crosses the best ball in the division. In fairness to Hourihane, he’s been one of our better performers of late 

[Ghost of Clough]

1 minute ago, Jram said:

I don’t hell drop Hourihane because he bums set pieces and he crosses the best ball in the division. In fairness to Hourihane, he’s been one of our better performers of late 

I thought I was responding to a chain of comments on how to fit Sibley and McGoldrick both into the side.

Hourihane had a great game on Monday and I was surprised he was brought off. However, I think Sibley's set pieces are better and more consistent

[InstaRam]

To be honest I don't think we have been able to get the best out of the talent these three really has and that is a real shame. Either play them togheter in central midfield for an extended period of time or I am starting to think we might as well let them go. They have all been very loyal and it would not surprise me if they left and then developed into great Championship players or decent PL players one day. 

 

Would miss them and always want them back off course but sometimes it feels like "we" hold them back somehow. For some reason our set up does'nt seem to help players take that final development step where they just take that last big leap. 

 

Just a feeling though

[G STAR RAM]

On 10/04/2023 at 21:45, Bris Vegas said:

Our three jewels were all better playera during Phillip Cocu’s first season in charge.

They haven’t kicked on at all.

Put it down to managerial changes, the club situation, relegation…

But those three were tipped to become £10million+ PL regulars.

Now they don’t even stand out in League One.

I hope for their sake they move on and fulfill their potential elsewhere because I just can’t see it happening at Derby.

By who? The same 'experts' that said the same about Callum Ball, Miles Addison etc before them?

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

2 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

By who? The same 'experts' that said the same about Callum Ball, Miles Addison etc before them?

Great potential.  Till Clough broke him with those 99 minutes against Newcastle after 4 months out with a broken foot.  MOTM regardless. 

[MadAmster]

On 10/04/2023 at 23:14, enachops said:

I think that’s the point @David they’ve been messed around which has hindered their development, Sibley more so. He should have been ‘the one’. Rooney ruined him and he’s not recovered. He needs that bite in his game that many have criticised him for on here. I hope he can come good. I’ve no idea why managers haven’t played him in his best position. Such a waste.

Sibs can have the bite. That's not the issue. The real issue with him is that he  kept getting  stupid yellow cards out of frustration. Sometimes with teammates sometimes with the oppo. He was making tackles that were fouls for no footballing reason. His bite should be standing up for himself and not taking crap. That should be done in a hard but fair manner. His reactions were silly and not anything to do with having bite. This season he has almost eradicated the silliness from his game and is better for it. He still goes in 100%, as if he means it, and he does. He's merely cut out the stupid retaliations and is all the better for it.

Last season, if given a run at Left Back, he'd have been facing suspension after 8 games. Much more controlled this season. A season in which he's played LB, DM, wide right, wide left, striker and the number 10 role. Is it any wonder he hasn't made progress?

[TuffLuff]

It’s worth pointing out that when Knight, Sibley and Bird first broke through that Cocu side was effectively set up to get the best out of the young players. The model was effectively what happens to Bogle, in that they should get a couple of seasons i and around the first team, be sold for £5million plus and we bring through the next player in that position. A lot of Sibley and Knight’s goals in that first season were about the movement or lay offs from Martin and Waghorn. The three young players were learning from the experienced heads around them. The problems started in that second season, Martin was gone and Waghorn was a shell of his former self. You could also argue that Rooney was probably too late in his career to effectively mentor Bird on the pitch before his retirement. The season had turned into a scrap and with it, any sort of ‘on the pitch development’ of these players went with it. Although we stayed up the season we were under these long term embargo’s and couldn’t bring anyone in who could mentor these three.

I think that’s where we are. They effectively lost two years of mentorship and with it Derby have probably lost £10million plus in revenue. So that’s another knock on effect of the Mel Morris mess!

[OoooMarkWright]

21 minutes ago, MadAmster said:

Sibs can have the bite. That's not the issue. The real issue with him is that he  kept getting  stupid yellow cards out of frustration. Sometimes with teammates sometimes with the oppo. He was making tackles that were fouls for no footballing reason. His bite should be standing up for himself and not taking crap. That should be done in a hard but fair manner. His reactions were silly and not anything to do with having bite. This season he has almost eradicated the silliness from his game and is better for it. He still goes in 100%, as if he means it, and he does. He's merely cut out the stupid retaliations and is all the better for it.

Last season, if given a run at Left Back, he'd have been facing suspension after 8 games. Much more controlled this season. A season in which he's played LB, DM, wide right, wide left, striker and the number 10 role. Is it any wonder he hasn't made progress?

I disagree. He has lost his bite. He gets bullied off the ball more than he ever did and has lost an edge to his game. I go back to the Man Utd cup game, he had a great battle with McTominay not giving an inch. I’ve not seen that in the last 2 seasons. I’d rather the odd petulant booking than meek shadow performances. I feel he’s gone too far the other way and it’s had a negative effect on his game. 

I agree, the switch in positions has had a negative effect, I made that point earlier. It beggars belief why in this league, when we had Roberts fit, that Sibley wasn’t played further forward. 

[LN747]

I strangely thing that a season in Ligue One will help them to develop- and now push on and appreciate that they never want to sink to this level again!!! - Sadly i feel at least 2 of our yuongsters will move in. Cashin and Knight and probably Birdy - think they need to as they'd all be top 6 championship players easily...

[Rich3478]

6 hours ago, LN747 said:

I strangely thing that a season in Ligue One will help them to develop- and now push on and appreciate that they never want to sink to this level again!!! - Sadly i feel at least 2 of our yuongsters will move in. Cashin and Knight and probably Birdy - think they need to as they'd all be top 6 championship players easily...

I just don’t see it, we have mcgoldrick, Mendez Laing and hourihane who have all been called cheat codes in league one at some point this season.

then have our wonder kids who are all top six championship easily. Why are we struggling in league one?

knight definitely needs to pick a position, if is going to be wide player or attacking kid then needs a lot more goals and assists. If going to be a genuine centre mid then needs more discipline. Goes chasing the ball currently because it’s his strength. But don’t think it helps the team.

Bird I find the most underwhelming, doesn’t have many strengths apart from passing. But doesn’t control games often at all with his passing. Needs to be more positive and invisible with his passing. Should look to someone like Barry bannan.

Sibley the most talented, but finding a position a problem. Is probably as a 10. I’d love to see him given ten starts there with mcgoldrick as a 9. Did well at left back, left win doesn’t suit him at all. Or possibly as a genuine cm in a three.

[RoyMac5]

4 minutes ago, Rich3478 said:

I just don’t see it, we have mcgoldrick, Mendez Laing and hourihane who have all been called cheat codes in league one at some point this season.

then have our wonder kids who are all top six championship easily. Why are we struggling in league one?

knight definitely needs to pick a position, if is going to be wide player or attacking kid then needs a lot more goals and assists. If going to be a genuine centre mid then needs more discipline. Goes chasing the ball currently because it’s his strength. But don’t think it helps the team.

Bird I find the most underwhelming, doesn’t have many strengths apart from passing. But doesn’t control games often at all with his passing. Needs to be more positive and invisible with his passing. Should look to someone like Barry bannan.

Sibley the most talented, but finding a position a problem. Is probably as a 10. I’d love to see him given ten starts there with mcgoldrick as a 9. Did well at left back, left win doesn’t suit him at all. Or possibly as a genuine cm in a three.

I guess that's why teams send players on loan. We had to play them when they weren't ready, they need to be first choice in their position, so if not with us then out on loan. For me it should be Bird before White, Sibley before Dobbin, and Knight before many, but only if you're playing them where they play best.

[Jram]

Knight waved to the away end twice when subbed off. Looks like he’s gone but I suppose we all expected that 

[richinspain]

8 minutes ago, Jram said:

Knight waved to the away end twice when subbed off. Looks like he’s gone but I suppose we all expected that 

Although I agree that he probably will be gone, waving to the away end , even twice, doesn't necessarily mean that he is. Showing your gratitude for the support given to you personally can be just that.

[Raich Carter]

2 minutes ago, richinspain said:

Although I agree that he probably will be gone, waving to the away end , even twice, doesn't necessarily mean that he is. Showing your gratitude for the support given to you personally can be just that.

I dunno - I saw it the same as Jram in that it looked a bit more than that. It had a look of 'au revoir' about it for me.

Unless he goes for £3m (which transforms our summer signings (but is unlikely)) I sincerely hope we keep him. Proper grafter.

[NottsRammy]

You have to be kidding me all 3 are not good enough !!.

Wildesmith and Mcgoldrick and poss that haydon roberts i would keep all the rest can simply go . A few are just to old now Sorry curtis and craig forsyth both the latter good players but past their best .

Mr Curtis Davies is def a future rams manager .

But first let Mr Warne clear the garbage for next season , next season get promoted the money returns .

A wise rams fan right now would be backing for promotion NOT autos to much of a risk with a cheap squad . But warne will sign players in midfield with bite and players that can run and players that are around their mid 20's . 

Its NOT DOOM AND GLOOM !!

You will look back and at today and say thank god soon enough !! . 

 

 

Edited May 7, 2023 by NottsRammy

[Zag zig]

1 minute ago, Raich Carter said:

I dunno - I saw it the same as Jram in that it looked a bit more than that. It had a look of 'au revoir' about it for me.

Unless he goes for £3m (which transforms our summer signings (but is unlikely)) I sincerely hope we keep him. Proper grafter.

Same. If he’s pragmatic though, he’d want a move to a championship team, that on paper might challenge for promotion, purely for his own career prospects. Nobody should be begrudge him that, up to us to get the maximum fee we can!

Warne has said before, he won’t keep unhappy players, if you were Knight and interest appears, you would want to play higher; which given his full international career, he’s likely to attract attention.

Happy to be wrong but like Bielik, I think both will be off the books before the start of the season.

[Raich Carter]

For me, Forsyth, Davies, Stearman, Collins, Smith, Hourihane, Chester, Barkhuizen and all the loanees can go. If we can sign Roberts on a perm, I'd take him but otherwise, based on actual performances rather than reputation, I'd let the others go.

Barks, Collins, Smith and Hourihane have all been disappointing based on their pedigree. For a club in our position, we need either promising youngsters or rock solid elder pros. Hourihane and Smith might just be worth re-signing as they're not terrible but the others really haven't done it for me.

I'd keep NML - patchy but still a threat now and then.