Shamima Begum bid to regain UK citizenship rejected

[Crewton]

2 hours ago, RoyMac5 said:

So is that one of those 'Jimmy Saville' moments?

She was a child. But apparently that doesn't matter?

WTF????? 

[BriggRam]

Duck her.....let her rot in the desert

[G STAR RAM]

9 hours ago, Van der MoodHoover said:

On the news it said that the home secretary has powers to revoke citizenship on national security grounds (ie it is threatened).

Is that really the case here? Seems a punitive punishment to me.

Actually in interview shamima begum seemed quite resigned to her fate and rational. But isn't ISIS a busted flush? Regardless of how dangerous it was once upon a time?

I'm not sure a terrorist would announce that they had bad intentions before entering a country?

 

[sage]

7 hours ago, Carl Sagan said:

Morally, @DarkFruitsRam7is right in that she's our problem whether we like it or not, and it's grossly unfair to try to offload her onto Turkish Kurds or Bangladesh. We should deal with our own sh*t.

The problem with that is that we are hopeless at doing so. Partly the UK prison system has fallen so far into disrepair it's a hotbed for radicalization and terrorist recruitment. And partly because our judiciary has become a law unto itself, falling out of step with the will of the people and of Parliament. And partly because our legal system has become paralysed by a culture of lawyers forever being paid *vast* sums by the government (ie taxpayers) to contest government rulings in an attempt to prevent anything happening, often supported by a "progressive" media. To fix this requires time and a massive culture change and I don't think anyone has the energy - so the gears will grind ever more slowly, wrong judgments will continue to be given and things will likely continue to decline.

For the purposes of national security the rights of the innocent citizens of this country should take priority over her individual rights so she (and the hundreds of others - she's just the tip of the iceberg) should be locked up until such time as it can be clearly demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt that she is not a threat to the UK. But if that were to happen, once inside she'd probably be out of sight, out of mind because prison's like that, and it isn't fair. And if she went in thinking she'd made a terrible mistake and wanted to make amends, by the time she came out she'd only be a radical islamist again.

But in practice it almost certainly wouldn't happen and when she comes back (I expect it is when not if) then it will turn out we're not allowed to deny her her liberty so she will be out walking the streets, posssibly remorseful or more likely trying to bring the state down and see more innocent people killed. Which could be any one of us. If terrorists are prepared to blow up a gig attended by schoolgirls (which she expressed her support for in an early interview before the lawyers got hold of her and told her to shut her mouth), and sever the heads of anyone they object to, they don't have any qualms about bombing football stadiums. Would her return make that even a little more likely? Probably.

It's kind of a lose-lose situation. How has it come to this? As a nation we have stood by and allowed this to happen and there is now no good route forward. I don't know what the answer is but hers was a young mind "radicalized" as it's easy to do with young minds. The problem is all religions are in the business of radicalizing young minds, but we don't always call it that. Some forms we allow, while others are beyond the pale. The lines shift over time. I would argue that all religions are crazy and simply systems of control, and all are dangerous, but some are more dangerous than others. Here's a debate featuring the marvellous (by this point shortly to die from his cancer) Christopher Hitchens debating the question, "Is Islam a Religion of Peace?"

 

Wow

Where to begin.

How do you define 'will of the people'? And how does that work in legal matters?

Who are the progressive media? Do you think that overall, the media is to progressive? How do you define progressive as a bad thing?

At what point to we abandon innocent until proven guilty? Is that just for certain people ?

Should we also lock up Christains who oppose the law, such as gay marriage?

 

 

 

[Stive Pesley]

Some interesting contradictions here. Apparently if you decide to join ISIS at 15 then you know what you are doing and you don't need protection, you need stripping of your citizenship and banishing to the desert, or failing that -  you need locking up forever as punishment

Yet the same people argue that anyone aged 15 who wants to change gender is nought but a child who deserves our protection so that they can stay trapped in the body they were born with

Almost as if the key thing here isn't the individual, but the need of those judging to control the lives of others

[RoyMac5]

Edit: Can't be bothered to argue about it. She was a child.

Edited February 23, 2023 by RoyMac5

[Ram-Alf]

Jack Letts also known as "Jihadi Jack" in or off to Canada as he's a dual national back to live with his parents there, Did his Mother have her National identity stripped as she was funding his Islamic ideals?...No!

The Government have got themselves stuck between a rock and a hard place with their entrenchment, 100s of terrorists have been quietly brought back from the "grips" of ISIS.

I'm certainly not advocating Begum coming back, But if her case is eventually won then she should be tried for being a terrorist in our courts...but I doubt that would happen, New Identity and a safe place, The latter being a very difficult ask as there's people out there who would do...well you know.

We vote for Politicians to represent us, Once in Westminster our representatives toe the party line, All Government Ministers make decisions that effect our daily lives...whether we like it or not, In Begums case...the Law has backed this Government...for now. 

[Leeds Ram]

The idea that she didn't know what she was doing is a bit ridiculous once you take one look at the evidence. She volunteered, was, according to eyewitnesses, an active member in the organisation (joined the hisbah i.e., the morality police of IS and helped stitch suicide belts into fighters' clothes) and, when interviewed, remained a believer in the organisation. This was not a young girl 'trapped' in an evil organisation, but rather, she was an active and willing participant. Even in subsequent interviews, she was an apologist for them and some journalists who have interviewed her have expressed their concern over her willingness to both obfuscate her true role as well as remaining apparently sympathetic to IS ideology.

The precedent many often give is that of young Nazis; we didn't prosecute anyone under the age of 18 at Nuremberg or other criminal trials. They also, if my memory serves me well, did not have to go through the process of de-Nazification, given they were a minor. However, those children existed in a totalitarian society, not a free and open democratic society, therefore, making it completely different. Given the increasing calls to lower the vote to 16, are we really saying someone at 16 is mature enough to vote, yet someone at 15 is liable to be 'groomed' into believing IS was 'paradise on earth'? For me, it's hard to say at 15 that she wasn't cognisant of what she was doing, and the 'human trafficking' charge would only relate to the Turkish and Syrian border, which she needed help crossing. She made her own way to Turkey after all. 

So, I don't have any sympathy for her or 'what she's been through'. She was an active and willing member of a genocidal organisation that practised public crucifixion, slavery, beheadings, and was too extreme even for Al-Qaeda, an organisation which, even after its almost total collapse, she kept apologising for. The question of whether she should be let back into the country is tough. We are in all but name, making her stateless as Bangladesh won't take her. It's also generally a bad idea to take away people's citizenship, and there is a strong case that she should face at least numerous anti-terror charges and possibly even a treason charge (I'm a political theorist, not a lawyer, though, so may be wrong).

However, people pretending she doesn't remain a threat are naive in the extreme. She could not be trusted with her liberty for years, if ever, precisely because of the lone wolf threat that terrorist organisations pose. The same is true of all IS members who have been allowed back into the country for that matter. It's a horrible mess and one the government can't extricate itself from easily. But, whilst Begum is on the Times front cover, begging to be let back in, I cannot sympathise with her. My sympathies lie with those who were butchered, enslaved, and raped by this organisation. 

 

Edited February 23, 2023 by Leeds Ram

[Leeds Ram]

 

11 hours ago, Van der MoodHoover said:

On the news it said that the home secretary has powers to revoke citizenship on national security grounds (ie it is threatened).

Is that really the case here? Seems a punitive punishment to me.

Actually in interview shamima begum seemed quite resigned to her fate and rational. But isn't ISIS a busted flush? Regardless of how dangerous it was once upon a time?

Just because IS has lost its territory doesn't mean Begum isn't a threat. A number of terrorist organisations, including IS, have encouraged 'lone wolves' to go out and do as much damage as they can. Peter Bergen has written on the American context of either lone wolves or very small cells of people who can commit terrible violence and the necessary security architecture required to mitigate the chances of said violence occurring. 

[Anon]

Begum (and her army of simps for that matter) are irredeemable scum in my opinion, but by the letter of the law she absolutely should be repatriated.

If only our government and civil servants could work as hard at keeping illegal migrants out of the country as they have on this one single citizen.

Edited February 23, 2023 by Anon

[Stive Pesley]

3 minutes ago, Anon said:

If only our government could work as hard at keeping illegal migrants out of the country as they have on this one single citizen.

As always - I much prefer it when people don't disguise their right-wing views with claims of being oh-so moderate centrists

Respect

[Archied]

54 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

As always - I much prefer it when people don't disguise their right-wing views with claims of being oh-so moderate centrists

Respect

Tut tut tut ,,, can we not stop this right wing / woke name calling stuff, there are many valid reasons why people object to the issue of people entering the country illegally with no checks on who they are and what they’re motives are ,

though I’m not sure that recent demos outside hotels are the right way to go any more than damaging property, pulling down statues or stopping ordinary people going about they’re business is they are not all right wingers , they’re are numerous valid concerns 

Edited February 23, 2023 by Archied

[1of4]

48 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

As always - I much prefer it when people don't disguise their right-wing views with claims of being oh-so moderate centrists

Respect

Unfortunately many people who have been radicalized by the right-wing media, still believe they are moderate centralists.

[GboroRam]

I recall one interview with a deradicalisation expert who had interviewed her. 

He spoke at the optimism there was that she could be deradicalised, she was a very good candidate for the program and felt her language and outlook was very much the kind of fit for someone who would respond well to the program. 

Put in context she still was part of a violent, extremist organisation who exert a lot of influence over her and similar positioned people, yet she was prepared to hint that she wanted a way out. She obviously was very cautious about speaking her mind, because she knew those same people were listening to her words. 

So when people are very critical about her current threat level, the experts seemed to be of a different opinion entirely. 

[i-Ram]

7 minutes ago, 1of4 said:

Unfortunately many people who have been radicalized by the right-wing media, still believe they are moderate centralists.

You keep to reading the Morning Star, Comrade. I dont want you drifting to the moderate middle ground.

[Stive Pesley]

1 hour ago, Archied said:

Tut tut tut ,,, can we not stop this right wing / woke name calling stuff, there are many valid reasons why people object to the issue of people entering the country illegally with no checks on who they are and what they’re motives are 

It wasn't meant as a slur (unlike woke - which is always used as a slur it seems) - In this case I was using it in the recognised political form. Nationalism and opposition to immigration is an element of Right Wing politics. That's an inarguable fact. I wasn't even saying it was a bad thing. I was literally saying I respected the poster for being honest that he had strong nationalist tendencies

 

[Comrade 86]

2 hours ago, Anon said:

Begum (and her army of simps for that matter) are irredeemable scum in my opinion, but by the letter of the law she absolutely should be repatriated.

If only our government and civil servants could work as hard at keeping illegal migrants out of the country as they have on this one single citizen.

Raging again.

Probably time for your nap. 

 

[Anon]

35 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

It wasn't meant as a slur (unlike woke - which is always used as a slur it seems) - In this case I was using it in the recognised political form. Nationalism and opposition to immigration is an element of Right Wing politics. That's an inarguable fact. I wasn't even saying it was a bad thing. I was literally saying I respected the poster for being honest that he had strong nationalist tendencies

 

*Opposition to illegal immigration.

[i-Ram]

46 minutes ago, 86 Hair Islands said:

Raging again.

Probably time for your nap. 

Back to gently poke the fire?

 

[Anon]

Illegal immigration is what was written. Never mind, I'm certain the word "illegal" mysteriously vanishing from Stive's reply was an honest mistake.

Edited February 23, 2023 by Anon