Kirchner- A risk or a potential reward

[Mostyn6]

This whole thing still confuses me. Surely CK at knew that at some point he needed to hand over a significant amount of cash to be owner of Derby County and also have money to fund it for a while, to protect the initial outlay. He must have a severe mental-health issue, bordering on immense delusion, or he probably tried to make some quick profit with the investors money, probably in Crypto, and lost it all without actually realising.

I struggle to believe he went through all this with the intention of pulling out last minute and ruining his name and reputation.

I find it intriguing. There's much more to it than he's a chancing con-man!

[RAM1966]

5 minutes ago, Mostyn6 said:

This whole thing still confuses me. Surely CK at knew that at some point he needed to hand over a significant amount of cash to be owner of Derby County and also have money to fund it for a while, to protect the initial outlay. He must have a severe mental-health issue, bordering on immense delusion, or he probably tried to make some quick profit with the investors money, probably in Crypto, and lost it all without actually realising.

I struggle to believe he went through all this with the intention of pulling out last minute and ruining his name and reputation.

I find it intriguing. There's much more to it than he's a chancing con-man!

Mental health issues could be his get out of Jail free card.........

[RoyMac5]

23 minutes ago, Mostyn6 said:

...I struggle to believe he went through all this with the intention of pulling out last minute and ruining his name and reputation.

I find it intriguing. There's much more to it than he's a chancing con-man!

He's a chancing con-man playing with other peoples money. That's all.

[europia]

39 minutes ago, Mostyn6 said:

 

I find it intriguing. There's much more to it than he's a chancing con-man!

Yep, I imagine CK's psychotherapist is rubbing his hands together..... but also wondering if he will ever get paid. 

[ram59]

I wonder whether he was planning using the 2 year plan and to try and pay off 35%. This would have stalled a possible 15 point penalty for 2 years, during which time he would have hoped to get back into the championship and then hoping to survive a 15 point penalty if the club hadn't been able to generate enough money to pay off the 35%. This way he could have spent a relatively small amount of actual money to purchase the club off the admin, much like the Glazers have done with Man U. It was very telling that he didn't entertain the idea of purchasing the ground for what was a very good price for new owners.

[kevinhectoring]

6 hours ago, Brailsford Ram said:

tried to buy Preston North End and Derby County while ripping off Paul Stretford

hmmm don't you think Stretford was driving the bus ?  I reckon q only came back to CK as a result of pressure from Rooney and Stretford     But for the two of them, the indication was that Appleby would have bought us 

[Bris Vegas]

2 hours ago, Mostyn6 said:

This whole thing still confuses me. Surely CK at knew that at some point he needed to hand over a significant amount of cash to be owner of Derby County and also have money to fund it for a while, to protect the initial outlay. He must have a severe mental-health issue, bordering on immense delusion, or he probably tried to make some quick profit with the investors money, probably in Crypto, and lost it all without actually realising.

I struggle to believe he went through all this with the intention of pulling out last minute and ruining his name and reputation.

I find it intriguing. There's much more to it than he's a chancing con-man!

I get the impression he was attempting to use Derby to create a quick buck off borrowed money.

By using the Goldman Sachs funding in slync.io he probably thought he could transfer it over to Derby, progress and sell at a profit.

I said it was a kind of money laundering. Not that the money was dirty and he was trying to make it clean. But that he obviously conned investors into handing over funds and he wanted to make money off that while enjoying the publicity of being a sports club owner.

[kevinhectoring]

2 hours ago, Mostyn6 said:

This whole thing still confuses me. Surely CK at knew that at some point he needed to hand over a significant amount of cash to be owner of Derby County

what makes you think the cash that was intended to be handed over was not (as reported) trapped by a bank's compliance team?

[RadioactiveWaste]

11 minutes ago, kevinhectoring said:

hmmm don't you think Stretford was driving the bus ?  I reckon q only came back to CK as a result of pressure from Rooney and Stretford     But for the two of them, the indication was that Appleby would have bought us 

I was hopefull for the Appleby bid. Probably just associateion with the club being actually well run in the GSE days (and as we've rather painfully learned, the club being run well and the team being successful are not neccessarily the same thing) but as time wore on, it did seem his backing was flighty and not as substancial as it might have looked at first.

Mike Ashley could've bought us at any time, and, i do not doubt he had the ability to run the club. But he didn't buy us because getting his rocks off on creditor tears is his thing.

CK was me just being despirate to believe it was going to be OK. Yes, I feel so so hurt and stupid for not seeing it.

But mostly, mostly, i really have very little time for Mel Morris after all this. I probably would not urinate on the fellow were he to be in a state of combustion in front of me.

[Ram-Alf]

8 hours ago, ram59 said:

I wonder whether he was planning using the 2 year plan and to try and pay off 35%. This would have stalled a possible 15 point penalty for 2 years, during which time he would have hoped to get back into the championship and then hoping to survive a 15 point penalty if the club hadn't been able to generate enough money to pay off the 35%. This way he could have spent a relatively small amount of actual money to purchase the club off the admin, much like the Glazers have done with Man U. It was very telling that he didn't entertain the idea of purchasing the ground for what was a very good price for new owners.

We're all guessing of CKs intentions, His non payment of staff, His pi$$ing of millions of $s of Goldman Sachs money on sponsoring sports events, His buying a plane for !5m $ or £, His purchase of a $350 super car, He making himself the sole signature for cheques, His non payment our DCFC coat and no doubt other sundries.

He would have used us as a tool to borrow more money against DCFC, Take us to the edge of a cliff face financially and rode into the sunset. 

[BucksRam]

3 hours ago, Unlucky Alf said:

We're all guessing of CKs intentions, His non payment of staff, His pi$$ing of millions of $s of Goldman Sachs money on sponsoring sports events, His buying a plane for !5m $ or £, His purchase of a $350 super car, He making himself the sole signature for cheques, His non payment our DCFC coat and no doubt other sundries.

He would have used us as a tool to borrow more money against DCFC, Take us to the edge of a cliff face financially and rode into the sunset. 

To be fair the non payment of our coat is tantamount to theft.  That alone should see him face the stiffest of penalties.  Outrageous. 

[Elwood P Dowd]

I wonder what his wife thought, did she know where the money was coming from or did he spin her a Crypto story.

 

[kevinhectoring]

11 hours ago, RadioactiveWaste said:

I was hopefull for the Appleby bid. Probably just associateion with the club being actually well run in the GSE days (and as we've rather painfully learned, the club being run well and the team being successful are not neccessarily the same thing) but as time wore on, it did seem his backing was flighty and not as substancial as it might have looked at first.

We might not have seen the back of GSE. DC will be looking to sell before we return to the Championship (sell the club that is, maybe not the stadium) and Appleby will still be looking to put a deal together to help pay the air conditioning bill on that sprawling mass of real estate he owns in the mid west. DC has seen the chaos and publicity that a competitive process can generate - so maybe we’ll just wake up one day to be told we’ve got a new owner ... 

[duncanjwitham]

3 hours ago, Unlucky Alf said:

He would have used us as a tool to borrow more money against DCFC, Take us to the edge of a cliff face financially and rode into the sunset. 

I still think it was unlikely it was anything like this.  He couldn't borrow (much) money against us because without owning the stadium, there was nothing to secure it against.  Money laundering or similar seems unlikely too, because you don't do it with an international border in between (because of the enhanced checks that take place on transfers), or a company that's being monitored more extensively than normal (you've got FFP reporting, plus enforced business plans and any other fallout/follow-up from exiting admin).  Any weird payments in or out are going to get flagged up relatively quickly.  And if his intention was something like trying to and drain excess funds out of the club to fund his lifestyle, then I'm not sure there's going to be enough excess funds to make that worthwhile, especially if he was intending to carry on making payments to creditors over the next 2 or 3 years.

The only explanation that makes any kind of sense to me is that he genuinely wanted to buy us, probably because he thought owning a football club would be a cool thing to add to his flash lifestyle.  And then he either changed his mind when he realised the true costs, or he genuinely couldn't transfer the money (whether that be because of money laundering checks, or the money was no longer "available" to him, or whatever).

[angieram]

21 minutes ago, kevinhectoring said:

We might not have seen the back of GSE. DC will be looking to sell before we return to the Championship (sell the club that is, maybe not the stadium) and Appleby will still be looking to put a deal together to help pay the air conditioning bill on that sprawling mass of real estate he owns in the mid west. DC has seen the chaos and publicity that a competitive process can generate - so maybe we’ll just wake up one day to be told we’ve got a new owner ... 

You've said this before, Kevin - why do you think he'll be looking to sell quickly?

[RadioactiveWaste]

17 minutes ago, angieram said:

You've said this before, Kevin - why do you think he'll be looking to sell quickly?

I can see Clowes not wanting the responsibility and cost of the club long term (e.g. 10+ years or whatever) but I don't get any "I've done my bit and saved the club, but, please can someone take this on" vibe either.

He certainly won't get any return on investment but we all know that's not why he stepped in.

Should Appleby (or someone) make him an offer that means he gets back most of his money I think he'd listen but is he actively wanting out ASAP? I don't buy it.

Time will tell but my instinct is still a few years of austerity football being run prudently with us maybe getting back to the championship.

[RadioactiveWaste]

48 minutes ago, kevinhectoring said:

We might not have seen the back of GSE. DC will be looking to sell before we return to the Championship (sell the club that is, maybe not the stadium) and Appleby will still be looking to put a deal together to help pay the air conditioning bill on that sprawling mass of real estate he owns in the mid west. DC has seen the chaos and publicity that a competitive process can generate - so maybe we’ll just wake up one day to be told we’ve got a new owner ... 

Surely wouldn't be GSE this time even if it was some of the same investors in the mix it'd be a new "investment vehicle"?

I do think Appleby would be open to putting a deal together with Clowes and probably a bit easier to get backing when it's a solvent club with the ground and it's a deal with the owner not an administration. It's just a case of the will to do it on both sides.

[RoyMac5]

53 minutes ago, kevinhectoring said:

We might not have seen the back of GSE. DC will be looking to sell before we return to the Championship (sell the club that is, maybe not the stadium) and Appleby will still be looking to put a deal together to help pay the air conditioning bill on that sprawling mass of real estate he owns in the mid west. DC has seen the chaos and publicity that a competitive process can generate - so maybe we’ll just wake up one day to be told we’ve got a new owner ... 

Practically, how would he currently even get his money back for us?

[Ram-Alf]

56 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said:

I still think it was unlikely it was anything like this.  He couldn't borrow (much) money against us because without owning the stadium, there was nothing to secure it against.  Money laundering or similar seems unlikely too, because you don't do it with an international border in between (because of the enhanced checks that take place on transfers), or a company that's being monitored more extensively than normal (you've got FFP reporting, plus enforced business plans and any other fallout/follow-up from exiting admin).  Any weird payments in or out are going to get flagged up relatively quickly.  And if his intention was something like trying to and drain excess funds out of the club to fund his lifestyle, then I'm not sure there's going to be enough excess funds to make that worthwhile, especially if he was intending to carry on making payments to creditors over the next 2 or 3 years.

The only explanation that makes any kind of sense to me is that he genuinely wanted to buy us, probably because he thought owning a football club would be a cool thing to add to his flash lifestyle.  And then he either changed his mind when he realised the true costs, or he genuinely couldn't transfer the money (whether that be because of money laundering checks, or the money was no longer "available" to him, or whatever).

All makes sense...just one caveat, HMRCs bill of circa £28m where did this go, Did it go to fund us through Covid, If so then CK could have a cunning plan ?

[duncanjwitham]

25 minutes ago, Unlucky Alf said:

All makes sense...just one caveat, HMRCs bill of circa £28m where did this go, Did it go to fund us through Covid, If so then CK could have a cunning plan ?

Not entirely sure what you're getting at?  We basically stopped paying HMRC because we didn't have the cash to. What cash we did have went to paying wages, and other running costs etc, during lockdown.

Are you suggesting CK was going to do the same, and basically pocket the money instead of paying HMRC? There's basically zero chance of that happening.  The only reason it was allowed to happen previously was that HMRC basically weren't chasing up unpaid bills while companies where struggling due to COVID.  Now that (in theory) we're back to normal, they'll be chasing as soon as any money is overdue (which I *think* is quarterly).  And that's especially the case for a company like us, that's just agreed to write off some proportion of what we owed.  They'll be watching us like a hawk.