Ramrob Posted June 30, 2022 Share Posted June 30, 2022 Just now, LazloW said: Jim White on TalkSport being very bullish about it definitely going through today. Make of that what you will. Jim White is very bullish about everything! LazloW, Mostyn6 and angieram 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curb Posted June 30, 2022 Share Posted June 30, 2022 17 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said: Just because a club doesn't run at a profit doesn't automatically result in additional debt. An owner can inject equity into the company, resulting in £0 of debt. Owners should be able to invest as much as they want to in a club, but if there was some way of banning them from racking up debt, but investing it as equity, then that would solve a lot of football’s problems in a stroke. No debt allowed, owners would only invest what they can afford to lose. jono and GB SPORTS 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roboto Posted June 30, 2022 Share Posted June 30, 2022 He's checking contracts He's checking it twice He's gonna by DCFC At the right price Daaaaaaaavid Clowes is comin' to town Daaaaaaaavid Clowes is comin' to town David Clowes is comin' to town Ramslad1992, Rammy03, Ram1988 and 9 others 3 3 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rammy03 Posted June 30, 2022 Share Posted June 30, 2022 It'll definitely be today I can feel it. Quantuma wouldn't have put that statement out otherwise. Dean (hick) Saunders, Premier ram, GB SPORTS and 2 others 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elwood P Dowd Posted June 30, 2022 Share Posted June 30, 2022 (edited) 4 minutes ago, curb said: Owners should be able to invest as much as they want to in a club, but if there was some way of banning them from racking up debt, but investing it as equity, then that would solve a lot of football’s problems in a stroke. No debt allowed, owners would only invest what they can afford to lose. "What they can afford to lose" is difficult to establish remember at one point we all under the illusion that CK had £20+ million to buy our club. Edited June 30, 2022 by Elwood P Dowd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Buxton's Bat Posted June 30, 2022 Share Posted June 30, 2022 14 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said: The issue is what you mean by 'value'. Pride Park was basically valued on what it would cost us to replace it (less wear and tear etc), which is absolutely a standard way of valuing things like stadiums. And when you look at Brentford paying £70m for a much smaller stadium, and Brighton paying £93m for theirs a decade ago, ~£80m is not remotely a crazy valuation. Obviously in other contexts 'value' might mean completely different things to different people. Apologies if I'm on my grassy knoll here.......but wasn't the 'value' of PP simply financial gymnastics to keep us on the right side of FFP rather than an actual valuation? So for example, if my ltd business was £ x million in debt and in danger of falling foul of some arbitrary rule put in place by my industry body, I could buy a pencil from my business for £ x million pounds using my personal money to wipe out the business debt. The value of something is what someone is daft enough to pay for it. DC appears less daft than MM. i-Ram 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LazloW Posted June 30, 2022 Share Posted June 30, 2022 1 minute ago, Ian Buxton's Bat said: Apologies if I'm on my grassy knoll here.......but wasn't the 'value' of PP simply financial gymnastics to keep us on the right side of FFP rather than an actual valuation? So for example, if my ltd business was £ x million in debt and in danger of falling foul of some arbitrary rule put in place by my industry body, I could buy a pencil from my business for £ x million pounds using my personal money to wipe out the business debt. The value of something is what someone is daft enough to pay for it. DC appears less daft than MM. I don’t think it quite worked like that because Mel had to ‘prove’ that it was a fair valuation (although I’m sure there were some financial shenanigans going on to inflate the value as much as possible to make sure it was high enough to sort out our problems). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RadioactiveWaste Posted June 30, 2022 Share Posted June 30, 2022 22 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said: The issue is what you mean by 'value'. Pride Park was basically valued on what it would cost us to replace it (less wear and tear etc), which is absolutely a standard way of valuing things like stadiums. And when you look at Brentford paying £70m for a much smaller stadium, and Brighton paying £93m for theirs a decade ago, ~£80m is not remotely a crazy valuation. Obviously in other contexts 'value' might mean completely different things to different people. Yeah, but it wasn't just that though was it? There was all putting a roof on it, having it as a venue to host concerts and events during the football season and planning for redevelopment of the east stand to include restaurants and shops and so on... And the previous much lower valuation was only what 5/6 years out of date? Like I said, I believe there was some cleverness went into it, but clever enough to hold water. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBX1985 Posted June 30, 2022 Share Posted June 30, 2022 2 minutes ago, Ian Buxton's Bat said: Apologies if I'm on my grassy knoll here.......but wasn't the 'value' of PP simply financial gymnastics to keep us on the right side of FFP rather than an actual valuation? So for example, if my ltd business was £ x million in debt and in danger of falling foul of some arbitrary rule put in place by my industry body, I could buy a pencil from my business for £ x million pounds using my personal money to wipe out the business debt. The value of something is what someone is daft enough to pay for it. DC appears less daft than MM. The issue is MM never actually paid for it. If he had, this would not have happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
w8sey Posted June 30, 2022 Share Posted June 30, 2022 6 minutes ago, roboto said: He's checking contracts He's checking it twice He's gonna by DCFC At the right price Daaaaaaaavid Clowes is comin' to town Daaaaaaaavid Clowes is comin' to town David Clowes is comin' to town Better than Mariah Carey that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mucker1884 Posted June 30, 2022 Share Posted June 30, 2022 2 minutes ago, LazloW said: I don’t think it quite worked like that because Mel had to ‘prove’ that it was a fair valuation (although I’m sure there were some financial shenanigans going on to inflate the value as much as possible to make sure it was high enough to sort out our problems). shame it wasn't "high enough to sort out our problems"! ? RadioactiveWaste 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramit Posted June 30, 2022 Share Posted June 30, 2022 8 hours ago, roboto said: He's checking contracts He's checking it twice He's gonna by DCFC At the right price Daaaaaaaavid Clowes is comin' to town Daaaaaaaavid Clowes is comin' to town David Clowes is comin' to town So, just another five months then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Clough Posted June 30, 2022 Share Posted June 30, 2022 1 minute ago, Ian Buxton's Bat said: Apologies if I'm on my grassy knoll here.......but wasn't the 'value' of PP simply financial gymnastics to keep us on the right side of FFP rather than an actual valuation? So for example, if my ltd business was £ x million in debt and in danger of falling foul of some arbitrary rule put in place by my industry body, I could buy a pencil from my business for £ x million pounds using my personal money to wipe out the business debt. The value of something is what someone is daft enough to pay for it. DC appears less daft than MM. A highly regarded professional property valuation company with experience of valuing the stadium, arrived at two different valuations based on two different methods, both in the region of £80m. The IDC reviewed the valuation method an concluded that the valuation from JLL was actually towards the lower end of their valuation range. jono, Carnero and GB SPORTS 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanjwitham Posted June 30, 2022 Share Posted June 30, 2022 1 minute ago, Ian Buxton's Bat said: Apologies if I'm on my grassy knoll here.......but wasn't the 'value' of PP simply financial gymnastics to keep us on the right side of FFP rather than an actual valuation? So for example, if my ltd business was £ x million in debt and in danger of falling foul of some arbitrary rule put in place by my industry body, I could buy a pencil from my business for £ x million pounds using my personal money to wipe out the business debt. The value of something is what someone is daft enough to pay for it. DC appears less daft than MM. It absolutely wasn't just financial gymnastics - it was a proper valuation done by a professional firm of property valuers. If you want to see the maths of how the value was worked out, it's in the written reasons from the EFL Stadium hearing. Like I said, 'value' can mean different things to different people. In the context of a professional football club, the value of a stadium is in it's ability to host matches for the club. So for things like insurance purposes, you need your stadium valued at what it would cost you to have a stadium to play in. If Pride Park is valued at £20m, an insurance company is going to want to insure it for that. But if it was to burn down or whatever, £20m is no use when it's costing north of £70m nowadays to build a decent stadium. But in the context of lending money to a financially struggling company, the 'value' of a stadium is what could be salvaged from it if the club was unable to repay the loan. That's why MSD demanded additional guarantees to loan us ~£20m. If we were to have gone bust, they didn't feel they could retrieve the full £20m from the stadium without a club to play there. Ian Buxton's Bat, Carnero, Ramrob and 2 others 2 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gritstone Ram Posted June 30, 2022 Share Posted June 30, 2022 19 minutes ago, angieram said: We'll rejoice when there's something to rejoice about. I'm waiting for an official announcement from someone I trust more than Q. Who Bo Jo? angieram 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAMesses III Posted June 30, 2022 Share Posted June 30, 2022 8 minutes ago, roboto said: He's checking contracts He's checking it twice He's gonna by DCFC At the right price Daaaaaaaavid Clowes is comin' to town Daaaaaaaavid Clowes is comin' to town David Clowes is comin' to town Better than the lyrics of "I saw Quantuma kissing David Clowes" roboto, Animal is a Ram, Mucker1884 and 2 others 1 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curb Posted June 30, 2022 Share Posted June 30, 2022 7 minutes ago, Elwood P Dowd said: "What they can afford to lose" is difficult to establish remember at one point we all under the illusion that CK had £20+ million to buy our club. It would be self regulating, if debts had to be covered by personal guarantees, then an owner would be personally liable, and they wouldn’t be able to walk away and leave the club with the debts. I’m not sure how it could be enforced, but it would stop this from happening again and again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ram-Alf Posted June 30, 2022 Share Posted June 30, 2022 15 minutes ago, Rammy03 said: It'll definitely be today I can feel it. Quantuma wouldn't have put that statement out otherwise. Give this man a prise...anything from the top shelf...but not the good stuff? Miggins 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PistoldPete Posted June 30, 2022 Share Posted June 30, 2022 9 minutes ago, Ian Buxton's Bat said: Apologies if I'm on my grassy knoll here.......but wasn't the 'value' of PP simply financial gymnastics to keep us on the right side of FFP rather than an actual valuation? So for example, if my ltd business was £ x million in debt and in danger of falling foul of some arbitrary rule put in place by my industry body, I could buy a pencil from my business for £ x million pounds using my personal money to wipe out the business debt. The value of something is what someone is daft enough to pay for it. DC appears less daft than MM. The value was what would it cost to rebuild it, less depreciation, as GoC says. No financial gymnastics involved. DC has got a bargain on the stadium, not so much for the club, but the one deal is subsidising the other. I never understood why CK wanted the club but not the stadium, but then little about the CK deal made sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Animal is a Ram Posted June 30, 2022 Share Posted June 30, 2022 Re: the stadium, bear in mind that Clowes hasn't paid for the stadium, he's paid for the company that owns the stadium. An important distinction when you'll have fans bleating on about 'but how is it worth £80m when he only paid £23m?' FlyBritishMidland, GB SPORTS, Rammysees and 2 others 2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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