Rams vs Luton Matchday Thread

[May Contain Nuts]

22 minutes ago, Unlucky Alf said:

Hindsight is a wonderfull thing?

Seeing a pattern of events unfold and then repeat over time isn't really using hindsight though.

The circumstances he's working under are a long way from ideal, but it doesn't mean certain aspects of his performance can't be assessed.

Nobody is expecting Rooney to be the complete manager 11 months into the job, and commenting on an area where he can improve is a critique, not a criticism.

Edited October 20, 2021 by Coconut's Beard

[MuespachRam]

1 hour ago, Tombo said:

Nope. That was poor but it was a deflected shot that ended up dipping into a crowded box that he misjudged the height of, and he didn't see McGinn sneak in front of him because he ghosted in through the crowd of Derby players who were blocking his vision. It was really bad and on the highest stage arguably a worse error because of what it cost us.

But Allsop last night....that should be a routine catch but he's not positioned to catch it. I don't know whether he made the call to the defenders that he had it but he'd have been better letting the outfield players challenge for it. Nonetheless, he somehow makes it out to the ball in time to be there for the catch and it is a simple one. Not much on the ball, no spin, no curve, quite a flat simple ball in. But he hesitates and does nothing. It's a shocker.

Let’s be right here, however much you want Roos back in the team that’s one thing but to say the goal at Wembley was down to anything else but a complete calamity by the goalkeeper is just ridiculous. 
Over a season It won’t matter who we have in goals, Roos, Marshall, Allsopp they are all average championship keepers and will all make average championship keeper mistakes, It happens, It will continue to happen that’s why they are in the championship.  
I’m sure on the Luton forum they are wanting their defender out who gifted Lawrence the first goal or their goalie out who let Knight beat him at the near post, It happens. 

[DavesaRam]

Of all the disallowed penalties in all the world, that one last night had to be the most blatant. Unless I saw it wrong. Morrison had bern played in, had moved into the area and was just about to shoot when his legs were ripped from under him. As ever, nothing given. As Morrison was about to shoot one would think that it was a clear, goal-scoring opportunity, with appropriate colour of card brandished. We had another half shout a few moments later as one of ours (I don’t know who) was tripped, and again nothing given. Ans as the ball broke free from that Buchanan was rammed to the floor with a two-handed push in the back, right in front of the blind one, but again nothing given. To think that we could have bern 3 - 0 up against 10 men!

Luton actually looked a half-decent side, but like Derby seemed to be lacking with the final pass, until they realised that they could fall down like a wilting rose (or pansy?) and they would get the free kick.

And so the the performance - apart from Allsopp’s howler it seems that gone are the days when we try and pick the worst performer. Perhaps my only observation is Tom Lawrence wanting to shoot from outside the box instead of playing someone in who is in a better position. He did it twice on Saturday and twice last night. But he is shooting, whereas only a short time ago nobody wanted to shoot at all, so no complaints from me.

Another frustrating result, but given the awkward circumstances it is a privilege to watch the team play so well when reallt we shouldn’t gave a chance.

As ever, COME ON YOU RAMS!

[Kernow]

So frustrating. Obviously we won’t win them all, and you could point at any game and say “if only this happened…”

But it’s completely feasible that we could have turned our last three results from draws to wins, it would hardly have been undeserved.

In 3 games that nearly wipes out the potential additional 9 point deduction we face. The margins are so fine, but right now we’re falling short of them.

[ram59]

14 minutes ago, Kernow said:

So frustrating. Obviously we won’t win them all, and you could point at any game and say “if only this happened…”

But it’s completely feasible that we could have turned our last three results from draws to wins, it would hardly have been undeserved.

In 3 games that nearly wipes out the potential additional 9 point deduction we face. The margins are so fine, but right now we’re falling short of them.

We've lost 9 points from winning positions and gained zero from losing positions, resulting in minus 9 points. Those 9 points would have lifted us out of the drop zone, even with the 12 points penalty. Ignoring the 12 point penalty it would be enough for us to be in the play off positions and if my auntie had.................

[cosmic]

2 hours ago, archram said:

Agree that footbridge is impressive. By the way @cosmici didn’t laugh much when I was the one who tripped up the step and broke my wrist!!

 

2 hours ago, Foreveram said:

I also tripped up THAT step and ended up with a slipped disc 

 

Well, now I feel bad! Sorry both ?

I suppose supporting Derby really can hurt sometimes!

 

Edit: Just read your post about going to the match, @archram. Glad to hear you've recovered and you also enjoyed your long awaited return to PP, as well.

Edited October 20, 2021 by cosmic

[Jourdan]

4 hours ago, VulcanRam said:

I'm not really sure what you'd expect any manager to do about this though. Surely the only answer is better players? 

You can't blame Rooney for Morrison hanging onto the ball where there's a break on, for Shinnie backheading a ball into the path of onrushing Luton players, of Allsopp dropping a clanger. They are individual errors at moments in games. Nothing any coach can do about it. How can a coach legislate for some poor refereeing decisions?  

What Rooney can do is motivate, organise, set them up tactically. The rest, once the game starts, is on the players. We're so much better than last year with a team that is punching hard and perhaps above its weight. I don't think any manager could get more out of them at the moment than Rooney is doing. 

Genuine question, looking at last night's game, what bit of ingenuity are you referring to would have won us the game?  

I don't think the answer is necessarily better players, but better coaching and tactics that would turn a few draws into wins and show evolution from previous games. When you look at the first quarter of the season and you can pinpoint a large majority of games where we didn't get what we deserve, that tells you it's a coaching problem. A good coach would be looking for and finding solutions.

No-one is saying that we should be showing the consistency of WBA, Fulham and Bournemouth. But look at the league table. Coventry, Luton, Huddersfield and Millwall all occupy places in the top 10 of this division. Do they have significantly better players than us? Why are they making fewer errors? Why are they winning more football matches?

Of course, individual errors can happen and of course, we are working hard, showing fighting spirit, and seeing improvement from last year. However last year was abysmal and the bar couldn't have been set any lower. The only way was only ever going to be up. But to say a coach cannot do anything about what happens on the pitch is practically absolving the likes of Rooney and Rosenior of any and all responsibility. What I would say is that Rooney is getting parts right - the players look motivated, the players (on the whole) look organised, but rarely do we seem to learn from or have worked on mistakes, and rarely do we seem to have tactical nous to change a game in our favour.

To say you don't think any manager could get more out of them seems unfounded and wildly assumptive to me. We've picked up 16 points from 39 (roughly 40% of all available points). It's less than half. There is always room for improvement. History shows a manager can and does tend to come in and get more out of a group of players.

We were 2-1 up with 10 minutes to go. I am not even sure it would have taken ingenuity to close out the game, but the kind of tweaks that experienced managers know to make because they have been in this position time and time again.

[Gone]

In reflection thought the sub bringing on Williams was a bit puzzling. I thought we had them sewn up down our LHS (especially the poo Jack Grelish) For all the great stuff Rooney is doing he does seem to have an obsession with finishing a game with multiple full backs on the pitch.  

[VulcanRam]

4 hours ago, Coconut's Beard said:

What Rooney can also do is improve his tactical decisions when making subs, because despite all of the (excellent) hard work he's done in setting up and motivating the team his substitutions often have a habit of contributing to our undoing.

You could point out the limited options in the squad, but they are still options and mistakes were still made last season when we had more options; our only away win this season came at Hull when Stearman came on for the last 10 minutes and won everything in the air, could we not have taken a different tactical approach and got him on the pitch?

Yes it's all ifs, buts and maybes but perhaps Allsopp wouldn't have come for the punch if a fresh-legged Stearman had taken control of the situation? There are other variables of course, but was putting on an 18 year old LWB the best move? Another manager may have made a different call and we're sat here celebrating a victory.

To use another cliche though, it's swings and roundabouts - another manager may fail to beget the same team spirit and battling performances from this group so you'd be swapping some of that out for experience and tactical nous.

I suppose this is where having 'an experienced head' alongside him could have helped, rather than turning him around and getting the opinion of the even less experienced Rosenior on the best changes to make. Rooney has made it very clear that he's his own man and doesn't want that sort of arrangement.

I'm not sure it's fair to analyse by hindsight in this manner. The analysis - and criticism or praise - is surely on the tactical decision, which was to add in another defender at this stage. The actual 'who' is a bit immaterial because once the players are out there it's out of the manager's hands and anything can happen. You could argue Stearman was the better call to head balls away but, or you could argue their greatest threat was coming from wide and crosses in so Williams was the right call to help prevent the crosses coming in.

Are you criticising for putting a defender on or just which defender was put on, because if its the latter surely its an impossible argument (in the context of last night's game) but it's all conjecture based around one player's performance and one player's non-performance because he didn't get on so you're trying to build a case on what may or may not have happened . Ultimately whoever is on the pitch, if the keeper comes like that and misses, it's down to the keeper and no-one else, certainly not the manager. 

 

[Crewton]

20 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

We were 2-1 up with 10 minutes to go. I am not even sure it would have taken ingenuity to close out the game

All it would have taken was a Goalkeeper who didn't miss a hopeful cross into the penalty area. That ain't due to poor tactics, but it might conceivably be due to poor coaching.

[Dinnitdough]

I suppose Allsop was just overeager yesterday, coming off his line like that,
But this was the most frustrating points we’ve lost this season imo.

We were dominating, our goals were a thing of beauty and their goals were sh@it.

Roos in for the next one.

And put some high heels on Shinnie and Byrne, they need the inches.

 

[angieram]

6 minutes ago, Crewton said:

All it would have taken was a Goalkeeper who didn't miss a hopeful cross into the penalty area. That ain't due to poor tactics, but it might conceivably be due to poor coaching.

Or just crap weather? It was tipping it down at the time!

 

[Crewton]

Just now, angieram said:

Or just crap weather? It was tipping it down at the time!

 

Good point - I looked at the highlights but it appeared that Allsop simply timed his jump wrong.

[VulcanRam]

22 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

I don't think the answer is necessarily better players, but better coaching and tactics that would turn a few draws into wins and show evolution from previous games. When you look at the first quarter of the season and you can pinpoint a large majority of games where we didn't get what we deserve, that tells you it's a coaching problem. A good coach would be looking for and finding solutions.

No-one is saying that we should be showing the consistency of WBA, Fulham and Bournemouth. But look at the league table. Coventry, Luton, Huddersfield and Millwall all occupy places in the top 10 of this division. Do they have significantly better players than us? Why are they making fewer errors? Why are they winning more football matches?

Of course, individual errors can happen and of course, we are working hard, showing fighting spirit, and seeing improvement from last year. However last year was abysmal and the bar couldn't have been set any lower. The only way was only ever going to be up. But to say a coach cannot do anything about what happens on the pitch is practically absolving the likes of Rooney and Rosenior of any and all responsibility. What I would say is that Rooney is getting parts right - the players look motivated, the players (on the whole) look organised, but rarely do we seem to learn from or have worked on mistakes, and rarely do we seem to have tactical nous to change a game in our favour.

To say you don't think any manager could get more out of them seems unfounded and wildly assumptive to me. We've picked up 16 points from 39 (roughly 40% of all available points). It's less than half. There is always room for improvement. History shows a manager can and does tend to come in and get more out of a group of players.

We were 2-1 up with 10 minutes to go. I am not even sure it would have taken ingenuity to close out the game, but the kind of tweaks that experienced managers know to make because they have been in this position time and time again.

What are they? What tweaks/ingenuity are you referring to? Most managers would surely have done exactly what Rooney did - throw on another defender.

Luton - scored 22. Their two top scorers have more goals than all of Derby's team put together. Huddersfield, scored 18. Coventry, scored 18. Derby, scored 10. Does that not infer they have better goalscorers? And even with that, take away our points deduction and we'd be only 2 points behind Millwall, who you refer to and who aren't exactly prolific themselves and who have a very similar record to us. 

I'm not saying there's not room for improvement, of course there is, but don't tell me that the fact we are reliant on Baldock, Stretton and Kazim for goals isn't a principal reason we're not winning games. Their lad up front last is better than all three and would definitely improve our chances. There's only so much any coach can do with players of a certain ability. 

Never forget the great Alex Ferguson quote when asked what made him a great manager: "Great players", he replied. 

[angieram]

1 minute ago, Crewton said:

Good point - I looked at the highlights but it appeared that Allsop simply timed his jump wrong.

I haven't seen it back yet, but at the time people were slipping and sliding around. 

Personally I think it was a wrong decision, felt he should have let the defender deal with it and concentrate on saving the header - despite their height, their attempts on goal hadn't been particularly good. 

[kevinhectoring]

6 hours ago, VulcanRam said:

What Rooney can do is motivate, organise, set them up tactically. The rest, once the game starts, is on the players. 

He’s motivating them well and I think we’re set up fine. But the strange idea that the management team’s job is done when the first whistle blows is unfortunately one that our dug out seems to share. 

[Ram-Alf]

16 minutes ago, Crewton said:

Good point - I looked at the highlights but it appeared that Allsop simply timed his jump wrong.

I've looked at it, Allsop thinks he's got it, Player out jumps him, If your coming for the ball...then get it, Maybe better staying on his line and just catching when no opposition.

Highlights here.

https://www.skysports.com/football/Derby-county-vs-luton-town/report/447483

[kevinhectoring]

13 minutes ago, angieram said:

I haven't seen it back yet, but at the time people were slipping and sliding around. 

Personally I think it was a wrong decision, felt he should have let the defender deal with it and concentrate on saving the header - despite their height, their attempts on goal hadn't been particularly good. 

The decision to come for it was fine I reckon and it’s what the best keepers would do. Problem was he made the decision too late, then wasn’t strong enough. Would also have been ok to stay put, it was one of those.
Nor have I seen it back though    

[Anag Ram]

Just now, kevinhectoring said:

The decision to come for it was fine I reckon and it’s what the best keepers would do. Problem was he made the decision too late, then wasn’t strong enough. Would also have been ok to stay put, it was one of those.
Nor have I seen it back though    

Yeah no problem with him coming for the cross. Just he allowed a player to get between him and the ball. 

[DavesaRam]

16 minutes ago, angieram said:

I haven't seen it back yet, but at the time people were slipping and sliding around. 

Personally I think it was a wrong decision, felt he should have let the defender deal with it and concentrate on saving the header - despite their height, their attempts on goal hadn't been particularly good. 

You are right a out their attempts on gial not really threatening: their first goal from a back-header in error and was bundled in by muscle-bulk, and the second one was the howler. Apart from that there was one shot, (possibly two) and a cross that hit the bar - that is all they managed to muster up.

Luton have scored loads this season, so credit to our defenders. Again!