Derby finally accept 21 point deduction.

[PistoldPete]

9 hours ago, europia said:

Mr Morris decided that he was no longer willing to fund the clubs operational costs. That's it really. 

There were no longer funds available to the club . That is the effect of administration not the cause.

 

the key question is whether Morris did everything he reasonably could to prevent administration. The question of the COVID loan arranged by Efl will be at issue. Why not take advantage of that?

I suspect that is why Efl has suddenly changed its story… from two public statements from Efl saying  Derby were not eligible for the loan … to now saying we didn’t apply. Why would we apply if we weren’t eligible?

Edited October 11, 2021 by PistoldPete

[Brammie Steve]

I suppose the kudos of stumping up £170,000 for a Colin Todd beats paying millions for accountants all ends up!

[Tamworthram]

1 hour ago, PistoldPete said:

There were no longer funds available to the club . That is the effect of administration not the cause.

 

the key question is whether Morris did everything he reasonably could to prevent administration. The question of the COVID loan arranged by Efl will be at issue. Why not take advantage of that?

I suspect that is why Efl has suddenly changed its story… from two public statements from Efl saying  Derby were not eligible for the loan … to now saying we didn’t apply. Why would we apply if we weren’t eligible?

Not sure I agree with your opening statement.Surely If there had been sufficient funds available then the club wouldn’t have needed to go into administration. Therefore, it caused us to go into administration. Severe cash flow difficulties is a common cause of administration not an effect.

[jono]

23 hours ago, kevinhectoring said:

If we are appealing (I thought we were too late) maybe it’s to keep the EFL honest with the additional points deduction

So we’d drop the appeal and agree 15 points in total

settle for that

Yes .. come clean EFL or we will challenge = let’s have a compromise that settles it at one season only deductions so we can save this club and maybe make you, the EFL look like grown ups with little  bit of integrity. 

[jono]

30 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

Not sure I agree with your opening statement.Surely If there had been sufficient funds available then the club wouldn’t have needed to go into administration. Therefore, it caused us to go into administration. Severe cash flow difficulties is a common cause of administration not an effect.

Aye but what was the first domino ? .. £ 20 million in lost ticket sales 

[Tamworthram]

13 minutes ago, jono said:

Aye but what was the first domino ? .. £ 20 million in lost ticket sales 

Exactly. Lost ticket sales resulting in loss of income and causing the club to have to go into administration. 

[Reggie Greenwood]

11 hours ago, MACKWORTHRAM said:

All valid points.

But these clubs with parachute payments have much much bigger wage bills than ours, the club's coming up would have increased their wage bill and spent money in transfers. 

Yes we could have been affected more based on our attendances being sold high and how heavily reliant on ticket sales we are. But so is everyone.

Why aren't Forest in administration because of Covid? Same length of time in this League, no parachute payments, big attendances. No sign of them going into administration. 

Have you seen Forests accounts ? They are atrocious even taking into account the “legal” transfers between the 2 clubs with the same owner. He is apparently losing patience as he thought he would be in the Prem by now. Don’t think it will be long before they and a few others will be far behind DCFC in the financial do do. 

[JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta]

30 minutes ago, jono said:

Aye but what was the first domino ? .. £ 20 million in lost ticket sales 

I'd argue the first domino was the fact that the people running the club had pushed it to breaking point, meaning we had absolutely no ability to mitigate any change in circumstances outside of the clubs control, and I suspect that is exactly what whoever reviews our appeal will say shortly before dismissing it. 

[WoollyJumper]

21 hours ago, Topram said:

Won’t this appeal just put any potential take over further back? Closer to January? Closer to more redundancies? Closer a fire sale of our players? 

Who is to say the appeal may not be being funded by one of the potential buyers?

For Derby to stay in the Championship would be high on a list of priorities for any potential buyer.

[PistoldPete]

1 hour ago, Tamworthram said:

Not sure I agree with your opening statement.Surely If there had been sufficient funds available then the club wouldn’t have needed to go into administration. Therefore, it caused us to go into administration. Severe cash flow difficulties is a common cause of administration not an effect.

 But that’s the point .. it’s the definition of administration that you’ve run out of money. 

[BondJovi]

13 minutes ago, WoollyJumper said:

Who is to say the appeal may not be being funded by one of the potential buyers?

For Derby to stay in the Championship would be high on a list of priorities for any potential buyer.

It is a gamble...again. And gambling is part of why we are in this mess. Sure, we could get our deduction reduced, but if that result doesn't happen until after January, the fire sale will have happened.

I can't see anyone willing to take over the club until they know our points deduction. If we are allowing a potential buyer to fund this appeal and it fails, if they then back out...back to square one and more time and potentially jobs have been lost. 

[Donnyram]

12 hours ago, thelovebelow said:

Yeah, call us a cab will ya? 

You’re a cab

Hope you feel better now

[therealhantsram]

13 hours ago, uttoxram75 said:

I would presume the administrators are not emotionally involved in their task other than a successful outcome for their company. 

If they believe there is a case to be made with the points then it could potentially make us far more saleable.

 

This is the key point. The administrators are LEGALLY BOUND to get the best result for the creditors. If they determine they can get more money from a buyer when the points deduction is lower (stands to reason) - then they have no choice. They have to appeal. 

[jono]

41 minutes ago, JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta said:

I'd argue the first domino was the fact that the people running the club had pushed it to breaking point, meaning we had absolutely no ability to mitigate any change in circumstances outside of the clubs control, and I suspect that is exactly what whoever reviews our appeal will say shortly before dismissing it. 

I think you are right in principal .. it isn’t bright to walk a tightrope at the best of times. Then along comes a gale force 10.

There are shades of chicken and egg though. As in all these things it is a question of a series of events, each with the worst outcome. Toss a match at a petrol station at the same time as someone spills fuel and a gust of wind blows the vapours in the direction of the flame. 

[Tamworthram]

1 hour ago, PistoldPete said:

 But that’s the point .. it’s the definition of administration that you’ve run out of money. 

It may be the definition but it’s not an effect. You only go into administration because you have run out of money. Running out of money occurs first therefore it is a cause not an effect. 
 

Nobody goes into administration with sufficient funds available and then, oops, an effect of going into administration means we’ve got no money.

[Woodley Ram]

20 hours ago, basilrobbie said:

I do hope that Nixon is wrong about this, for a number of reasons :

1) I don't think you have a hope in hell of winning. Wigan tried this argument and got  short shrift. And there was a much stronger causal link between their problems and COVID than you can argue

2) if you are citing COVID as the primary argument, it's just not true, is it? The decisions that led to your current situation may have been compounded by COVID, but they weren't caused by it

3) this just plays into the "Gibson" argument (for want of a better phrase), that seeks to depict you as a club trying to wriggle off a hook instead of accepting you have been caught fair and square. Whether it is fair or not is a separate issue - it just LOOKS really bad. I can understand that goodwill is not your main worry though

As a Blackpool fan who has a vested interest in all this, I sympathise with those of you who just wants this resolved, along with Reading and anyone else who is in the dock for these sorts of offence. Lots of people outside your fan base feel the same way.

The EFL are supposed to be fighting for their lives at the moment, and trying to make themselves seem relevant in the context of the fan led review.  This dithering, with all the opacity that goes with it, is not fair on any of us. Hopefully, it will be fatal for them, because they long ago forfeited the right to run the competitions they are responsible for.

 

 

I'm not sure if I agree with you here.

Wigan's administration was at the start of Covid (July 2020), so the effects would have been no where near as damaging. On 4 June 2020, the owners sold the majority of Wigan Athletic shareholdings to Hong Kong-based Next Leader Fund, who didn't invest.  Their main issue was the new owners and not Covid. Wigan would have gone into administration even if Covid never happened.

You could argue that Derby were able to service their debts and operating overheads and had been doing so until Covid. This took £20m out of the coffers and Derby (unlike Wigan) had a whole season and a bit in closed stadiums before administration (September 2021).

I do agree that we would have been less likely to go under without the debt, that said our debt is lower than a lot of others clubs such as Reading. Our overheads are also small, wages are probably £15m per season unlike 2-3 years ago. Also our FFP/P&S is not as high as people think it is, Reading (sorry to mention them again) overspent by £10m's more than Derby.    

Gibson's argument is personal, if not why has he not sued half the clubs who were promoted and why didn't we sue QPR when they went up. Nothing will happen with Gibson and his legal challenges.

I don't see what Derby are doing as any different to what anyone else would do, certainly other clubs such as SWFC, BCFC have appealed and had points reduced and Reading are in the process of trying to negotiate a lower deduction. 

People need to have a look at the debt levels of all clubs as well as operating expenses as they seem to think Derby have the biggest debt, biggest FFP overspend and biggest wage bill. Non of that is accurate by a long way.   

[MuespachRam]

Firstly, it’s Nixon in the Sun, does anyone believe anything written by that pillock and published in that “news”paper?

but just for arguments sake say it’s true, what is the harm in going after the 6 points.? It’s 300 k, It is hardly going to make any difference to out bank balance is It..!?

[angieram]

 

[angieram]

1 minute ago, MuespachRam said:

Firstly, it’s Nixon in the Sun, does anyone believe anything written by that pillock and published in that “news”paper?

but just for arguments sake say it’s true, what is the harm in going after the 6 points.? It’s 300 k, It is hardly going to make any difference to out bank balance is It..!?

You were saying? 

[angieram]