Derby finally accept 21 point deduction.

[Ghost of Clough]

5 minutes ago, Woodley Ram said:

you have not mentioned players going out, Bennett, Whitaker, Bogle, Lowe all for fees. The incoming this year has been free's on minimal wages. the outgoings of Wisdom, Waghorn, Marriott (wages) would be higher.

The wage bill has been dropping for the last few years and did again this year. our outgoings on wages are now small. I think where we are different to some of the others is that we have some commercial debt which has to be paid back. Other clubs only have soft debt (the owner) that they do not.

I think that the question is. Would we have survived (including Mel pulling the plug) if Covid didn't happen. If the answer is yes then we get 12 points, if no then we have a chance. This will be strongly contested by the EFL who no doubt will say without Mel's money before covid we would have been in the ****, so the reason you have failed is Mel is not paying not Covid 

Out doesn't matter for anything other than cash flow and P&S.

Signing players for fees and adding to the wage bill has contributed towards going into administration. If we were so close to the edge (as we know we were due to admin) then we shouldn't have signed  them

[PistoldPete]

4 hours ago, JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta said:

I'd argue the first domino was the fact that the people running the club had pushed it to breaking point, meaning we had absolutely no ability to mitigate any change in circumstances outside of the clubs control, and I suspect that is exactly what whoever reviews our appeal will say shortly before dismissing it. 

You haven’t read the Wigan appeal… their overspending was not a cause of their administration , it was a contributory factor but not a cause. 

[MuespachRam]

It’s just hilarious that we are trying this I love It. 

[JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta]

One of the main reasons I can think of for the EFL rejecting this appeal outright will be because they do not want to set a precedent on this. If we get away with it then what is to stop any other club saddled with a heap of debt pulling the same trick? Go under, blame COVID, start fresh. Happy days.

I cannot see any circumstance in which this appeal goes our way. 

[ram59]

1 hour ago, atherstoneram said:

 

The players were not paid on time one month,MM's fault whether he was expecting the Fake Sheikh to pay them or not,until the deal is signed and ratified by the EFL it's still the owners responsibility,the EFL will have a far greater knowledge whether a deal was close or not.

 

According to MM, contracts were signed and exchanged and to all intents and purposes the club had new owners, except for the fact that the money wasn't transferred. I would imagine that MM would have a case for breach of contract and would have proceeded against a British based businessman. Remember, the EFL gave this fake sheik the all clear, but don't seem to shoulder any responsibility just like in the Bury situation.

When you buy a new house, your solicitor will advise that you insure it from the day you exchange contracts, as that is the day that you become responsible for it.

[Guest]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/58864123

could this be the beginning of big changes for the EFL 

[PistoldPete]

1 hour ago, Ghost of Clough said:

I can't see it being successful in all seriousness. Two of the main reasons being: us buying players during the period, us not selling players during the period.

Last summer we bought Jozwiak and Byrne for fees. Marshall, te Wierik, Ibe, Kazim all on frees plus Clarke on loan. This summer we signed Allsop, Jagielka, Stearman, Morrison and Baldock. 
We know about rejected multi-million pound bids for Buchanan and Lawrence just days before going into administration. If we were so close to the edge at that point, why didn't we sell?
 

Summer signings irrelevant as we need to have a competitive squad or risk relegation. Rejecting bids more problematic but would accepting those bids have made any difference  accepting £ 1 million for Buchanan would have delayed admin by what a month? So what? 

[May Contain Nuts]

30 minutes ago, JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta said:

One of the main reasons I can think of for the EFL rejecting this appeal outright will be because they do not want to set a precedent on this.

If we get away with it then what is to stop any other club saddled with a heap of debt pulling the same trick? Go under, blame COVID, start fresh. Happy days.

The timescale?

How do you set a precedent when you're talking about a once in a lifetime event? If we had our points deduction reduced (we won't) and someone subsequently put themselves into admin and tried to play the same card it would be pretty obvious that they'd intentionally tried to imitate our actions!

It wouldn't really wash because surely if it was going to be Covid that's put them into admin it'd have already happened by now, not in a few months once they've seen someone else get away with it!

Unless we go full lockdown and fans are banned for another season it's probably too late for anyone else to try this, especially now they've had their £8m EFL loan. That's probably why they're so keen to paint it as us not applying for it.

Edited October 11, 2021 by Coconut's Beard

[basilrobbie]

2 hours ago, Woodley Ram said:

I'm not sure if I agree with you here.

Wigan's administration was at the start of Covid (July 2020), so the effects would have been no where near as damaging. On 4 June 2020, the owners sold the majority of Wigan Athletic shareholdings to Hong Kong-based Next Leader Fund, who didn't invest.  Their main issue was the new owners and not Covid. Wigan would have gone into administration even if Covid never happened.

You could argue that Derby were able to service their debts and operating overheads and had been doing so until Covid. This took £20m out of the coffers and Derby (unlike Wigan) had a whole season and a bit in closed stadiums before administration (September 2021).

I do agree that we would have been less likely to go under without the debt, that said our debt is lower than a lot of others clubs such as Reading. Our overheads are also small, wages are probably £15m per season unlike 2-3 years ago. Also our FFP/P&S is not as high as people think it is, Reading (sorry to mention them again) overspent by £10m's more than Derby.    

Gibson's argument is personal, if not why has he not sued half the clubs who were promoted and why didn't we sue QPR when they went up. Nothing will happen with Gibson and his legal challenges.

I don't see what Derby are doing as any different to what anyone else would do, certainly other clubs such as SWFC, BCFC have appealed and had points reduced and Reading are in the process of trying to negotiate a lower deduction. 

People need to have a look at the debt levels of all clubs as well as operating expenses as they seem to think Derby have the biggest debt, biggest FFP overspend and biggest wage bill. Non of that is accurate by a long way.   

Good post Woodley.

I should have been clearer about my reference to Wigan ; I wasn't trying to claim they were analogous (they're not, in many ways), but I was saying that the COVID impact argument was one that they had tried and it had found no favour.

I quite agree that you can point to more sustained damage over a longer period that Wigan could - but so can everyone else, and that is part of my point. Your woes have been compounded by the recklessness of the previous owner and I see no prospect of the EFL wearing any argument that suggests that you shouldn't be held  to account for that (I know it is crap for the fans, but that is an entirely separate discussion). Not least because they will alienate all the other 71 if they try it - I don't think people want Derby to be placed in purgatory, but they DO expect you to face some consequences for doing a series of things that sought to give you an advantage that many felt was unfair.

Is this ideal? Of course not. Are you the only club with dirty hands? Absolutely not. But there is a perception out there that Mr. Morris' behaviour is particularly egregious and I think the EFL are well aware of that and will take account of it. I've no idea of what Gibson thinks he is doing, and he shouldn't be allowed to interfere. But there are lots of people who share his views about how Derby should be treated. 

The whole thing is a poo show, the fans bear the brunt of it and it demonstrates how broken our regulatory system really is. Tracey Crouch and her cavalry can't arrive soon enough for me. But I think your administrators are guilty of a major error of judgement here which will consume a lot of resources they can't afford, raise hopes that are likely to be dashed and are a huge distraction from the job they should be doing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[BramcoteRam84]

I think we have a case here. If we didn’t the administrators wouldn’t be trying it. It also to some degree explains the emphasis on Covid in Mel’s statements and interviews. 

The argument against is - no other club has gone into administration. Very true at the moment, but pretty much every other club at this level runs on a benefactor model. If the benefactor pulls out and there is no buyer then administration is inevitable. If Maranakis pulled out Forest would be in admin, likewise Gibson and Boro etc etc. Therefore this IMO can’t really be used as an argument. Who are we to know Mel’s situation, he could’ve had his other investments devastated by Covid. 

What they will be looking at is would we be unsustainable if Covid had not happened. We were taking steps to reduce the wage bill pre-covid, with our wage bill where it is now then there is a strong argument to suggest we would be sustainable had we not lost £20m in revenue. Wigan couldn’t use this argument, Covid had barely happened and their situation clearly would have arisen with or without Covid - their issue was the legitimacy of the people buying the club. If this had been Forest and not us, then they wouldn’t succeed either due to the transfer window they had last summer and maintaining a wage bill of £30m+. If we had been continuing to spend at 17/18 and 18/19 levels then we would undoubtedly fail this argument - we may yet as we don’t know what the accounts say. 

The other factor to consider is would we have sold the club without Covid. We would certainly be more attractive as we wouldn’t have the debt that has been accrued to keep the club going without £20m loss in revenue, the club had been sold as well prior to Covid only for the EFL charge to destroy that deal. Selling the club would have avoided administration and that is usually the get out benefactors use when they’ve had enough. There is a legitimate argument to say the uncertainty created by Covid restricted Mel’s ability to sell the club, and administration is an inevitable consequence.

The other thing that goes in our favour is we’re not asking for a complete reversal of the points deduction, we are saying Covid is a mitigating factor in our administration but not the sole cause. Mel’s running of the club is most definitely a contributory factor to us going into administration but not the sole factor, and the clubs argument will be that we would have coped and traded through if not for a Covid causing a 2/3 drop in revenue.

This isn’t vindication for Mel Morris by any stretch but the Covid impact is undeniable and as a result I think we have a case. Be interesting to see if we succeed. 

It will be also interesting to see how the EFLs actions on the £8m loan are viewed, Derby didn’t meet the criteria means a multitude of things, but one being any club under an EFL disciplinary procedure is ineligible, a disciplinary action against Derby on P&S which we have long debated the legitimacy and validity of. 

[JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta]

22 minutes ago, Coconut's Beard said:

The timescale?

How do you set a precedent when you're talking about a once in a lifetime event? If we had our points deduction reduced (we won't) and someone subsequently put themselves into admin and tried to play the same card it would be pretty obvious that they'd intentionally tried to imitate our actions!

It wouldn't really wash because surely if it was going to be Covid that's put them into admin it'd have already happened by now, not in a few months once they've seen someone else get away with it!

Unless we go full lockdown and fans are banned for another season it's probably too late for anyone else to try this, especially now they've had their £8m EFL loan. That's probably why they're so keen to paint it as us not applying for it.

My point is that other clubs who might be in a perilous situation right now might decide to try and wipe the slate clean right now, not if this happens again in future. If they see us 'get away with it' then a few other clubs might think "screw it, lets take advantage whilst we can"

[Carnero]

2 minutes ago, JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta said:

My point is that other clubs who might be in a perilous situation right now might decide to try and wipe the slate clean right now, not if this happens again in future. If they see us 'get away with it' then a few other clubs might think "screw it, lets take advantage whilst we can"

That would assume that these clubs all have owners that want out of the club.

Big assumption.

[Donnyram]

1 hour ago, jono said:

I think we have to stop trying to say this or that was the cause.

Tragedies happen when multiple things go wrong at the wrong time. 

You could argue the signing of Anya or the employing of Pearson, or the Bryson Hughes were the cause .. none of which would be true.

BUT ... when you have a series of bad outcomes from a series of choices and events events and one of those is Covid 

None of those events would have caused administration when taken as a unique happening. .. it was a series of events, all of which were contributory to the end result. 

 

 

The difference with the other events is that you can budget and plan.  Yes, we pushed the boundaries totally but they were boundaries set by the EFL with FFP losses allowed.  Nobody can be expected to have “planned” or “budgeted” for a global pandemic that resulted in zero gate receipts for over 12 months.  The argument against our appeal is that we shouldn’t have been over the losses allowed - which it seems we have been with the amortisation issue.

Personally I think it’s worth the appeal but by no means an easy win.  Hopefully the Administrators have been given some encouragement in discussions with the EFL.  

[Yani P]

16 minutes ago, BramcoteRam84 said:

he could’ve had his other investments devastated by Covid. 

A candy crash you mean?

[QuitYourJibbaJivin]

1 hour ago, MuespachRam said:

It’s just hilarious that we are trying this I love It. 

If we manage to win this appeal, the steam from the piss boiling will be visible from space!

Edited October 11, 2021 by QuitYourJibbaJivin

[LazloW]

The independent panel won’t really care (or at least they shouldn’t really care) whether or not other clubs will try to do the same thing. All they will care about is the rules.

If the rules don’t allow any wiggle room, then on what basis would the panel be able to find in our favour?  If the rules do allow for it, and we are successful, I imagine the fist thing the EFL will do is close the loophole so that nobody else can exploit it.

FWIW I can’t see us being successful, but if you don’t ask you don’t get. 

[BucksRam]

1 minute ago, QuitYourJibbaJivin said:

If we manage to win this appeal, the steam from the piss being boiled all over the country will be visible from space!

If we did win, pretty sure Twitter would blow up with the apoplexy from other fans. I can't wait!

[Donnyram]

1 hour ago, JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta said:

One of the main reasons I can think of for the EFL rejecting this appeal outright will be because they do not want to set a precedent on this. If we get away with it then what is to stop any other club saddled with a heap of debt pulling the same trick? Go under, blame COVID, start fresh. Happy days.

I cannot see any circumstance in which this appeal goes our way. 

My understanding is it will be assessed by an independent arbitration panel so won’t be something the EFL have to make a final judgement on.  Might be a convenient way for the EFL to say to the likes of Gibson and co “it wasn’t me guv” ?

[JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta]

Can the EFL appeal the outcome of the appeal? Seems to be the way they work. Appeal after appeal until they get the result they want (not that I think they'll need to in this instance).

[Gaspode]

15 minutes ago, LazloW said:

The independent panel won’t really care (or at least they shouldn’t really care) whether or not other clubs will try to do the same thing. All they will care about is the rules.

If the rules don’t allow any wiggle room, then on what basis would the panel be able to find in our favour?  If the rules do allow for it, and we are successful, I imagine the fist thing the EFL will do is close the loophole so that nobody else can exploit it.

FWIW I can’t see us being successful, but if you don’t ask you don’t get. 

The thing is that it's not really a loophole - the clause is there to make allowances for unprecedented things impacting a club's ability to operate - they don't come much more unprecedented than a global pandemic that has killed millions and caused football matches to be played witthout crowds for over 12 months.....