Barnsley FC v Derby - Match Day Thread

[IlsonDerby]

7 hours ago, DB83 said:

If we lose the fans who are “the most negative [they’ve] been” then I think we will have an even better chance of promotion next season.

This assumes that our comments on here are a reflection of our support at the match. 
 

I don’t think Warne as a manager will be successful long term for us. I think eventually given enough chances he’ll get us out this division because that’s par for our wage bill etc. beyond promotion though I just simply don’t see success moving forwards. We will be buried in the championship if we approach games like we do down here. 
 

That doesn’t stop me singing about Paul warnes barmy army at the game regardless of my personal view about his suitability. That doesn’t stop me thinking he’s probably a great bloke but preferring a great coach instead. 

[IlsonDerby]

3 hours ago, DB83 said:

No. I don’t love how we play this season. But, it is effective. We are the second best team so far. So far. I hope we will still be second best at the end of the season. If not, let’s assess how we can be better going forward. But how does your negativity assist the team at this stage?? We ain’t sacking Warne, so forget it. Try being supportive instead. Bolton and Barnsley are laughing at the prospect of us sacking Warne. Stop playing into their hands.

We are the 3rd best team based on points per game. 

[Chester40]

The two things that annoyed me most during the game were :

Ball was threaded to Hourihane in the middle of the pitch, if he'd turned he would have had room to run into. Instead he just passed it 20 yards backwards to a defender who under pressure passes it back to the keeper.

Bird collects the ball which has been cleared, Derby are on top,  he is facing the goal with a few yards to run into..he turns away and tries to slide a pass out wide that trickles out for a throw in.

They are our 'ball players' and seemed happy to leave the 'match winning' to our 'skillful' players- Wilson, NML, Barks..who all struggled to do that yesterday.

Defence largely looked solid. Adams worked his socks off ...really felt as a pair they contributed too little.  I know a lot will say its all down to Warne telling them to how to play but we just didn't look after the ball in midfield at all.

Edited February 25 by Chester40

[Tamworthram]

9 hours ago, Andicis said:

Correct. His remit is to get us up. He would have had two goes at it. 

Is his remit to get us promoted within 2 years? I doubt it.

I reckon his remit is aligned to DC’s ambitions - get us promoted and become an established Championship team within 5 years. I doubt there was any deadline on when promotion needs to be achieved but, if there was, I wouldn’t think it was the first two years given we would have restricted by the agreed business plan in all that time.

”Established Championship team” is open to interpretation but I think it probably means, at a minimum, avoid relegation or maybe avoid a serious battle against relegation. So, on that basis, if we were promoted after three seasons and were comfortable in the final season of Warne’s contract, he would have achieved DC’s short term objectives. 
 

Personally, I really don’t see it as black and white as no promotion = the sack. It depends entirely on the nature of our failure to go up this year. At one extreme, if we miss out on 2nd place on goal difference and narrowly lose the play off final then there is no way he would be sacked. Even if we finish as low as 6th and fail to make it through the play offs I wouldn’t be sacking him. 

[Mucker1884]

1 hour ago, IlsonDerby said:

We are the 3rd best team based on points per game. 

But second based on completed and confirmed results thus far... which is quite nice.

[Ram-Alf]

10 hours ago, Tamworthram said:

So if we lose on penalties in the play off final he should go? Seriously?

It feels like Groundhog Day with us repeating the same debate.

For me he should yes, It's called failure, PW would admit it too👍

Again I was at Belper yesterday, I was talking to 2 Man Utd fans they were gutted that Fulham had the nerve to beat them...wow talk about wealth and privilege.

In life you get what you deserve most of the time, The same goes for football, PW admitted he Failed last season and he said in his pre season interview that if we fail to get promoted this season "I've failed" or summat like that.

How many chances do you give a failure? 

[IlsonDerby]

I have to say - he’s scored some incredibly important goals for us - but it feels like CH always takes the easy option. Either a pass back to the defence or a lump up field. 
 

I want to see someone with his left foot and ability attempting defence splitting through balls and directing the tempo from the middle. 

[DavesaRam]

8 hours ago, DB83 said:

a) Attending football matches is not compulsory. If you don’t enjoy it, perhaps try doing something else on a Saturday afternoon. I promise you, you won’t be missed.

b) This is utter nonsense. We are second in the League. Any fan who works as part of a team that is second best out of 24 is not losing their job. They are probably getting a large bonus. The job of the players is to get us promotion. They may or may not achieve it, but they are on track so far.

c) May I ask what you were expecting for this season?? Win most games 5-0 and cruise to promotion?? We have only been promoted automatically once in the last 37 years, and now we have a great chance to make it twice. Two more away wins would make this our best away season ever. 20 more points from the last 12 games would make this our best season in modern times (in terms of total points and points per game since 3 points for a win; I’m not equating it to winning the entire League). We may not achieve that but goodness me, if this is the most negative you’ve ever been then I don’t know what to tell you. But it’s definitely a you problem, not the problem of the current players, manager and owner.

I did mot say “Warne Out”, although elsewhere in this thread I said I have journeyed back to that side of the argument.

What I, and many others actually want isn’t an endless string of 5 - 0 victories. All we want is for the team to turn up and play football to our strengths. Instead Warne sets us up to be like labourers doffing their caps to the landed gentry. Despite what it looks like after the vast majority of our matches we are better than this, and it is the opposition who should be worried about us and having to set up to best deal with our threat. To always send a team out with a predominance of defensive-minded players tells the opposition we are running scared.

We are capable of so much more, such as playing a good passing game. After the fans gave Warne a right bowlocking we went through a phase of keeping the ball on the ground and even using the misfield a bit more, which coincided with our good run. But that has cone to an end and we have reverted to aerial assault mode - and the run has come to an end. Funny hiw that works, and we’ve done it two seasons in a row.

And yet again we went ahead and then sat back, hardly laying a glove on them once we’d scored.

You are right to point out that our stats do look rather good, but with that absolute tosh we keep dishing up shouts from the rooftops just how bad this division is. We aren’t where we are because we are so good, just that we are not as bad as the rest of them.

Being second to everything in midfield is a case in point. So many times our clearance headers are deliberately headed up and forwards so the ball travels in an arc. Up and forwards takes a higher priority than controlling the ball and/or getting the ball to a team mate, like the opposition seem to manage almost every time. It us what led to the equaliser. Hourihane does it all the tome, not just with headers. The number of times his skill set consists of just looping thr ball up and forwards to nowhere near a team mate is ridiculous. And he can do it blind, as shown by the number of times he sends the ball backwards over his shoulder …… to no one. And so many times there is the opportunity to get the ball down and give it to a team mate. But no ….. up and over it is, and then back come the opposition.

And re not going to Wembley. It isn’t from not wanting us to get promoted. It is because having retired last August my income has more then halved. My wife’s childminding business was killed off by lockdown, and she has been stabbed in the back by the increase in the women’s pensionable age by a Government who care as much for the poor, sick and elderly as Warne does for attractive football. As such I cannot justify blowing a massive hole in my budget to watch the team throw away yet another opportunity to get promoted. I don’t have the money to gamble on the remote chance we might fluke a win.

It doesn’t mean I don’t want promotion - I’ve been a Ram since the early 1970’s, so I’ve seen some rubbish in that time. But I have never been so angry  as I am now.

 

[i-Ram]

8 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

Even if we finish as low as 6th and fail to make it through the play offs I wouldn’t be sacking him. 

Nor would I. I would expect him to resign.

[Tamworthram]

9 hours ago, Leicester Ram said:

Look, I’ll preface this by saying I originally wanted us to keep Rosenior and, if we don’t go up, I’d be interested in a new manager with a more attacking style of play. I also may be playing devil’s advocate a bit… but I can see why Clowes would keep Warne

You’re blowing valuable cash to sack a manager and his team when we’re primed to actually spend a decent wedge of money on the squad for the first time in years.

He’s still technically only had one full season and will have an opportunity to make the squad his own. He inherited Rosenior’s team so you could argue he deserves a chance with a squad that will be almost entirely his - Hourihane really isn’t a Warne player for example but Ebou Adams fits like a glove.

The playing staff may well want him to stay, can’t say for certain that Warne’s popular but they seem to be well motivated and getting results

He has been promoted multiple times before, we’ve improved on last season, we’re in automatics contention this year - who’s to say next year wouldn’t be the year we win the whole thing by ten points?

Also, if you sack him, he’ll be rocking up to Pride Park next season with Rotherham and all the evidence says they’ll be a serious promotion contender. If I’m Clowes, I’d have the worst case scenario in my head of watching Warne get promoted again while we waste a year trying to implement a new, more attractive playing style to satisfy the fans (who will then piss and moan about us passing it around the back)

Like I said, I’m not sold on Warne but I’m prepared for another season if it happens.

The fanbase loudly rejecting another year of “Warneball” in the fallout of this season is what would get him the sack imo there’s lots of reasons to stick with him

I was 100% with you until your final paragraph. Surely the fans acceptance or rejection of “Warneball” will be largely influenced by the results we are achieving. Assuming we’re still in league one, if it ain’t pretty again next season but we’re grinding out the results (meaning we’re very much in the mix) I don’t think the fans complaints will be that vocal (not at the games anyway). Even if we’re doing well (in terms of results) but the fans at the games are vocal in their complaints about the style of football, do you think he’d be sacked?

[Tamworthram]

3 minutes ago, i-Ram said:

Nor would I. I would expect him to resign.

Why if his remit is indeed to get us promoted but not necessarily within two years? 

[Zag zig]

11 hours ago, DB83 said:

I’m constantly surprised by the number of people on here who seem to be expecting and indeed demanding that we cruise to promotion. It very rarely happens; even Leicester are no longer cruising to promotion this season. We’ve only managed automatic promotion once in 37 years, and we’ve recently been at probably the lowest ebb in our history. It would have been nice to win today, but guess what, the teams in first and third place didn’t win either. We still are in with a good chance.

I’m totally with you on this, there is seldom anyone strolls the league, the opportunity to go up is clearly there though, as the league looks weaker this season and we’re definitely one of the stronger teams, that why we’re 2nd!

Just think there was a fair bit of frustration yesterday, Barnsley barely troubled us, we wasn’t outplayed, yet we gave away a lot of possession. Midfield was particularly guilty and final balls were quite disappointing into or around their box. We just didn’t create much did we?

Still think we’re going up myself, but losing Collins was a blow. Let’s see how we can gel with Gayle and hopefully Waghorn will be back to play a part too.

We can all worry about Warne’s style, what we lack when we’re up, we just need to get behind them for now, it’s still ours for the taking; others are equally slipping up.

Edited February 25 by Zag zig

[Ram-Alf]

10 hours ago, DavesaRam said:

It isn’t whether the players deserve to get there, its whether they deserve our support. 
 

I don’t fancy spending £200+ on an 18 hour day in order to collect a huge bagful of yet more disappointment. It took Warne several weeks to start communicating with the fans when we showed our frustration after the Stevenage matches, then he blathers on about how our backing really boosts the players who then repay us with dross like today.

If the fans who are in work did their day jobs like he and the players are doing theirs, the fans would be out of work in no time. So whole the fans struggle to pay their bills, Warne and the players continue to shuffle around half-heartedly on their way to becoming millionaires, if they aren’t there already.

The frustration is knowing that we are good enough to be sitting clear of Portsmouth if only Warne would let us.

This is the most negative I’ve been, and I was a Ram during the John Newman years, and the Tommy Docherty years.

GIVE YOURSELF A WOBBLE, WARNE AND LET THE BOYS PLAY FOOTBALL.

You never come across in your posts Dave as anything other than positive where DCFC are concerned, Your posts are honest and a joy to read, Very well presented and detailed, You're one of the posters I like to read where the game is concerned, This post has followed an ever increasing pattern this season, Poor football on the eye by players and coaches that "should" be doing better, Like all on here including myself..."this division is god damn awful", Anyone can beat anyone on the day, Even the better teams find life difficult, But to be entertained by a PW team is one step to far...imo 😉

[Ghost of Clough]

22 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

Is his remit to get us promoted within 2 years? I doubt it.

I reckon his remit is aligned to DC’s ambitions - get us promoted and become an established Championship team within 5 years. I doubt there was any deadline on when promotion needs to be achieved but, if there was, I wouldn’t think it was the first two years given we would have restricted by the agreed business plan in all that time.

”Established Championship team” is open to interpretation but I think it probably means, at a minimum, avoid relegation or maybe avoid a serious battle against relegation. So, on that basis, if we were promoted after three seasons and were comfortable in the final season of Warne’s contract, he would have achieved DC’s short term objectives. 
 

Personally, I really don’t see it as black and white as no promotion = the sack. It depends entirely on the nature of our failure to go up this year. At one extreme, if we miss out on 2nd place on goal difference and narrowly lose the play off final then there is no way he would be sacked. Even if we finish as low as 6th and fail to make it through the play offs I wouldn’t be sacking him. 

I'm fairly certain it was a 4 year plan for us to be established in the Championship upon Warne being appointed woth a 4 year contract.

That suggests 1 year in the Championship avoiding relegation, followed byba second 'establishing' ourselves as a side not fighting relegation. That in turn means promotion within 2 years (those season at the latest).

Of course, that doesn't mean plans can't change, but in this scenario, it would be 2 years in a row Warne has failed to meet expectations. Last year being a top 6 finish (with a chance of promotion), and this season being promotion.

[Tamworthram]

9 minutes ago, Ram-Alf said:

For me he should yes, It's called failure, PW would admit it too👍

Again I was at Belper yesterday, I was talking to 2 Man Utd fans they were gutted that Fulham had the nerve to beat them...wow talk about wealth and privilege.

In life you get what you deserve most of the time, The same goes for football, PW admitted he Failed last season and he said in his pre season interview that if we fail to get promoted this season "I've failed" or summat like that.

How many chances do you give a failure? 

Of course he would consider it a failure, of course he admitted he failed. What do you expect him to feel or say? 
 

However, my points are 1) assuming we don’t go up this year then the nature of our “failure” needs to be considered (which chairman in their right mind would sack the manager for finishing 3rd for example?) and 2) I suspect his remit is to get us promoted but not specifically within the first two years (which manager in their right minds, given a four year contract, would resign after two years if they narrowly missed out?).

”Failure” is a powerful word. If we don’t get promoted then PW will have “failed” against his personal hopes and expectations, so he’d obviously be disappointed, but he may not have “failed” against his chairman’s medium term expectations or the expectations laid out to him upon appointment.

[Ram-Alf]

5 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

Of course he would consider it a failure, of course he admitted he failed. What do you expect him to feel or say? 
 

However, my points are 1) assuming we don’t go up this year then the nature of our “failure” needs to be considered (which chairman in their right mind would sack the manager for finishing 3rd for example?) and 2) I suspect his remit is to get us promoted but not specifically within the first two years (which manager in their right minds, given a four year contract, would resign after two years if they narrowly missed out?).

”Failure” is a powerful word. If we don’t get promoted then PW will have “failed” against his personal hopes and expectations, so he’d obviously be disappointed, but he may not have “failed” against his chairman’s medium term expectations or the expectations laid out to him upon appointment.

Without stringing this PW Could, Would, Should debate I'll leave it here until the seasons end when this board will either explode into Raptures or disintegrate into the Abyss 👍  

[i-Ram]

19 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

Why if his remit is indeed to get us promoted but not necessarily within two years? 

To stop our Rotherhamification. A 7th and 6th place finish will have been failure. He will only buy further players who are happy to partake in kick and rush.

It’s my opinion. No more. I am going to spend my day usefully elsewhere now. I will leave you to debate what constitutes contractual success.

[angieram]

Does every matchday thread when we don't win have to deteriorate into the same tired debate about Warne? There's a thread for that.

[Chellaston Ram]

There’s a group of 6 of us that have season tickets and 4 of them are waiting towards the end of April to see whether there is the likelihood of championship football next season as they have had enough of being bored most home games. I have a feeling alot more people will feel the same. It’s the time of season when it’s a results business but crap football week in week out is only acceptable if you’re winning 

[Tamworthram]

5 minutes ago, Ram-Alf said:

Without stringing this PW Could, Would, Should debate I'll leave it here until the seasons end when this board will either explode into Raptures or disintegrate into the Abyss 👍  

Of course the reality is they’ll probably do neither. Getting promotion is only part one of the medium term goal so, it won’t be a case of “job done” so no reason to explode into raptures. Equally, failure to get promoted won’t mean we have failed our medium term goals (unless PW was given a short term goal privately which could result in a sacking or resignation 🤷🏻) so they won’t disintegrate into the abyss. The East Midlands might always be black and white but the boards reaction probably won’t be.