Paul Warne

[Bris Vegas]

I feel for Warne. I think if he keeps us up this season it will be the biggest managerial achievement here since Mac’s third place finish.

 

[Ambitious]

3 minutes ago, Srg said:

It’s just so difficult to know where to lay the “blame” for that.

I’ve made a few posts lamenting only signing 1 permanent outfield player below 28 this summer. I was expecting an influx of younger players who were still of a starting XI age this summer and it just really hasn’t happened. 

As you say, we’ll be perpetually turning over the squad and struggling to find any value as a selling club doing that.

Do we think the academy is that close to producing? Does Warne truly hate younger players that much? Or is the budget wrongly labelled as competitive? I’d say it’s probably closer to the latter with a smattering of mistrust of true youngsters when it’s a pressured environment - but it’s hard to say that completely when we aren’t seeing even 25/26 year olds coming either.  

There are players who played in League Two & League One last season who will go on to be worth eight figures and establish themselves in the Premier League. It has always happened and will always continue to happen.

Matt O'Riley who has just joined Brighton for £25m was a free agent who joined MK Dons in League One after a six month trial in 2021. I bet they couldn't believe their luck when within two seasons Celtic came along and offered £1.5m for him. 

These instances are very rare, but we don't give ourselves a chance by not signing any of them in that profile. It's got to be on the recruitment staff to find them. History shows us that it's inevitable.  

[Leicester Ram]

5 hours ago, Barney1991 said:

Be honest what player do you feel warne has got hold of and improved. I’d say Mendez has improved and defensively we look sound but individually I struggle to ascertain an improvement 

 I watched Bristol city the other day and can already see what an improvement they’ve made of bird and knight in a free flowing attack minds team 

So you’d say Mendez-Laing had his career revived, we’re defensively very strong and had the best goal difference in the league but you’ve drawn a completely arbitrary line in the sand that he doesn’t improve enough players

By all means I understand people have issues with the style of play, which while pragmatic is clearly effective, and sympathise with it.

But I’m not going along with the absolute s**** that gets peddled by the Warne out section of this forum when he is the manager that has done the most for this club in the past 20 years.

[May Contain Nuts]

Warne has been good at recognising a handful of players strengths and putting them in a position to achieve higher numbers than before, but that's not the same as actually improving the player especially when those numbers have been at League One level.

Playing McGoldrick as a CF for example, Bird as a 10. McGoldrick didn't score as many in L2 because Notts didn't play him as a striker, he was there to support Langstaff not to be the main man.  The players didn't improve as such but they were utilised in a position that made the best of their abilities. Eventually he did the same for NML but again he'd never played as a proper winger in League One having been wasted at RWB by Sheff Weds.

Trying to pass off Nyambe and Nelson off as players he's improved makes no sense whatsoever and casts doubt over the validity of some suggestions from Rotherham. You could add Sibley to the list though.

There have been just as many players he doesn't seem to 'get' though who look like they're not given a role that fits their natural ability, who feel shoehorned into playing a very defined role in Warne's system regardless of their individual qualities. Maybe it's part of their long term development 

Edited August 29 by May Contain Nuts

[Ambitious]

14 minutes ago, May Contain Nuts said:

Warne has been good at recognising a handful of players strengths and putting them in a position to achieve higher numbers than before, but that's not the same as actually improving the player especially when those numbers have been at League One level.

Playing McGoldrick as a CF for example, Bird as a 10. McGoldrick didn't score as many in L2 because Notts didn't play him as a striker, he was there to support Langstaff not to be the main man.  The players didn't improve as such but they were utilised in a position that made the best of their abilities. Eventually he did the same for NML but again he'd never played as a proper winger in League One having been wasted at RWB by Sheff Weds.

Trying to pass off Nyambe and Nelson off as players he's improved makes no sense whatsoever.

There have been just as many players he doesn't seem to 'get' though who look like they're not given a role that fits their natural ability, who feel shoehorned into playing a very defined role in Warne's system regardless of their individual qualities.

Nelson was in the bomb squad at Cardiff, relegated with Blackpool and then won our player of the year? Isn’t that an improvement. I’d say so.

McGoldrick also went from being the key man to a team pushing towards the playoffs in League One to being a support role for a team that finished bottom half in league two. 

I also completely agree with your point, but we know Warne isn’t a coach (as such) he’s very good at getting the best out of players by getting them into more impactful positions or playing to their strengths. Helping them with tactical awareness. 

Does that make their improvement or impact any less relevant? There’s plenty of talented players who consistently play below themselves because they don’t have the awareness or consistency. Does that make his management style any less relevant, either? I don’t think so.

[May Contain Nuts]

26 minutes ago, Ambitious said:

Nelson was in the bomb squad at Cardiff, relegated with Blackpool and then won our player of the year? Isn’t that an improvement. I’d say so.

McGoldrick also went from being the key man to a team pushing towards the playoffs in League One to being a support role for a team that finished bottom half in league two. 

I also completely agree with your point, but we know Warne isn’t a coach (as such) he’s very good at getting the best out of players by getting them into more impactful positions or playing to their strengths. Helping them with tactical awareness. 

Does that make their improvement or impact any less relevant? There’s plenty of talented players who consistently play below themselves because they don’t have the awareness or consistency. Does that make his management style any less relevant, either? I don’t think so.

Nelson made 44 appearances for Cardiff in the 2020/21 season where they finished 8th in the Championship. 33 the year before when they reached the playoffs. He only played half the season for Blackpool and spent 4 seasons playing at that level before dropping down so no, I don't think getting promoted with Derby in a terrible League One represents the peak of his abilities.

McGoldrick... yeah, that's what I said. They used him differently so any comparisons to his season at Derby are moot. That said if he'd genuinely improved as a player under Warne he'd surely have had a bigger impact upon dropping further? He was scoring goals in the PL 2 seasons prior to joining us and the last time he'd been down in League One his scoring rate was about same as it was here, he just played fewer games.

I didn't say there was no relevance to him helping players produce their best numbers, it's very much relevant to the point I was making - credit for what deserves it but without making out it's something more than it is.

Edited August 30 by May Contain Nuts

[brady1993]

30 minutes ago, Ambitious said:

Nelson was in the bomb squad at Cardiff, relegated with Blackpool and then won our player of the year? Isn’t that an improvement. I’d say so.

McGoldrick also went from being the key man to a team pushing towards the playoffs in League One to being a support role for a team that finished bottom half in league two. 

I also completely agree with your point, but we know Warne isn’t a coach (as such) he’s very good at getting the best out of players by getting them into more impactful positions or playing to their strengths. Helping them with tactical awareness. 

Does that make their improvement or impact any less relevant? There’s plenty of talented players who consistently play below themselves because they don’t have the awareness or consistency. Does that make his management style any less relevant, either? I don’t think so.

It may sound harsh and I know I've been frequently critical of Warne elsewhere but I think if he'd be fantastic as the assistant manager to somebody or had a coaching staff/recruitment people with a pretty different perspective who'd more effectively cover his weaknesses. He's clearly a good motivator and I think by most accounts he's a good manager from a non-football definition, I don't think it's surprising that players who've played well for him do talk well of him. More than anything it's why I feel bad being as critical as I am at times because I do think he's a good person, who looks after his people, fosters a good work environment and I believe he is doing what he thinks his best for the club.

Most of my trepidation though comes from that we needed someone who wouldn't just get us out of league one but someone who would use the time in league one to develop something we could continually progress from. A focus on bringing on the young players we had, beginning to bed in academy players as they break through and going after players with room to grow in the transfer market. So we don't have to have these big turnovers of players year after year. Yet when I look at the team now compared to the team he took over, I can't help but feel like we are in a worse spot. 

He inherited 5 players in Cashin, Bird, Knight, Thompson and Sibley. That given their age, ability demonstrated in the academy and that they'd all to some extent demonstrated that they play in the league above were a core that a team could be built around that was ready for the championship. Yet only two remain with one of them being very clearly thought of as a squad player at best, and we've not done a lot to backfill or progress in this element of the squad when we had the opportunity.

[Comrade 86]

3 hours ago, Andicis said:

Yeah, don't disagree on the older signings. Just feels like we're in a perpetual cycle of plugging holes with journeymen on the way down and that we've got a void of players improving for us to either sell on or benefit from. 

I don't think that's fair at all! We'd all love younger, promising players, with scope in improve, bags of pace and huge potential for growing in value. Sadly we've only seemingly got the budget for a few of them, unlike the bulk of clubs with whom we're competing for signatures. There's no doubt we have had to 'plug the holes with journeymen' in recent times, but I think it's pretty clear that we're at least trying to move away from that policy. I think it's pretty unfair on Warne and our owner to expect that transformation to take place across a single window anyway. In fact, I think it's a ridiculous stance, though I'm not suggesting that that is how you in particular think. And on the same point, who is to say that some of the young uns brought in won't improve and increase in value with a Championship season under the belts. 

 

[Comrade 86]

3 hours ago, Bris Vegas said:

I feel for Warne. I think if he keeps us up this season it will be the biggest managerial achievement here since Mac’s third place finish.

 

I dunno whether this is a serious post or not, but for the little I sense it's worth, I agree.

[Bris Vegas]

52 minutes ago, Comrade 86 said:

I dunno whether this is a serious post or not, but for the little I sense it's worth, I agree.

I am serious. I think Warne’s football last season was relatively crap considering the gulf in quality over the opposition. I think that deserved criticism.

But I can’t criticise Warne at all this season. IMO he is handicapped and if he manages to keep this squad of players afloat, regardless of playing style, he will deserve huge credit.

[TomTom92]

Just to throw in a devils advocate post. But if Warne is THAT good, howcome nobody above ourselves have gone in for him? 

[Andicis]

4 hours ago, Comrade 86 said:

I don't think that's fair at all! We'd all love younger, promising players, with scope in improve, bags of pace and huge potential for growing in value. Sadly we've only seemingly got the budget for a few of them, unlike the bulk of clubs with whom we're competing for signatures. There's no doubt we have had to 'plug the holes with journeymen' in recent times, but I think it's pretty clear that we're at least trying to move away from that policy. I think it's pretty unfair on Warne and our owner to expect that transformation to take place across a single window anyway. In fact, I think it's a ridiculous stance, though I'm not suggesting that that is how you in particular think. And on the same point, who is to say that some of the young uns brought in won't improve and increase in value with a Championship season under the belts. 

 

I don't disagree with any of the points above really, naturally all clubs are after these players and they were always likely to make a larger dent in an already tight budget. I suppose my feelings are that it's a pretty rough cycle to break, and that we may be stuck doing it for a while whether we want to or not. Transformation of course won't happen in a single window, I'm not suggesting so. I suppose I was hoping for some more progressive signings from the club this summer, Zetterstrom and Goudmijn are the two that fit the bill mostly (not suggesting the other signings are bad, just suspect there won't be much added value down the line). 

[Elwood P Dowd]

 

It looks like the start of this season is very similar to the  start of last season, we were dreadful against Blackpool 

 

[Archied]

6 hours ago, brady1993 said:

It may sound harsh and I know I've been frequently critical of Warne elsewhere but I think if he'd be fantastic as the assistant manager to somebody or had a coaching staff/recruitment people with a pretty different perspective who'd more effectively cover his weaknesses. He's clearly a good motivator and I think by most accounts he's a good manager from a non-football definition, I don't think it's surprising that players who've played well for him do talk well of him. More than anything it's why I feel bad being as critical as I am at times because I do think he's a good person, who looks after his people, fosters a good work environment and I believe he is doing what he thinks his best for the club.

Most of my trepidation though comes from that we needed someone who wouldn't just get us out of league one but someone who would use the time in league one to develop something we could continually progress from. A focus on bringing on the young players we had, beginning to bed in academy players as they break through and going after players with room to grow in the transfer market. So we don't have to have these big turnovers of players year after year. Yet when I look at the team now compared to the team he took over, I can't help but feel like we are in a worse spot. 

He inherited 5 players in Cashin, Bird, Knight, Thompson and Sibley. That given their age, ability demonstrated in the academy and that they'd all to some extent demonstrated that they play in the league above were a core that a team could be built around that was ready for the championship. Yet only two remain with one of them being very clearly thought of as a squad player at best, and we've not done a lot to backfill or progress in this element of the squad when we had the opportunity.

A point that is relevant is what is the average life span ( at a club ) for managers , I see all this stuff regards he should be concentrating on building for the future but the truth is if you are not producing today you are out PDQ , that’s one very difficult circle to square especially at a club in derby s position and even more so now we have stepped back up a level , it honestly makes me sad to see someone like warne given so much stick on here and so little acknowledgement for where he has got us so quickly , just take a look at evatt at Bolton , being a footbal manager is no easy task and for me Warne does it with some degree of integrity and decency too🤷🏻‍♂️

[Tamworthram]

1 hour ago, TomTom92 said:

Just to throw in a devils advocate post. But if Warne is THAT good, howcome nobody above ourselves have gone in for him? 

Has anybody said he is THAT good? I must have missed those posts.

I don’t think there is any doubt that we all agree that, at best he is unproven at Championship level (and above) or out of his depth at worst. It’s just that some of us are not quite ready to write him off yet (although the mitigating circumstances diminish as time goes on) whilst others probably wrote him off as soon as he was appointed.

[CornwallRam]

I find the strength of feeling against Paul Warne a bit perplexing. He's the first manager to get us promoted since Billy Davies. I suspect that he's got a lower net spend than any Derby manager since Tim Ward.

He's earned the right to a crack at the Championship and I believe the amount of criticism he gets is deeply unfair. Barrow was appalling, but every season throws up a couple of really bad performances. Pep's game would be a lot less beautiful if he had £1.82 to spend. 

[TomTom92]

19 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

Has anybody said he is THAT good? I must have missed those posts.

I don’t think there is any doubt that we all agree that, at best he is unproven at Championship level (and above) or out of his depth at worst. It’s just that some of us are not quite ready to write him off yet (although the mitigating circumstances diminish as time goes on) whilst others probably wrote him off as soon as he was appointed.

I'm not full Warne out myself and i like him as a person.

But the more i look at his record and what he brings to the table the more i steer towards wanting him gone. Of course others are willing to give him a bit longer, but on the Warne out/in spectrum there will be those who think he's the right man for the job 100%, so i guess my post is aimed at them.

[Ian Buxton's Bat]

3 hours ago, Bris Vegas said:

I am serious. I think Warne’s football last season was relatively crap considering the gulf in quality over the opposition. I think that deserved criticism.

But I can’t criticise Warne at all this season. IMO he is handicapped and if he manages to keep this squad of players afloat, regardless of playing style, he will deserve huge credit.

I agree....in the league

Last year I was with you @Bris Vegas - frustrated by the style of play when I think we had the players to put on more of a show and win more convincingly. When we did lose it was excruciating.....but we didn't lose very often.

If we win tomorrow with something of a repeat of the Boro game, the world will seem a better place and I think it may change a few views on Warne and the best approach for this squad in this league.

Would I be looking forward to the game tomorrow more if we had, say, prime gung-ho Harry Redknapp in charge? Of course I would. Do I think prime Harry Redknapp would stand a better chance of keeping us up? I don't. I think it would be a great watch - and a more enjoyable season.....until it ended in relegation as a result of being picked off on the counter each week by better players.

Similar arguments to last year - do we want to be entertained with free-flowing football and/or watch the team achieve their goal at the end of the season? Last year I thought we should have done both. This season I don't see how it's possible.

As for Barrow......excruciating......we should have put on a show and won convincingly with that gulf in class!

[TomTom92]

7 minutes ago, CornwallRam said:

I find the strength of feeling against Paul Warne a bit perplexing. He's the first manager to get us promoted since Billy Davies. I suspect that he's got a lower net spend than any Derby manager since Tim Ward.

He's earned the right to a crack at the Championship and I believe the amount of criticism he gets is deeply unfair. Barrow was appalling, but every season throws up a couple of really bad performances. Pep's game would be a lot less beautiful if he had £1.82 to spend. 

You could argue he had his crack at the Championship with Rotherham, although FWIW i agree he did deserve to lead us out for the first match of the season. However, what i will say is if in 3/4 matches time the football is still mind numbingly boring and we're bottom 3 then conversations about his position aren't unreasonable. 

There's some fans that wanted him gone a long time ago, i don't agree with that sentiment. But apart from being a likeable guy and having the ability to stumble us out of League 1 i don't have many positive things to say about what he brings to the table. I wish i did. 

Edited August 30 by TomTom92

[Tamworthram]

23 minutes ago, TomTom92 said:

I'm not full Warne out myself and i like him as a person.

But the more i look at his record and what he brings to the table the more i steer towards wanting him gone. Of course others are willing to give him a bit longer, but on the Warne out/in spectrum there will be those who think he's the right man for the job 100%, so i guess my post is aimed at them.

Good luck finding anyone in the “100% the right man for the job” club.

I’m still at the give him longer end of the spectrum but he does need to start answering some of his critics (many of which are valid regardless of the fact that he got us promoted last season) at some point. That might come this season with picking up a decent amount of points and playing more attractive and coherent football but, it’s possible we may need to settle for survival this year - ideally not just be the skin of our teeth. Obviously I’m hopeful for the former.

But, in answer to your original question, I would imagine, regardless of where us as fans are on the spectrum, he hasn’t done nearly enough yet to attract the attention of other clubs in the Championship and whilst league 1 teams may be interested in him (because of his L1 record) they can probably see that he wouldn’t yet be attracted in moving down a division to a smaller club (I know that will no doubt trigger the usual debate about what defines a “smaller” club but I reckon by pretty much any metric you may care to choose, there are no bigger clubs below us).

Edited August 30 by Tamworthram