Finance

[Tamworthram]

1 minute ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Is a £6.8m loss over 9 months sustainable?

Book value is not the same as worth. The squad had a £3.3m book value when Clowes took us out of admin - we later sold 2 players for the majority of that figure. When you add on the minimum fees expected for the like sof Cashin and Bird, then our total squad worth is significantly higher than it's book value.

After seeing the figures for the 9 month period, it's now reasonable to assume we'll have the highest wage bill in the league this season. Clowes will be expecting promotion from such outlay, so it's reasonable for fans to expect promotion too.

Quite probably but surely our recent history has taught us one thing - spending the most money doesn’t necessarily equate to promotion.

[G STAR RAM]

3 hours ago, Simmo’s left foot said:

£200 million in loans to MM would be the previous business. Nothing to do with the new company set up by David Clowes. To be fair to MM though, he did write off a huge amount of £ he "Loaned" to the club.

No there were not any loans of £200m by MM to the club which he wrote off, hence me pulling him up on it.

If I lend £100 to my brother to buy Rolls Royce shares, then Rolls Royce dont owe me £100.

[ariotofmyown]

35 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

No there were not any loans of £200m by MM to the club which he wrote off, hence me pulling him up on it.

If I lend £100 to my brother to buy Rolls Royce shares, then Rolls Royce dont owe me £100.

Well I'm going to post on twitter that Rolls Royce owe you £100. If challenged, I'll say someone I don't trust told me that, and I don't actually believe it.

[Comrade 86]

5 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

I like the poster celebrating their last minute equaliser and how it has derailed our play off push 😂

Their fans do seem quite annoyed again. All 7 of them.

[G STAR RAM]

8 hours ago, ariotofmyown said:

Well I'm going to post on twitter that Rolls Royce owe you £100. If challenged, I'll say someone I don't trust told me that, and I don't actually believe it.

Obviously only do that by dm though, you wouldn't want too many people knowing you've been rumbled...

[BathRam72]

11 hours ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Is a £6.8m loss over 9 months sustainable?

Book value is not the same as worth. The squad had a £3.3m book value when Clowes took us out of admin - we later sold 2 players for the majority of that figure. When you add on the minimum fees expected for the like sof Cashin and Bird, then our total squad worth is significantly higher than it's book value.

After seeing the figures for the 9 month period, it's now reasonable to assume we'll have the highest wage bill in the league this season. Clowes will be expecting promotion from such outlay, so it's reasonable for fans to expect promotion too.

I would argue that a good deal of the £6.8m was probably legacy payments for the likes of Beilik etc. To be where we are not having paid a fee for players since 2020 is pretty good I suspect. When you rely on freebies and loans, you only have a pick of a very small pool of players. When you can spend, that pool gets much bigger and better.

I will not complain about where we are based on the current finances.

[Ghost of Clough]

2 hours ago, BathRam72 said:

I would argue that a good deal of the £6.8m was probably legacy payments for the likes of Beilik etc. To be where we are not having paid a fee for players since 2020 is pretty good I suspect. When you rely on freebies and loans, you only have a pick of a very small pool of players. When you can spend, that pool gets much bigger and better.

I will not complain about where we are based on the current finances.

If the Bielik amount and legacy agent fees are deducted, the total is about £4.5m. However, this also incldues just over £1.4m in 'transfer profit' which will mostly be Birmingham's contribution towards Bielik - so back up to £5.9m. The difference between 9 months and 12 months won't be far off being linear - wages vs 4 more games of revenue and end of season handouts from the EFL. Let's say, £3m extra on wages and approx £2m in revenue. Still need to pay for general stadium and training ground costs too, but I'll ignore those for simplicity.
Total losses for the 12 month period would be back up to the £7m figure.

[trappatoni]

1 hour ago, Ghost of Clough said:

If the Bielik amount and legacy agent fees are deducted, the total is about £4.5m. However, this also incldues just over £1.4m in 'transfer profit' which will mostly be Birmingham's contribution towards Bielik - so back up to £5.9m. The difference between 9 months and 12 months won't be far off being linear - wages vs 4 more games of revenue and end of season handouts from the EFL. Let's say, £3m extra on wages and approx £2m in revenue. Still need to pay for general stadium and training ground costs too, but I'll ignore those for simplicity.
Total losses for the 12 month period would be back up to the £7m figure.

Seems high - I mean if we player wages are averaging £500k a year (including all costs - bit of a guess but I've tried to go on the high side) that's 14 players.   That basically means our income covers costs so long as we don't pay the first team.    

[trappatoni]

17 hours ago, Mihangel said:

You're overstating him slightly, he's an accountancy teacher. Professor he most certainly isn't, expert in football finance only in his own head.

He's a chartered accountant who has worked in insolvency and gone into academia - been a Principal Lecturer and is now at a Russell Group uni teaching accountancy.   You are at liberty to disagree with him but by any reasonable standards his experience qualifies him as an expert.    It's not like he's covering the Business Studies class at the local FE college. 

[duncanjwitham]

4 minutes ago, trappatoni said:

He's a chartered accountant who has worked in insolvency and gone into academia - been a Principal Lecturer and is now at a Russell Group uni teaching accountancy.   You are at liberty to disagree with him but by any reasonable standards his experience qualifies him as an expert.    It's not like he's covering the Business Studies class at the local FE college. 

Yet he's been completely wrong about multiple things related to us.  At one stage he was confidently insisting that the new rules meant we would have to pay HMRC 100% of what we owed them, for example.

[Ghost of Clough]

52 minutes ago, trappatoni said:

Seems high - I mean if we player wages are averaging £500k a year (including all costs - bit of a guess but I've tried to go on the high side) that's 14 players.   That basically means our income covers costs so long as we don't pay the first team.    

Not quite that extreme. It looks like we would have to cut our playing staff budget in half to breakeven.

We'll also have increased our sponsorship income this season (no shirt sponsor this season. What's hard to judge is the one offs - repairs to stadium and training ground that were sidelined over the previous few years.

[G STAR RAM]

1 hour ago, trappatoni said:

He's a chartered accountant who has worked in insolvency and gone into academia - been a Principal Lecturer and is now at a Russell Group uni teaching accountancy.   You are at liberty to disagree with him but by any reasonable standards his experience qualifies him as an expert.    It's not like he's covering the Business Studies class at the local FE college. 

 Not sure of many experts that make claims in their field of expertise and then when challenged on them blame it on journalists who's word they don't trust.

Basically, he is no more of an expert in reading a set of accounts than any other accountant.

[G STAR RAM]

In the interests of fairness and transparency, here is the actual exchange of messages...

[Chesterfield_Ram]

On 20/01/2024 at 23:47, uttoxram75 said:

He signed up to this forum just so he could infiltrate us and create division. He went after Mel Morris which was fair enough but he wanted to destroy Derby and put us out of business. He let his hatred of Mel want to kill our football club.

Absolute b******. Every Derby fan should treat this Bamford as an enemy of our club.

Completely disagree with this. Having started listening to his podcast when all of out troubles were starting to arise, he was someone who explained what was happening and what it meant. He's someone who is well respected in his area of work and works with facts. IMO his podcast is very informative and sheds light on club's finances when something is not quite right.

With hindsight a lot of what he has said has come to be true, including about other clubs as well. From my perspective the division that has been created by him involves 2 sides. One side are the people who have taken on board what he has said and can understand the issues now when they see the numbers involved. The other side are the people who feel attacked by him and believe that he has targeted the club. 

I don't believe that Maguire wanted to to destroy Derby at all. By listening to his show you can tell that he doesn't like the owners of clubs who put their clubs in danger. Bury, Reading, Southend, Sheffield Wednesday and Wigan Athletic are just some of the clubs whose owners he has called out and look at what has happen to them. Quite simply Mel Morris was the one who is most at fault for causing Derby to come so close to going out of business. All Maguire did was explain what Morris was doing and answering peoples questions about it.

The real enemies of our club should be Quantuma, who nearly sold the club to a fraud and treated the club like an endless pit of money when it came to their expenses. Gibson and Couhig from Middlesborough and Wycombe respectively for preying on a club in danger. And front and centre should be Morris, despite all the good with his investment in the academy and Rams TV for example, whose decisions put the club in jeopardy financially.

[G STAR RAM]

20 minutes ago, Chesterfield_Ram said:

Completely disagree with this. Having started listening to his podcast when all of out troubles were starting to arise, he was someone who explained what was happening and what it meant. He's someone who is well respected in his area of work and works with facts. IMO his podcast is very informative and sheds light on club's finances when something is not quite right.

With hindsight a lot of what he has said has come to be true, including about other clubs as well. From my perspective the division that has been created by him involves 2 sides. One side are the people who have taken on board what he has said and can understand the issues now when they see the numbers involved. The other side are the people who feel attacked by him and believe that he has targeted the club. 

I don't believe that Maguire wanted to to destroy Derby at all. By listening to his show you can tell that he doesn't like the owners of clubs who put their clubs in danger. Bury, Reading, Southend, Sheffield Wednesday and Wigan Athletic are just some of the clubs whose owners he has called out and look at what has happen to them. Quite simply Mel Morris was the one who is most at fault for causing Derby to come so close to going out of business. All Maguire did was explain what Morris was doing and answering peoples questions about it.

The real enemies of our club should be Quantuma, who nearly sold the club to a fraud and treated the club like an endless pit of money when it came to their expenses. Gibson and Couhig from Middlesborough and Wycombe respectively for preying on a club in danger. And front and centre should be Morris, despite all the good with his investment in the academy and Rams TV for example, whose decisions put the club in jeopardy financially.

See my above post.

I wouldn't say someone repeating what a couple of journalists allegedly told him, as someone who deals with facts, quite the opposite.

[Chesterfield_Ram]

1 hour ago, G STAR RAM said:

See my above post.

I wouldn't say someone repeating what a couple of journalists allegedly told him, as someone who deals with facts, quite the opposite.

99% of the time he uses facts that are there in black and white on companies house. However this falls into the 1% where the facts are not there on companies house as the club hasn’t published any accounts since 2016 or 2017. 
 

As the administrators report says £248,410,709 was either loaned to or the club owed (I’m not sure which), which was not claimed during the administration. I’d argue that by using a number of sources his argument would be stronger than just claiming to know this is the case. 

[Mihangel]

37 minutes ago, Chesterfield_Ram said:

99% of the time he uses facts that are there in black and white on companies house. However this falls into the 1% where the facts are not there on companies house as the club hasn’t published any accounts since 2016 or 2017. 
 

As the administrators report says £248,410,709 was either loaned to or the club owed (I’m not sure which), which was not claimed during the administration. I’d argue that by using a number of sources his argument would be stronger than just claiming to know this is the case. 

What about his last comments on Derby, that Mel Morris has "still had boots on the ground"?

[Curtains]

Been told the loss is just operating loss over the period. 

[G STAR RAM]

1 hour ago, Chesterfield_Ram said:

99% of the time he uses facts that are there in black and white on companies house. However this falls into the 1% where the facts are not there on companies house as the club hasn’t published any accounts since 2016 or 2017. 
 

As the administrators report says £248,410,709 was either loaned to or the club owed (I’m not sure which), which was not claimed during the administration. I’d argue that by using a number of sources his argument would be stronger than just claiming to know this is the case. 

There are facts available on Companies House in the administrators report, which he has even quoted.

The administrators does not say there was £248,410,709 loaned to the club.

The directors statement of affairs say there were creditors of £36m with only claims of £2m submitted in administration. 

MM may have been owed money by his other companies but nowhere is there anything that says he was owed in excess of £200m by our club...well other than these anonymous journalists that told our resident expert of course 😂

[Chesterfield_Ram]

1 hour ago, Mihangel said:

What about his last comments on Derby, that Mel Morris has "still had boots on the ground"?

Stephen Pearce? He never said Morris was running the club, just that there was someone who is still there from the Morris era.