Chesterfield_Ram Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 10 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said: I'm sorry but I believe that this is factually incorrect, unless you have some evidence of what happened after 30 June 2018? I don’t believe there is concrete evidence, as there have been no accounts since the date you mentioned (which created all the uncertainty), but I believe that Mel said himself this was the case. How much you believe of what he has to say is up to you, but this is all we have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Clough Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 1 hour ago, Chesterfield_Ram said: This is the table I was looking at. As it shows in the Clowes Developments accounts that were published over the weekend, CD bought Gellaw Newco 202 Limited which housed the companies named in the table. By following the numbers you can see that a substantial amount (shown in the bottom 2 rows) that unsecured non-football creditors (not HMRC as they are secured under the rules) could have claimed. It doesn't go into the specifics of whose owed what, but I presume this is where the sum mentioned by journalists and Maguire came from. Also, in further defence of Maguire he is not alone in what he has said about Morris writing off some of the debt. As for the table you produced. It is labelled as the statement of affairs in administration, which explains why these large sums are not present. This is due to them not being claimed during the administration, potentially due to whoever they are writing them off. Gellaw Newco 202 is the company which owns the stadium. This company was bought by Clowes Developments. This shouldn't be mixed up with Gellaw Newco 203 which owned Sevco 5112, which in turn owned The Club, The Academy, etc. Gellaw Newco 203 and Sevco 5112 are both dissolved. Clowes Developments also bought Derby County (The Rams) Limited, which bought the assets of The Club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 1 hour ago, Chesterfield_Ram said: Buying shares doesn’t make you a creditor. So the money mentioned in the table aren’t shares. MM puts £100m into Sevco as a directors/shareholders loan. Sevco buys £100m shares in DCFC. Sevco has a creditor (MM) of £100m. DCFC has no creditor. Not sure which part you are not grasping? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Clough Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 2 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said: MM puts £100m into Sevco as a directors/shareholders loan. Sevco buys £100m shares in DCFC. Sevco has a creditor (MM) of £100m. DCFC has no creditor. Not sure which part you are not grasping? I think the confusion is the 'joint administration' bit. For the benefit of those who don't know what this means, this is when the administrotrs handle multiple (related) administrations together for convenience (efficiency and reduced admin costs). Creditors are all managed collectively but registered seperately, however, each individual company is still treated as its own legal entity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crewton Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 42 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said: I'm sorry but I believe that this is factually incorrect, unless you have some evidence of what happened after 30 June 2018? I wish 😅 There are allot of mysteries when it comes to the club's finances and structure in Mel's time. For example, we don't know the real purpose of the Share Premium Account, how it arose or when exactly it was created. They usually contain the premiums paid for shares above their par value and how those funds can be used should be defined in the company's articles, but they're not usually permitted to be used to support losses in the business. The sum in the SP account shown in the SoA/Administrator's report is many times the value of the issued share capital though. The only significant shareholder was Mel. Why is there such a huge sum in the SPA? Was Mel buying shares at a huge premium? If so, why? There are so many unanswered questions - I suspect we'll never know the full story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 56 minutes ago, Crewton said: I wish 😅 There are allot of mysteries when it comes to the club's finances and structure in Mel's time... The only significant shareholder was Mel. Why is there such a huge sum in the SPA? Was Mel buying shares at a huge premium? If so, why? There are so many unanswered questions - I suspect we'll never know the full story. Wouldn't Stephen Pearce know the answer to this? jimtastic56 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crewton Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 1 minute ago, RoyMac5 said: Wouldn't Stephen Pearce know the answer to this? Presumably, as would Quantuma. jimtastic56 and RoyMac5 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LazloW Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 It’s all a bit… … to me. My big question to those in the know is… does any of this really matter? (Not in the sense that it shouldn’t be discussed - it’s interesting even I can’t follow it - but more in the sense of will any of it, even the £6.8m loss referred to right at the start, have any major effect on the club’s future, ability to trade, survive etc)?? By the by, has the trollmeister general Maguire deleted his account? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 1 hour ago, LazloW said: By the by, has the trollmeister general Maguire deleted his account? Hope not, still waiting for an answer as to why he is repeating alleged comments made by some un-named journalists which, given the information available, he must know to be untrue if he is the 'football finance expert' he seems to enjoy being marketed as... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elwood P Dowd Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 (edited) 14 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said: Hope not, still waiting for an answer as to why he is repeating alleged comments made by some un-named journalists which, given the information available, he must know to be untrue if he is the 'football finance expert' he seems to enjoy being marketed as... In Accountancy Today magazine it says that there are 3 types of finance experts those that can count those that can’t count 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 Edited January 23 by Elwood P Dowd G STAR RAM 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 4 hours ago, Crewton said: I wish 😅 There are allot of mysteries when it comes to the club's finances and structure in Mel's time. For example, we don't know the real purpose of the Share Premium Account, how it arose or when exactly it was created. They usually contain the premiums paid for shares above their par value and how those funds can be used should be defined in the company's articles, but they're not usually permitted to be used to support losses in the business. The sum in the SP account shown in the SoA/Administrator's report is many times the value of the issued share capital though. The only significant shareholder was Mel. Why is there such a huge sum in the SPA? Was Mel buying shares at a huge premium? If so, why? There are so many unanswered questions - I suspect we'll never know the full story. This information is readily available on Companies House. The share premium at date we entered administration was the same as the last accounts filed so can be unpicked from all previous accounts and share allotment documents on Companies House. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crewton Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 1 hour ago, G STAR RAM said: This information is readily available on Companies House. The share premium at date we entered administration was the same as the last accounts filed so can be unpicked from all previous accounts and share allotment documents on Companies House. Do go on....? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gee SCREAMER !! Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 I'd save yourself the bother and let Popadopolous scrutinise them for you. He's in his basement and will release his findings in a week or so. Crewton 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 5 minutes ago, Crewton said: Do go on....? Not sure what more there is to say? Share premium is when shares are purchased at higher than nominal value. The share premium account increased every time MM converted his (or should I say the parent company's) loans into equity. Why only so many shares were issued and purchased at a premium I don't know. There was no special rights attached to the shares. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerbyAleMan Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 (edited) Lets put it this way what Morris did has financially f***** us up for years to come, we have not got a pot to piss in, thanks to that snake called Mel Morris. Hope the b****** goes bankrupt one day. He nearly ruined our famous club Derby County formed in 1884. Thank god Clowes saved this great club. Once A Ram Always A Ram Edited January 23 by DerbyAleMan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 2 minutes ago, DerbyAleMan said: Lets put it this way what Morris did has financially f***** us up for years to come, we have not got a pot to piss in, thanks to that snake called Mel Morris. Hope the b****** goes bankrupt one day. He nearly ruined our famous club Derby County formed in 1884. Thank god Clowne saved this great club. Once A Ram Always A Ram To be fair, it probably hasn't, imagine we are in a much better financial position than most Championship and Premier League clubs now. Agree about Clowes though. Tamworthram 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McMuffin Posted January 25 Share Posted January 25 Is this anything to worry about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamworthram Posted January 25 Share Posted January 25 14 minutes ago, McMuffin said: Is this anything to worry about? Does Clowes also own Gellaw? If so, what would be the point in one of his companies charging another more than they can afford? Maybe there is a clause in there that allows the rent to increase if/when we get to the Championship (and beyond). I know for a fact that a charity that I am a trustee of has a lease agreement that means the annual rent rises and becomes linked to turnover if the turnover reaches a certain trigger. I’m not worried provided the arrangement is within EFL rules (maybe the rules say it needs to be a fair market rate, I haven’t checked). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Clough Posted January 25 Share Posted January 25 31 minutes ago, McMuffin said: Is this anything to worry about? Gellaw 202 (the stadium) and The Club are both owned by Clowes Developments. The £750k is essentially moved from the left hand to the right hand. I believe a 'real rent' has to be paid for P&S purposes. angieram 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted January 25 Share Posted January 25 (edited) 57 minutes ago, McMuffin said: Is this anything to worry about? .... Pops this little 'rider' in at the end of the clickbait thread when most have stopped reading! Edited January 25 by RoyMac5 Crewton 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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